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World Famous W posted:Still not really playing but just keeping tabs on game's development. Boo to the death of always eating the purple. Yeah, I saw a bunch of posts and clicked expecting to find out what stupid thing the devs did now or the tournament starting or whatever. But removing eating the purple is way too much. Goddamn. Guess I really am just playing hellcrawl from now on.
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Dec 18, 2017 06:21
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What's frustrating is the mutation reform was actually good! Changing cmut and benemut to be the one pot was actually a great change because instead of going all purple being "fun, but bad" it was actually better to juggle around a small set of mutations than to have none. But like IK said, purple chunks as a way to start the mutation train rolling were a key part of it. I actually am a often-defender of the crawl team because I really do believe in the whole removing unnecessary choices thing. But purple chunks objectively functioned in a different way than mutation potions and the mutation game had a lot more meaningful choice with them than without. This goes against their dev philosophy because now the meaningful choice for mutation potions is clear - you must hoard them exactly the way you used to hoard cMut. Whereas with purple chunks, you could make the choice to try to highroll good mutations with the potions as your fallback, at the expense of having fewer of them to clear malmutations later. It tremendously shifts the balance if you can't START the process by eating purple chunks, and it was even more interesting because chunks rot, so you have to choose QUICKLY. I don't agree when everyone complains about removing the kitsch because I've done a lot of Crawl LPs and I loving hate explaining poo poo like "Oh, pizza is just another food with a funny name, it doesn't do anything different, vegetarians and carnivores can both eat it because even though the pizza has different cosmetic flavors when you eat, it will always be an appropriate topping for your food mutations". But this was not kitsch, this was a robust subsystem they finally loving got right and then ruined by assuming "gain one random mutation from a time-sensitive source" and " removes 2-6 mutations, adds 1-3 random mutations, and adds 1 good mutation" are so similar as to be redundant. It's like saying that you bought a ten gallon jug of bleach, so you threw away the soap dispensers in the bathroom because there's no point having two things that kill germs.
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Dec 18, 2017 06:28
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Ah guys it's just dead, it's time to let go 
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Dec 18, 2017 06:56
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tote up a bags posted:Ah guys it's just dead, it's time to let go This dead dumb game? Yeah, basically
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Dec 18, 2017 07:27
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Please make adding in everything that was stupidly removed a goal of hellcrawl, hellmonk
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Dec 18, 2017 07:35
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Hellcrawl feature request: Island of Misfit Cuts, which has a random assortment of things no longer in Crawl
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Dec 18, 2017 07:36
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Bring back boulder beetles and make their attacks mutate you. This seems like the easiest solution.
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Dec 18, 2017 08:17
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Boulder beetles ruled and their removal was something that made it clear that the game having soul and charm was not a dev goal
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Dec 18, 2017 08:21
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The only way I would support removing purple chunks is if all other food was also removed and it was just a side casualty. This just sucks. I'm actually reconsidering whether I want to play this tournament or just hold off until the next version where it might get fixed (because it's probably not getting fixed before January's release). I was all ready to splat kung fu gnolls, too  Hopefully, either mutation potions are made more common or another mut item is added back in (or Jiyva becomes a Temple god).
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Dec 18, 2017 12:37
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hito posted:I loving hate explaining poo poo like "Oh, pizza is just another food with a funny name, ah yes,
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Dec 18, 2017 13:18
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Pandemonium Pizza was my favorite thing in the game. Yes I know that it's just a tiny tangent that was culled to make the experience of learning and playing the game better, but it still hurt to find out. A lot of crawl is things like that, fiddly little bits of sprue still stuck on that are being filed away to make a more polished product, but it's losing charm as a result.
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Dec 18, 2017 14:21
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ah gently caress we filed away some of the detail. oh well no biggie, we're getting closer to our end goal of a perfectly smooth, featureless orb
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Dec 18, 2017 14:40
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I usually think criticism of the devs in here is hyperbolic and a little shrill, but I simple can't see how removing purple chunks doesn't detract from the game. I never even really ate them that much, but I don't see why you wouldn't let people chow down if they want to! The commit comment makes no sense on its own, so there must be a more complex, well reasoned argument. But whatever the reasoning is, it results in something bad for the game. I particularly love that the dev who committed the change almost openly wrote that it's making the game less fun for the purpose of design purity, which is somehow "necessary".
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Dec 18, 2017 15:03
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Heithinn Grasida posted:so there must be a more complex, well reasoned argument. Removing redundancy is a core design tenant for the dev team, that's the entirity of the rationale behind the change.
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Dec 18, 2017 15:22
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The current dev team, who apparently and obviously can't get a drat thing right
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Dec 18, 2017 15:31
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I'm not sure what the issue is, this is the long awaited update to the mutation system that was stated to come after the removal of rMut.
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Dec 18, 2017 15:45
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So is it just SA that is bitching about this or are the other groups like the tavern and reddit acknowledging that getting rid of maybe the last bit of optional fun is a bad ideaSojenus posted:I'm not sure what the issue is, this is the long awaited update to the mutation system that was stated to come after the removal of rMut. Good point, I never considered this angle.
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Dec 18, 2017 16:22
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Inexplicable Humblebrag posted:ah gently caress we filed away some of the detail. oh well no biggie, we're getting closer to our end goal of a perfectly smooth, featureless orb If the entire game is the orb run the orb run is no longer fun
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Dec 18, 2017 16:46
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Arivia posted:If the entire game is the orb run the orb run is no longer fun Then at that point, the solution is clearly to remove the orb run. 
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Dec 18, 2017 16:48
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FulsomFrank posted:So is it just SA that is bitching about this or are the other groups like the tavern and reddit acknowledging that getting rid of maybe the last bit of optional fun is a bad idea This probably wasn't included under the concept of mutations reform. This is a part of a partial food reform because they haven't gotten to deciding whether they want a goldified food clock (no chunks, all food automatically eaten when collected, food is a strategic timer with no tactical costs) or complete removal. Thus, they just merged some food types down to make it easier to goldify/remove later, including corner cases like mut chunks. The plan is to decide for 0.22. Feedback from other sites- Reddit: Some disappointment about mut chunks from the fun crowd. Others saying it wasn't optimal to eat them but not seeing why they needed to be removed. Some are just still upset about having to get mutations at all due to the mut/cmut change from awhile ago. Tavern: No thread relating to purple chunks. There was a thread about praising the rest of the food reform, but I'll infer from the other Tavern threads about food and Hellcrawl that most would prefer food to be deleted entirely. Crawl-dev IRC (click Dec 18 2017, Show Logs): Laughing at SA, admitting it does take away player agency which is bad, brainstorming potential replacements. Doesn't really go past brainstorming. 4chan Roguelike General (I'm not linking this, it's a trash fire that I only learned about looking for Gnoll player feedback): Dislike mut chunks removal, but they've been disliking everything removed from DCSS since 0.10. They also blame goons for DCSS going bad (while praising Gnolls and WJC??? I don't get it). I didn't look at the r/roguelike Discord server or ##crawl IRC logs yet, but I assume that most of the people who frequent those are close to Tavern's opinions.
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Dec 18, 2017 17:11
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Floodkiller posted:Crawl-dev IRC (click Dec 18 2017, Show Logs): Laughing at SA, admitting it does take away player agency which is bad, brainstorming potential replacements. Doesn't really go past brainstorming. drat it didn't make my joke clear enough i'll never curry enough favor to get them to make crabcrawl
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Dec 18, 2017 17:32
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Lmao at those dev irc logs. Even hellmonk is an idiot who has no idea what makes his game fun. Incredible.
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Dec 18, 2017 17:44
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Floodkiller posted:This probably wasn't included under the concept of mutations reform. This is a part of a partial food reform because they haven't gotten to deciding whether they want a goldified food clock (no chunks, all food automatically eaten when collected, food is a strategic timer with no tactical costs) or complete removal. Thus, they just merged some food types down to make it easier to goldify/remove later, including corner cases like mut chunks. The plan is to decide for 0.22. I was joking about the Mut overhaul but I could see room for confusion/tone. I'm not sure what the dev irc's joke is? How does the ENTIRELY optional decision to eat mutagenic chunks to hop on the roullette of feast and famine and fun remove player agency? This is much different from the turn around the corner and get stared at by a shining eye/Nexocqyetec and eat a lovely mutation because lol why not. More than willing to admit I am just no understanding their point though.
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Dec 18, 2017 17:45
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gowb posted:Lmao at those dev irc logs. Even hellmonk is an idiot who has no idea what makes his game fun. Incredible. Hellmonk is very much of the Tavern school of Crawl development, and I don't understand why anyone would think otherwise. Most of Hellcrawl's major changes are about removing things that Tavern keeps asking DCSS devs to remove, like food and stair dancing and item curses. It just happens to be that most of the stuff Hellmonk has removed (so far) is stuff that most players hate instead of like. The only real (albeit big) difference between Hellcrawl and DCSS is that Hellcrawl is a one man dev team (although contributions are accepted). Being able to push things without passing it by committee first makes non-bugfix updates come faster, and reforms/removals often come feature complete instead of a partial implementation of agreed upon problematic sections with plans to hash out the rest later. This does have its own issues: lack of solid code review before committing leads to many bugs, save compatibility breaks often due to many large changes, and sometimes the fix action is removal to avoid wasting time while working on something else (solution to Nemelex was to remove Nemelex until Hellmonk came up with a good full reform, instead of piecing something together while keeping Nemelex enabled).
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Dec 18, 2017 18:27
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Honestly I don't feel much desire to continue playing a game where it seems like the devs actively spite and mock the community.
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Dec 18, 2017 18:53
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I figure I'll do this tournament as a last hurrah since I was definitely looking forward to kung fu. Leave on a high-ish note and all that. But yeah, the way things are going I just can't see myself keeping at it past that.
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Dec 18, 2017 18:56
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Internet Kraken posted:Honestly I don't feel much desire to continue playing a game where it seems like the devs actively spite and mock the community. They've been doing that since mountain dwarves, though.
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Dec 18, 2017 19:18
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Internet Kraken posted:Honestly I don't feel much desire to continue playing a game where it seems like the devs actively spite and mock the community. I can't imagine there's a single project in any field that doesn't have the workers continually mocking their community/clients/whatever.
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Dec 18, 2017 19:21
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Floodkiller posted:They've been doing that since mountain dwarves, though. Yeah and I wasn't a huge fan of it then either. If you're going to remove something that a good chunk of the playerbase is fond of it should be done in a delicate manner. If the devs are just gonna make fun of everyone that doesn't instantly understand their grand vision, it removes a lot of the desire to actually do so.
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Dec 18, 2017 19:24
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Floodkiller posted:They've been doing that since mountain dwarves, though. That was the first controversial removal and in hindsight the start of this wrongheaded strategy of removing anything remotely fun or goofy, but at the time it made a lot of sense. The only thing they had over minataurs was their head slot iirc, and they're only slightly different from orcs. So having three sword and board heavy armor characters really did seem redundant, plus dwarves are (subjectively) mad boring. Minos are much cooler and orcs are straight up unique with their hilarious god. It was thus easy to make fun of the people crying about the change. Same with sludge elves, regular elves. High elves had a much more individual niche because agile sword and light armor hybrids are rare, I can't think of any aside from Vampires - who have a unique and frankly annoying mechanic to wrestle that a lot of people aren't into - and Tenku, for whom melee is a trap because they are insanely fragile.
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Dec 18, 2017 19:27
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Basically if I was a dev I wouldn't look at a bunch of players hating a change and think "hilarious!". Even if its a change I think the game needs, you should be making an effort to properly explain stuff so those players can still hopefully come around and appreciate the change, or at least tolerate it. This change doesn't have any real explanation and is near-universally hated. That's not something I would find amusing if I wanted people to actually enjoy my game. Internet Kraken fucked around with this message at 20:00 on Dec 18, 2017 |
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Dec 18, 2017 19:42
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Internet Kraken posted:Basically if I was a dev I wouldn't look at a bunch of players hating a change and think "hilarious!". Even if its a change I think the game needs, you should be making an effort to properly explain stuff so those players can still enjoy the change. Fun is sub-optimal. Only stupid babies have fun, and we sure don't want any stupid babies in our game. This is for professionals.
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Dec 18, 2017 19:58
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I like to have fun.
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Dec 18, 2017 20:04
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again, there's plenty of roguelikes that have more meaningful options for the player and also manage to have massively more flavor at the same time, so i can't say that there's any reason for me to care about crawl anymore. especially if the devs are going to be weird assholes about their poorly explained changes.
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Dec 18, 2017 20:28
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Johnny Joestar posted:again, there's plenty of roguelikes that have more meaningful options for the player and also manage to have massively more flavor at the same time, so i can't say that there's any reason for me to care about crawl anymore. especially if the devs are going to be weird assholes about their poorly explained changes. What roguelikes are you playing instead of Crawl these days? I haven't really found anything that fills its niche for me.
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Dec 18, 2017 20:31
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caves of qud, cogmind and infra arcana are the three main ones i cycle through, all of them presenting a solid backdrop for the systems involved and none of them are obsessed with smoothing everything down to a featureless orb.
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Dec 18, 2017 20:37
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I read those devlogs and it sounds like they're figuring out a new way to get mutations. I'd be fine with the change if that turns out to be at least somewhat reliable, I just hope they don't drag their feet implementing it now that there's no way to roll the dice. I get why the change was made and I like the idea of consolidating all the different food types, but I wish they had had a replacement ready before they removed the only consistent source of mutations. I would probably laugh at goons too with how hyperbolic and heated this thread always gets whenever something gets removed. "The devs literally do not want the game to be fun" is an idea that gets tossed around a whole lot in this thread and it's pretty silly.
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Dec 18, 2017 22:17
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Johnny Joestar posted:caves of qud, cogmind and infra arcana are the three main ones i cycle through, all of them presenting a solid backdrop for the systems involved and none of them are obsessed with smoothing everything down to a featureless orb. Are those pretty regularly updated? I used to like...I think it was called Angbad? A lot, but it was ancient and not updated ever. Maybe I'll try dwarf fortress adventure mode again.
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Dec 18, 2017 22:18
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gowb posted:Are those pretty regularly updated? I used to like...I think it was called Angbad? A lot, but it was ancient and not updated ever. Maybe I'll try dwarf fortress adventure mode again. Caves of Qud is updated (almost) every Friday.
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Dec 18, 2017 22:23
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I've been playing DCSS since 2006 and have splatted thousands of dudes. Was able to convince myself that the changes were for the best, that the QOL improvements made up for the loss of character and complexity and weirdness. I think that removing the purples is the last straw. Having some fun loving around w/ hellcrawl, but I think I'm finally done with the one computer game that I play. Great job, devs, you've driven away yet another irrationally loyal player. Feelin' vaguely sad.
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Dec 18, 2017 22:27
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