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teagone posted:TLJ is a remix of ESB and ROTJ. I hope Rian Johnson intentionally did this because Episode 9 (which he initially wrote) is not going to reference any past Star Wars movie, and anyone rewriting the movie will be forced to come up with something new. Or maybe Episode 9 will recreate the Prequels. Watch as the young and impulsive Kylo Ren is manipulated into destroying The First Order that is consumed by their own power and hubris. Might even involve the stormtroopers turning on their masters. It fits the pattern too: TFA recreated A New Hope, TLJ recreated two movies, so Episode 9 will recreate all 3 prequel movies.
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Dec 18, 2017 08:57
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The MSJ posted:I hope Rian Johnson intentionally did this because Episode 9 (which he initially wrote) is not going to reference any past Star Wars movie, and anyone rewriting the movie will be forced to come up with something new. Episode 9: Three Hours Of Youngling Slaughter
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Dec 18, 2017 09:05
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Ramadu posted:tto quote an earlier poster who i cant find again Other than the subversion of literally all those plot details, and quite a few missing ones, such as the extended flip-around of ROTJ and the entire final act, that's completely true. Maybe you would have enjoyed this movie if you weren't so intellectually lazy.
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Dec 18, 2017 09:11
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Mandrel posted:I like all the Star Wars movies and think this one is pretty bad. I just saw it and this is basically what I thought. TLJ suffers from some serious Rogue One syndrome. It's more creative and by all rights should be a better movie than TFA, but it somehow manages not to be. There are many flashes of brilliance in this movie. Unfortunately--and this is extremely baffling and, believe me, genuinely surprising to me, because Rian Johnson's episodes of Breaking Bad are some of my favorites--it's just a generally poorly directed movie. I can go in to more depth later, but on the most surface of levels this movie is just too long. It drags. Johnson fails on one of the most basic levels, presumably because he's just completely unwilling to kill his darlings. He needs to take Kylo Ren's advice: Kill it. Shorten some scenes, cut some filler sequences, make some tough decisions. That's what being a director is about. And this movie seems to be getting praised a lot for zigging where TESB and ROTJ zag, and I will give credit where credit's due. But it's done in such a systematic and obsessively self-conscious manner that it's really just as beholden to the originals as TFA was, only in a different way. I know I'll get accused of being impossible to please, but TLJ is really just as tiresomely meta as TFA and just as hopelessly fixated on the OT. Why can't we have a movie that genuinely blazes new trails and deals with new issues without it being a two-and-a-half hour meditation on Star Wars as a cultural touchstone? Star Wars is supposed to be about larger issues, about ideas that are timeless, about religion, history, politics, ethics, philosophy, culture, anthropology. Star Wars isn't old enough or significant enough to be about itself. In fact, it only makes itself less significant when it is. And at the end of the day, what's the main twist? Kylo kills Snoke so he can join with Rey in reshaping the galaxy into his own personal vision of perfection? That's exactly what Vader wanted to do! He just never got the chance. We're not dealing with new themes or philosophical issues here, not really. It's a purely mechanical deviation in the plot of ROTJ. Now, that is something, but it's not exactly what people are making it out to be. And that's what most of the zags are. They're zags for their own sake, rather than for any obvious or burning thematic reason that actually makes sense. Sure, Kylo says he wants to destroy the past and create something new apart from the Jedi or the Sith. What does that actually mean, though? I seriously doubt we'll get a coherent answer to that. It's just something that sounds bold and fresh and iconoclastic. Unless they intend to abandon the essential underpinnings of the series and end the saga with some nihilistic claim about the fundamental meaningless of the distinction between good and evil and mumble mumble shades of gray--which is already the stated philosophy of the Sith, anyway--then I'm not sure where they can possibly be going with it. Now, like I said, there's good stuff in this movie. Luke's speech to Rey about what the Force is, that was pretty good. The scene with Rey in the cave encountering multiplicities of herself was pretty good. The scenes of Rey and Kylo communing with each other were good. Oscar Isaac, as always, was unfairly handsome and rugged. John Boyega is always an affable presence (too bad he's still being mostly wasted as a character). I liked the actress who played Rose. I liked the alien drunkenly stuffing coins into BB-8 so that BB-8 could later weaponize them as projectiles; that was a nice bit of unrepentant slapstick goofiness that was a welcome reprieve from the jarring, conspicuously modern, self-aware Whedon-esque humor that continues to pervade these new films (all six of the originals are almost completely devoid of hip humor, relying instead on that of the Vaudevillian and screwball variety, something which actually goes a long way to lending them their characteristic old-fashioned flavor). Ditto BB-8 struggling to plug up the electrical leaks inside Poe's starfighter with all his various appendages, that gave me a good chuckle. I liked the all-red aesthetic of Snoke's throne room.
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Dec 18, 2017 09:23
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The MSJ posted:I hope Rian Johnson intentionally did this because Episode 9 (which he initially wrote) is not going to reference any past Star Wars movie, and anyone rewriting the movie will be forced to come up with something new. It's going to be very hard to make something with NO parallels to any past Star Wars movie. Even if you're not taking the same exact story structure, you're still drawing on a shared set of genre tropes and dramatic conventions. It's like poetry, it rhymes, etc. I'd be happy if going forward they had The Last Jedi's mix of old and new- it has its familiar beats but it still feels like a modern movie.
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Dec 18, 2017 09:23
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Cnut, today, I found myself talking about the AOTC arena say and saying "Well, it's all about the repressed sexuality between Obi-Wan, Anakin and Padme. You see, Anakin is riding a big charging bull..." I'm fairly sure I once said your reading was stupid. I apologize.
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Dec 18, 2017 09:49
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Theory why some people don't like this. Some people adored the OT, rewatching them over and over and getting their feel goods. TFA touched on those feels and did nothing new, re-used all the same beats, and lots of fan service. I needed it, a ton of other people needed it. TLJ did none of that. I wasn't looking forward to TLJ AT ALL, expecially after Rogue One (loved it, showed that something different in SW could be great) because I was expecting the same beats to be followed due to how things were expected to happen. TLJ took everything I expected and crapped all over it, handed out something different, and was great for it. TLJ wasn't touching on those old familiar feels and some people hated it for it. I freaking loved it.
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Dec 18, 2017 10:06
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Or, more succinctly; Some people hated Empire when it came out too. Because it wasn't what they were expecting. Luckily time proved their opinions wrong.
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Dec 18, 2017 10:17
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i'll say this for rian johnson he knows how to make amazing moments. i cant remember the last time a movie made me go "holy poo poo" like that, let alone several times
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Dec 18, 2017 10:36
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Ramadu posted:when i got home it was at 78% and now its 58% drat how many did you write???
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Dec 18, 2017 10:36
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cuntman.net posted:drat how many did you write??? not enough!!! people keep going to see it!!!!!
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Dec 18, 2017 10:52
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Milky Moor posted:Cnut, today, I found myself talking about the AOTC arena say and saying "Well, it's all about the repressed sexuality between Obi-Wan, Anakin and Padme. You see, Anakin is riding a big charging bull..." That's okay. If it makes you feel better, I'm actually in your boat when it comes to the people in this thread who were further claiming that this  was ejaculation imagery. Even I think that's a stretch. Tommy 2.0 posted:Theory why some people don't like this. That wasn't my problem at all. My problem was that most of the differences are superficial differences, because almost all that's being subverted is the mechanical progression of the plot. Luke losing faith in the Jedi is one genuine subversion, but to be honest I was never too keen on that simply because I think it's wildly out of character for Luke, which might even have been forgivable were it not for the fact that it doesn't even add anything all that new to the saga. We already saw in the PT that the Jedi were arrogant and short-sighted and obsessed with their own power. We already saw the Jedi fear a Chosen One's potential for evil, alienating him and ironically pushing him into the arms of evil. We already saw what it looked like for the Jedi to fail and to have to retreat into exile knowing that they and their ways were at fault. We already saw the last Jedi have to await a new hope who would restore the Jedi to what they were supposed to be. Luke's whole arc in the OT is about Luke becoming better than the Jedi of old and thereby redeeming their failures. The only new wrinkle here is that Luke initially doesn't want to help the new hope, because he's lost his faith. Except, then his faith is restored and he does want to help, all because Yoda's ghost suddenly pops up and tells him failure is a part of learning, which apparently Luke never realized despite all his own failures in the OT? It's not a super deep arc. And again, we've pretty much seen this all before. The idea that failures are things that can be learned from is frankly not that new or strong of a theme to build Old Luke's entire arc around, especially given what his character has already gone through, and the fact that his failures turned out to be the exact same failures as the old Jedi's. What if the state of the galaxy in the ST was completely different, and Luke had to face completely new issues and challenges which his forebears had never faced before? What if the conflict and character development arose out of that? I don't know, is that really that dumb of an idea? As it stands, Luke's entire arc in this movie just feels like Rian making an admittedly valiant effort to somehow make the lame set-up J.J. gave him worthwhile and meaningful. But it doesn't work. But really, the main thing is that this movie just isn't constructed very well. It's extremely unfocused, and gets lost in the weeds with extraneous sideplots, scenes that go on longer than they have to, and characters that don't need to exist. The whole Canto Bight diversion isn't integrated very well into the movie and probably more than anything else contributes to throwing the whole thing out of whack. But also, the whole arc involving Poe Dameron and Laura Dern's character wasn't compelling enough to justify all the time spent on it. By the time we even get to the salt planet, it feels like the movie should have been over. M_Gargantua posted:Or, more succinctly; Some people hated Empire when it came out too. Because it wasn't what they were expecting. Luckily time proved their opinions wrong. It definitely wasn't what I was expecting. Based on the way people behind-the-scenes were talking it up, I expected it to be way weirder and more different. Cnut the Great fucked around with this message at 11:08 on Dec 18, 2017 |
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Dec 18, 2017 11:02
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Tommy 2.0 posted:Theory why some people don't like this. Talked with some people at work today and I was amazed at how vocal they were in how much they hated it. One guy even said that the people who hadn't seen it would be better off watching Episode 1 and Jar Jar Binks again. I'm a sad old Star Wars fan who after decades of films, videogames, books and spinoffs has seen all the standard tropes repeated fifteen times over, and I'm generally is not interested in retreading the well yet again. This played against all my expectations and I think it's a much better film than TFA and Rogue One. It will be interesting to see how it holds up to repeat viewings now the surprise factor is out of the way.
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Dec 18, 2017 11:06
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teagone posted:TLJ is a remix of ESB and ROTJ. I much prefer this than essentially copying every story element like TFA did with ANH. Also, I really liked how Yoda in TLJ looked like the puppet Yoda from the OT. It was a great symbolic gently caress you to the prequels.
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Dec 18, 2017 11:31
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TLJ does this thing where it feels like every plot has one or two more beats than it needs. Take for example, the 'battering ram cannon'. It feels like it could've been cut down. It's there not to blow down the door, not really, but to enable Finn's abortive heroic suicide. Finn could still have made a suicide attack on the walkers. Y'know, those big new walkers with the big guns that presumably could bring down the old, salt-corroded door, right? As it is, both the cannon and the walkers feel unimpressive. Hell, you could have Kylo cut through the door, which'd be a nice callback to how terrified the Trade Feds were in TPM when Qui-Gon began doing exactly that. As it is, it's this cannon that shows up just to put a hole in the door and give Finn and Rose a moment. I can't even remember what happens to it. Did the Falcon destroy it?
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Dec 18, 2017 11:40
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viral spiral posted:I much prefer this than essentially copying every story element like TFA did with ANH. Not just looked like him, but sounded and acted like him too. Hobbling like an old man and giggling with mischevious glee as he imparts unconventional wisdom. Far throw from the prophetic serious man he was in the prequels.
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Dec 18, 2017 11:44
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Cnut the Great posted:That's okay. If it makes you feel better, I'm actually in your boat when it comes to the people in this thread who were further claiming that this The Last Jedi is definitely all about its four mentor characters. Burnt-out masters, ground down by decades of war, looking for proteges who won't repeat old mistakes, and while dismayed by failure, recognize that it is unavoidable and necessary. They are all eventually surpassed. Not everything benefits from being cerebral and challenging to parse. Star Wars has from the beginning stood as a gateway drug to less accessible media and ways of thinking. Its great strength is that it's digestible and doesn't attempt to mystify you, but mines strong concepts. Milky Moor posted:TLJ does this thing where it feels like every plot has one or two more beats than it needs. Cannon to right of them, Cannon to left of them, Cannon in front of them Volleyed and thundered; Stormed at with shot and shell, Boldly they rode and well, Into the jaws of Death, Into the mouth of hell Rode the six hundred.
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Dec 18, 2017 11:45
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The whole point of that scene is that it's completely unwinable. Poe and crew go on the attack and that fails. Which leads Finn to stop being a coward and "do what's right" but Rose stops him because ultimately it won't solve the real problem and he'll be dead and she clearly has feelings for him. "Don't fight what you hate, save what you love" And then Poe realizes they can't beat the thing. Luke comes in to distract the first order and Poe realizes he's giving them a chance to escape and then decides to lead the surviving resistance to safety instead of fighting and dying. He became a leader instead of a battle hungry hero.
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Dec 18, 2017 11:49
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Milky Moor posted:TLJ does this thing where it feels like every plot has one or two more beats than it needs. Definitely agree there. The whole salt planet bit felt like it was an awkward forced homage / inverse to the Hoth battle, ending the film instead of starting it. For me it's the part where the films length caught up with me and started to be exhausting. We'd already seen the transports escape a rebel base at the start of the film as a homage and another seemed unnecessary and unoriginal. Thankfully Luke showing up turned the film back around.
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Dec 18, 2017 11:59
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This movie felt really bloated, like they had too much money and decided to keep adding an expensive set piece every time they were done with one. I had a lot of problems with Rogue One but that third act was sumptuous for me. Easily one of my favorite from the Star Wars movies. I don't think I particularly cared for any of the space battles here.
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Dec 18, 2017 14:00
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viral spiral posted:I much prefer this than essentially copying every story element like TFA did with ANH. Rian Johnson totally owned those libtards
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Dec 18, 2017 14:37
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yoda looked like the ot yoda because that was the oldest yoda in the timeline. That is the yoda who turned into a force ghost.
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Dec 18, 2017 14:42
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euphronius posted:yoda looked like the ot yoda because that was the oldest yoda in the timeline. That is the yoda who turned into a force ghost. sci-fi is pretty inconsistent if when special effects change how something looks movie to movie if you are supposed to gloss over it or if something really changed diegetically. (see: the back and forth on that point with star trek and klingons)
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Dec 18, 2017 14:48
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I guess I'm a little confused by the unfocused complaints. It borrows from the New Hope formula of setting up a problem and mostly following that problem to completion. And honestly, the navigational tracker as well as the war of attrition is a really good interesting throughline and nice way to avoid another Death Star. The film has two plots that merge well in the end, and it ultimately has five locales. I get how the salt planet stuff feels extraneous, but I think it's intentionally so. The film is literally supposed to be over at this point because the movie already covered not how you thought this one would end, but how the final film would end. After covering the familiar beats, evil prevails anyway, and Kylo doesn't believe in the "they blow you up today, you blow them up tomorrow" philosophy. Imagine if after the Death Star was destroyed at the end of A New Hope Vader just called in a relentless airstrike on the Rebel Base and kept throwing everything they have until it's gone. The stakes felt very high during that scene because Kylo doesn't give a poo poo about strategy or the film's length. He's going to kill them no matter what it takes. It elevates him as an antagonist and as someone very different than Vader or Palpatine. Also, it's a dope sequence. The Luke stuff is pitch perfect, Rose's line before she passes out is one of a few moments of the movie that transcends space magic and actually resonates with what it means to resist. The homage aspect is there, but once again things are muddled. It is a homage to Hoth, but it happens at the end of the film. The AT-ATs are completely meaningless compared to Luke. I think a lot of us expected Rey to be at her lowest point at the end of the film just like Luke was at Empire, but instead she seems to be at her most free and powerful. The film gives one last nod to broken expectations with her rescuing the team with the Falcon as opposed to her being rescued by it ala Luke. There is a lot there to subtly get across that Luke did find success through his failure. Rey isn't reliving Luke's trauma from Empire. She doesn't leave Kylo's attempt to neg her into the darkside broken, but empowered. It's a Star Wars movie where Star Wars is broken down and put back together. Timeless Appeal fucked around with this message at 15:10 on Dec 18, 2017 |
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Dec 18, 2017 15:08
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euphronius posted:yoda looked like the ot yoda because that was the oldest yoda in the timeline. That is the yoda who turned into a force ghost. Oh yeah? Well how do you explain the Hayden Christensen ghost in ROTJ?? Also, looking back Yoda's line about "Lots of wisdom in there, but nothing Rey doesn't already have" is pretty great given that reveal at the end.
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Dec 18, 2017 16:01
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Hobo Clown posted:Oh yeah? Well how do you explain the Hayden Christensen ghost in ROTJ?? Ask yourself who died in Return of the Jedi, Darth Vader or Anakin Skywalker
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Dec 18, 2017 16:03
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Waffles Inc. posted:Ask yourself who died in Return of the Jedi, Darth Vader or Anakin Skywalker Been a while since I've seen ESB but aren't they the same dude?
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Dec 18, 2017 16:04
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Hobo Clown posted:Been a while since I've seen ESB but aren't they the same dude? Yes
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Dec 18, 2017 16:05
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Lord Hydronium posted:First impressions of the score are that while Williams unfortunately didn't do anything new (that I noticed, there may have been some minor themes), it uses the TFA themes and other existing material to good effect. Rey's theme, Kylo's theme, and the March of the Resistance are used well throughout, Leia's theme and the Jedi Steps get some nice moments, and the biggest surprise was Luke and Leia's theme. I'm listening to it by itself now, so we'll see how it stacks up. Here's a good list of leitmotifs in Star Wars music: seems like mainly a lot of recycling in the new films, though the stuff around Kylo Ren is good https://drive.google.com/file/d/1xJ0Jj-mLfOPUCtcAm_HDGIkFwvHL5gbX/view
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Dec 18, 2017 16:06
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When Hayden Is 60 years old Lucas will edit back in an old Hayden.
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Dec 18, 2017 16:06
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Hobo Clown posted:Been a while since I've seen ESB but aren't they the same dude? They are not
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Dec 18, 2017 16:08
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It actually works because the original force ghost Luke saw wasn't a bald pale monster with no arms or legs either. Even in the original the force ghost was never supposed to be the Vader who died on the second Death Star.
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Dec 18, 2017 16:10
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Pretty sure Anakin died in Episode 3 I'm still in shock about the reveal in TLJ. Can't believe Porg was Rey's father.
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Dec 18, 2017 16:15
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UmOk posted:I'm still in shock about the reveal in TLJ. Can't believe Porg was Rey's father. It does make sense when you think about it though.
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Dec 18, 2017 16:17
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I fell down a youtube hole when I was watching The last Jedi reviews, and at the bottom I found this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jNz1cBr2c8 Star Wars : The Blackened Mantle. Someone re-cut the entire prequel trilogy into one movie, using the Japanese dub and re-writing some subtitles to make a new , good plot. Honestly, I hate stuff like this, but I got so into it that I was almost late for work this morning. Ghetto Prince fucked around with this message at 16:37 on Dec 18, 2017 |
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Dec 18, 2017 16:27
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Like are the Knights of Ren just nobodies? Shouldn’t they have showed up by now?
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Dec 18, 2017 16:34
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Samara posted:Like are the Knights of Ren just nobodies? Shouldn’t they have showed up by now? Maybe they were the red guards?
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Dec 18, 2017 16:36
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My personal hypothesis is that the handful of students who left Luke's training temple with Ben became the Knights of Ren. TLJ had a lot packed into it already; I think they should show up in IX, though. I like that they're a group of Darksiders with a new (to the films, anyway) organizational structure, and I really want to see something interesting done with them next time.
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Dec 18, 2017 16:50
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Saw this last night and adored it. I have never been a huge Star Wars fan. I find the original trilogy to be fun, but not something I would rewatch, and the prequel trilogy to be a bit uneven and strangely wooden. These last two films on the other hand have been wonderful for me! I loved this film. It has one of my most favourite moments out of all the cinema I have ever seen in it: That silent hyperdrive destruction moment. Goodness thinking about it makes me lose my breath all over again. It was shot and presented beautifully. It is something I have always wondered about when involving hyperdrives in sci-fi films and stories and this is the first time my questions were answered. That it was silent as well made it so powerful and ominous and I just cannot get over it or explain how it affected me. I am very eager to see where they go next!
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Dec 18, 2017 16:51
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Were the Knights of Ren not the people that Ben and Rey murked in Snoke's throne room?
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Dec 18, 2017 16:58
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