Star Wars: 4000 posts later we are no closer to consensus

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Cnut the Great: Mar 30, 2014

Yaws posted:

Why do the OT characters need to be in the ST at all? Why are they all failures and gently caress ups? Han and Leia are awful parents and Han gets killed by his own son. Chewie gets to watch that! Luke does such a poor job of training said son he becomes a god drat Sith and joins another Empire. Speaking of which, they fought so hard to rid the galaxy of the Empire only for it to come back again.

The end of RotJ was so happy. Those drat fools have no idea what they're in for

Looks like we actually semi-agree on something for once.

Except I don't have a problem with characters failing and dying. I do have a problem failing in the exact same way as their parents and negating the point of the originals. Through some creative writing Rian Johnson managed to turn it into something at least approaching a coherent theme, but does that mean it's a satisfying one? I don't really think so. I don't think Luke Skywalker, the man who believed in and redeemed the most evil man in the universe, would for one millisecond even consider murdering his young nephew in his sleep simply because he was struggling with the same temptations Luke once did, and his father before him. Surely there are challenges Luke could have struggled with in the ST, challenges befitting a mature Jedi Master with the benefit of years of wisdom arising from both his own experiences and that of his forebears, challenges that don't involve him facing the same temptations he already overcame except for all intents and purposes failing this time. A challenge that's genuinely hard. This isn't the most interesting story. It's just the most interesting one they could come up with.

I get that it's hard. I-VI really did basically tell a complete story. I don't really have a good idea what specifically they could have done. But they're the ones taking it on themselves to make these movies. They should have something.

# ? Dec 19, 2017 00:24

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# ? Jun 4, 2024 07:28

Lord Hydronium: Sep 25, 2007; Non, je ne regrette rien

Re Luke:

One of the recurring ideas in the sequels is the power of mythology, for good and ill. TFA contrasted Han as a mythological figure of the underworld and Rebellion with Han the flawed parent, and had Kylo Ren modeling himself after a myth of Vader that has very little to do with the real one. TLJ has some of the more positive aspects of mythologizing with the idea of resistance itself being a myth we spread through symbols and ideas. But it also has one of the more negative forms: Luke mythologizing himself.

At the end of Return of the Jedi, Luke performs an extraordinary act of compassion by rejecting the teachings of his mentors to look past Vader's mask and spare his father, and in doing so he saves the galaxy. And to the fandom and Luke himself, that's who he becomes. The Man Who Forgives. The perfect exemplar of the Jedi. The thing is, that extraordinary act is just that - extraordinary. It's remarkable because Luke goes above and beyond, not because it's easy for him. In fact, he only makes that decision after losing his own battle to temptation and trying to murder his father mere seconds before.

So now some years pass, and Ben comes into the picture, and Luke realizes what he could become. And while everything might have worked out well in the end regarding Vader, a lot of people had to suffer and die in the meantime. So Luke has a moment of weakness. For a second, he considers murdering his nephew to stop the darkness before it begins. It's not a good thing he does, but it's very human. (It's also extremely important that he stops himself, not Ben; while he has the moment of temptation, he was never going to go through with it, because that really would be out of character for Luke.) So Ben sees him, thinks Luke is going to kill him, yada yada years of darkness.

And Luke, the exemplar of the Jedi who can forgive anything, finds that the one thing he can't forgive is himself being merely human. He's bought into his myth so hard that his failure is not just a moment of weakness, not just a failure of himself, but a failure of the whole concept of being a Jedi. The old Jedi hosed up and made Vader, the new Jedi (him) hosed up and made Ren. Rather than accept he made a mistake and move on, he figures the whole Jedi experiment is a failure, cuts himself off from the Force, and runs off to find a temple he just wants to hide in and look after some books he doesn't actually care about. When TLJ rolls around, Rey shows him that he still has value as a teacher and Jedi, R2 shows him that people still need the myth of Luke Skywalker, and Yoda tells him to learn from his mistakes, there's only so much responsibility you can take for the actions of your students, and to build a bridge with the Force and get the gently caress over it.

The Luke who fights at the end is not the real Luke, in many senses. It's an illusion, but even the representation is of a younger Luke, wielding his original lightsaber. It's pure myth, created to serve as a symbol to inspire the Resistance and distract Ren. Luke can be the hopeful Jedi symbol and the flawed man, and he can have a student symbolic of his failure and one who represents everything good he has to pass on.

Lord Hydronium fucked around with this message at 00:36 on Dec 19, 2017

# ? Dec 19, 2017 00:29

Bongo Bill: Jan 17, 2012

Cnut the Great posted:

Looks like we actually semi-agree on something for once.

Except I don't have a problem with characters failing and dying. I do have a problem failing in the exact same way as their parents and negating the point of the originals. Through some creative writing Rian Johnson managed to turn it into something at least approaching a coherent theme, but does that mean it's a satisfying one? I don't really think so. I don't think Luke Skywalker, the man who believed in and redeemed the most evil man in the universe, would for one millisecond even consider murdering his young nephew in his sleep simply because he was struggling with the same temptations Luke once did, and his father before him. Surely there are challenges Luke could have struggled with in the ST, challenges befitting a mature Jedi Master with the benefit of years of wisdom arising from both his own experiences and that of his forebears, challenges that don't involve him facing the same temptations he already overcame except for all intents and purposes failing this time. A challenge that's genuinely hard. This isn't the most interesting story. It's just the most interesting one they could come up with.

I get that it's hard. I-VI really did basically tell a complete story. I don't really have a good idea what specifically they could have done. But they're the ones taking it on themselves to make these movies. They should have something.

He saw Ben's future. It wasn't just sensing darkness in him. I found it believable for that reason. He nearly killed Anakin too that one time, remember. It is a struggle, and things went wrong because he was seen struggling.

# ? Dec 19, 2017 00:33

AndyElusive: Jan 7, 2007

Lord Hydronium posted:

Re Luke:

One of the recurring ideas in the sequels is the power of mythology, for good and ill. TFA contrasted Han as a mythological figure of the underworld and Rebellion with Han the flawed parent, and had Kylo Ren modeling himself after a myth of Vader that has very little to do with the real one. TLJ has some of the more positive aspects of mythologizing with the idea of resistance itself being a myth we spread through symbols and ideas. But it also has one of the more negative forms: Luke mythologizing himself.

At the end of Return of the Jedi, Luke performs an extraordinary act of compassion by rejecting the teachings of his mentors to look past Vader's mask and spare his father, and in doing so he saves the galaxy. And to the fandom and Luke himself, that's who he becomes. The Man Who Forgives. The perfect exemplar of the Jedi. The thing is, that extraordinary act is just that - extraordinary. It's remarkable because Luke goes above and beyond, not because it's easy for him. In fact, he only makes that decision after losing his own battle to temptation and trying to murder his father mere seconds before.

So now some years pass, and Ben comes into the picture, and Luke realizes what he could become. And while everything might have worked out well in the end regarding Vader, a lot of people had to suffer and die in the meantime. So Luke has a moment of weakness. For a second, he considers murdering his nephew to stop the darkness before it begins. It's not a good thing he does, but it's very human. (It's also extremely important that he stops himself, not Ben; while he has the moment of temptation, he was never going to go through with it, because that really would be out of character for Luke.) So Ben sees him, thinks Luke is going to kill him, yada yada years of darkness.

And Luke, the exemplar of the Jedi who can forgive anything, finds that the one thing he can't forgive is himself being merely human. He's bought into his myth so hard that his failure is not just a moment of weakness, not just a failure of himself, but a failure of the whole concept of being a Jedi. The old Jedi hosed up and made Vader, the new Jedi (him) hosed up and made Ren. Rather than accept he made a mistake and move on, he figures the whole Jedi experiment is a failure, cuts himself off from the Force, and runs off to find a temple he just wants to hide in and look after some books he doesn't actually care about. When TLJ rolls around, Rey shows him that he still has value as a teacher and Jedi, R2 shows him that people still need the myth of Luke Skywalker, and Yoda tells him to learn from his mistakes, there's only so much responsibility you can take for the actions of your students, and to build a bridge with the Force and get the gently caress over it.

The Luke who fights at the end is not the real Luke, in many senses. It's an illusion, but even the representation is of a younger Luke, wielding his original lightsaber. It's pure myth, created to serve as a symbol to inspire the Resistance and distract Ren. Luke can be the hopeful Jedi symbol and the flawed man, and he can have a student symbolic of his failure and one who represents everything good he has to pass on.

If anything, TLJ is awesome because of this story arc alone.

# ? Dec 19, 2017 00:38

RBA Starblade: Apr 28, 2008; Going Home.

Games Idiot Court Jester

Cnut the Great posted:

He's a Jedi who believed this:

"Attachment is forbidden. Possession is forbidden. Compassion -- which I would define as�unconditional love -- is essential to a Jedi's life. So, you might say that we are encouraged to love."

He was a person with the heart of a true Jedi, who was led astray by his own flaws, by the failings of his teachers, and by the seductions of the Emperor. Of course Luke knows his father was a failed Jedi, even before the prequels came out. That's obvious; he's lying on the floor right behind him. His assertion is one that is made in defiance of that fact. He's claiming the part of his father that was a true Jedi. That's the entire power of the line. He's redeeming the name of the ruined man on the floor. He's becoming what his father should have been, and also what his father actually was on some level. It's really not a super tricky line. It's the linchpin of the series.

That was rhetorical; it sounded to me like TLJ re-evaluated what the line means after the prequels and Luke learning what that really is.

quote:

I don't think Luke Skywalker, the man who believed in and redeemed the most evil man in the universe,

No, Palpatine died a huge fucker. :v:

Consider what the True Jedi does. After learning that who wants to be one? Like I said I haven't actually seen the movie yet, but considering what they really are and did I don't see that as a huge leap for Luke to get disillusioned and want something different. Like I said though I haven't seen it yet so I could just be talking nonsense. :v:

Though, "your heroes are poo poo and everything sucks" is maybe getting a little stale now.

quote:

I do have a problem failing in the exact same way as their parents and negating the point of the originals.

Poetry, rhyme, etc. :haw:

# ? Dec 19, 2017 00:42

M_Gargantua: Oct 16, 2006; STOMP'N ON INTO THE POWERLINES; Exciting Lemon

Venuz Patrol posted:

i heard kylo ren was shredded. that he had an eight pack. sorely disappointed to see otherwise

marines always overstate their own fitness for moto reasons. gotta look buff for the ~~ladies~~ jedi

# ? Dec 19, 2017 00:42

Yaws: Oct 23, 2013

Speaking of the Ben Solo/ Luke thing. Are we just to accept Lukes version of what happened? He was only contemplating killing Ben and not actually going to do it? If not, yikes. Luke has more of his dads tendencies than we thought

Cnut the Great posted:

Looks like we actually semi-agree on something for once.

Except I don't have a problem with characters failing and dying. I do have a problem failing in the exact same way as their parents and negating the point of the originals. Through some creative writing Rian Johnson managed to turn it into something at least approaching a coherent theme, but does that mean it's a satisfying one? I don't really think so. I don't think Luke Skywalker, the man who believed in and redeemed the most evil man in the universe, would for one millisecond even consider murdering his young nephew in his sleep simply because he was struggling with the same temptations Luke once did, and his father before him. Surely there are challenges Luke could have struggled with in the ST, challenges befitting a mature Jedi Master with the benefit of years of wisdom arising from both his own experiences and that of his forebears, challenges that don't involve him facing the same temptations he already overcame except for all intents and purposes failing this time. A challenge that's genuinely hard. This isn't the most interesting story. It's just the most interesting one they could come up with.

I get that it's hard. I-VI really did basically tell a complete story. I don't really have a good idea what specifically they could have done. But they're the ones taking it on themselves to make these movies. They should have something.

Yes, the ST feels very tacked on. Obviously Lucas didn't intend for the story to continue. It had a very easy to follow begining middle and end. Everyone had a proper arc, the Empire is dead, Anakin is redeemed. It was fine.

I still enjoy these sequels because I'm a pathetic sad sack that likes the Force and light sabers though.

# ? Dec 19, 2017 00:43

pospysyl: Nov 10, 2012

Cnut the Great posted:

It seems we have to do an awful lot of waiting to figure out what any of these movie are actually trying to tell us. I'm pretty sure TLJ was supposed to make TFA make more sense, but it didn't. Now we apparently have to wait for the next one for this one or the one before it to make any sense.

I get that each movie won't and can't make complete sense until the last movie comes out, but they should still make some sense. Each movie should function as an individual and complete work in addition to being part of a larger work. Otherwise they shouldn't be released as individual entries three years apart.

A New Hope made sense: Don't think too much, trust your feelings. The Empire Strikes Back also made sense: You do still have to think sometimes, you can't blindly trust your feelings in every situation. Return of the Jedi made sense: Feel and think, but don't do either too much at the expense of the other.

Each movie works and says something perfectly valid, but together they give you a more complete picture. But with this new series it's impossible to have any idea what's actually going on, except, presumably, in retrospect (we'll see about that).

Part of the trouble is that there's no unified sense of identity for many of the characters. Poe in The Force Awakens and Poe in The Last Jedi have basically nothing in common other than being a good pilot and Finn might as well have not been in this movie. As a writer or director, you can't really tell a story about characters if you don't know who they are. At the end of TFA, Finn wants to make sure that Rey is safe, and nothing he does in this movie has anything to do with that once he meets Rose. Generously, you can interpret this as transferring his desire to protect Rey as a desire to protect Rose, but that's weak tea. It's more addition than expansion. Instead of desiring to protect one person, Finn learns that he desires to protect...many people. I suppose in Episode IX, he will want to protect all peoples. I guess it's evolution, but only of the most simplistic kind, and it's the kind of expansion that you can apply to almost any character in any story.

Without consistent characterization, all you're left with is a story about ideas or a setting, but they don't have a grasp on those either. For all the insistence on how important and meaningful the Resistance is, we're never shown what they stand for. The yellow text does more work than the actual movie to define the Resistance. They don't espouse any political goal or aim other than survival. They're not even anti-child slavery, not really! I suppose they're meant to stand for the faceless masses, the "allies on the Outer Rim", but that's not really good enough. What do the faceless masses want or need? Inspiration, I guess, but through the transitive property that just means the Resistance stands for...itself, or rather its own possibility. Why does the Resistance need to exist in potential? Instead of making cool things one day possible, why can't they do cool things now? Instead of making a story possible in the future, why can't they tell a story now?

pospysyl fucked around with this message at 00:58 on Dec 19, 2017

# ? Dec 19, 2017 00:55

viral spiral: Sep 19, 2017; by R. Guyovich

I hope Snoke's backstory is integral to the plot in the next one with flashbacks. The next one needs to reveal who Rey's parents are (other than junkies or whatever), too. I mean, come on; they should at least reveal who Snoke really was considering the ominous build-up of his character in these last two installments. I wouldn't mind his true identity being Darth Plagueis.

# ? Dec 19, 2017 01:09

Name Change: Oct 9, 2005

I feel like 9 is going to maybe kick off with a Leia funeral and/or a Return of the King opener sequence where we explain how Kylo met Snoke.

# ? Dec 19, 2017 01:11

Lord Hydronium: Sep 25, 2007; Non, je ne regrette rien

Cnut the Great posted:

It seems we have to do an awful lot of waiting to figure out what any of these movie are actually trying to tell us. I'm pretty sure TLJ was supposed to make TFA make more sense, but it didn't. Now we apparently have to wait for the next one for this one or the one before it to make any sense.

This is a pretty unfair interpretation of what they were saying. They were responding to your criticism that your own prediction of Episode IX made TLJ bad:

quote:

It seems to be what a lot of people are taking away from the movie and what they want, though. If anything, I think the saga will end with Rey proclaiming herself to have transcended the dogmatic strictures of the old way and to be walking a new, more enlightened path which accepts the realities of both the dark and the light and maintains a healthy balance between them...even though that's exactly what the Jedi are and what Luke accomplished in bringing them back in ROTJ.

TLJ has none of those things, it's entirely your idea of what will happen in Episode IX. If you can't use hypothetical other movies to justify decisions in this one (which I agree), you also can't make up hypothetical other movies to claim they negatively impact this one.

Also, TLJ doesn't even hint at the "balance = grey = light and dark equally" thing, which is good, because it was one of my biggest worries going in. Balance, according to Luke, is an inherent property of the Force as it connects all things. In this movie, Rey rejects the dark and only achieves her greatest feat with the Force by saving others. And her achievement is specifically cast as being a Jedi, not getting rid of them.

Lord Hydronium fucked around with this message at 01:15 on Dec 19, 2017

# ? Dec 19, 2017 01:11

Lord Hydronium: Sep 25, 2007; Non, je ne regrette rien

viral spiral posted:

I hope Snoke's backstory is integral to the plot in the next one with flashbacks. The next one needs to reveal who Rey's parents are (other than junkies or whatever), too. I mean, come on; they should at least reveal who Snoke really was considering the ominous build-up of his character in these last two installments. I wouldn't mind his true identity being Darth Plagueis.

Snoke is Snoke, and there's never been any indication otherwise. As ridiculous as Abrams got with the mystery box stuff in TFA, I gotta blame this one entirely on the fans; nothing in it indicates he's anything but what he seems.

# ? Dec 19, 2017 01:14

viral spiral: Sep 19, 2017; by R. Guyovich

dont even fink about it posted:

I feel like 9 is going to maybe kick off with a Leia funeral and/or a Return of the King opener sequence where we explain how Kylo met Snoke.

9 will be the best Star Wars movie ever if it opens up with a flashback of Palpatine trying to assassinate Snoke (if Snoke really is Plagueis, that is).

# ? Dec 19, 2017 01:15

Lord Hydronium: Sep 25, 2007; Non, je ne regrette rien

This movie is going to be the best for sassy reaction gifs. I forsee "Amazing. Every word of what you just said is wrong." and "It's salt." getting a lot of use in this thread.

# ? Dec 19, 2017 01:19

Waffles Inc.: Jan 20, 2005

Lord Hydronium posted:

This movie is going to be the best for sassy reaction gifs. I forsee "Amazing. Every word of what you just said is wrong." and "It's salt." getting a lot of use in this thread.

itssalt.gif will be a goddamn gif legend

# ? Dec 19, 2017 01:21

I AM GRANDO: Aug 20, 2006

Luke never got to his third lesson about why there shouldn�t be any more Jedi, right?

Did they do that just to be frustrating, or to leave a door open to have him be a ghost for a scene in the next one?

I AM GRANDO fucked around with this message at 01:29 on Dec 19, 2017

# ? Dec 19, 2017 01:26

UmOk: Aug 3, 2003

business hammocks posted:

Luke never got to his third lesson about why there shouldn�t be any more Jedi, right?

Did they do that just to be frustrating, or to leave a door open to have him be a ghost for a scene in the next one?

What does your heart tell you?

# ? Dec 19, 2017 01:27

Mulva: Sep 13, 2011; It's about time for my once per decade ban for being a consistently terrible poster.

viral spiral posted:

I hope Snoke's backstory is integral to the plot in the next one with flashbacks. The next one needs to reveal who Rey's parents are (other than junkies or whatever), too. I mean, come on; they should at least reveal who Snoke really was considering the ominous build-up of his character in these last two installments. I wouldn't mind his true identity being Darth Plagueis.

Yes, but the movie hates you for wanting that. And it's right to.

# ? Dec 19, 2017 01:33

Goffer: Apr 4, 2007; "..."

Cnut the Great posted:

That's not something that's really effectively communicated by the movie. And it's just a further erosion of Luke's character as, frankly, someone who never really learned what he was supposed to learn and whose death and removal from the equation is probably the best thing for the galaxy. Which is weird, and renders the original movies pointless and kind of hollow.

Maybe Lucas was right and there really was no more story after I-VI, and so the only way to tell a new story was to completely negate the old one and start over again. I suspect there might have been another way, though. I think you could probably write a story where Luke has to step aside for the new generation which doesn't reflect poorly on the kind of person Luke Skywalker is. Which reflects the fact that he's grown and become better than the Jedi of old. Which is life-affirming instead of strangely depressing.

There are direct lines of dialogue about it: Yoda asks Luke if he has read them and he goes "Ummm" and Yoda replies "Not exactly page turners, are they?" I'm pretty sure that's effectively communicating it.

The way I read it, the galaxy is stuck in a cyclical power struggle between Good and Evil, Order and ... a different kind of Order, and different people respond to the struggle in different ways. To me Luke's struggle is reflected in the Canto Gambing place, the stolen ship and DJ and conversations about why he betrayed the resistance. Luke removes himself from it entirely in a giant depressive slump. DJ profits off it when it suits him. The unnamed arms dealer profits from both sides. They're all 'neutrals' in the conflict.

The book burning happens around the same time as when everything is going to poo poo, while DJ is paid by the First Order - and Finn confront him, DJ says "You win some, they win some, it just goes around and around forever". Luke has the same sort of mentality. The line where the whole ideology of the movie changes is when Finn responds "What if you're wrong?" DJ doesn't have an good answer - "Maybbe I will be".

The cycle is definitely tilted in the First Orders direction at the moment, and the only thing that would sway is back is a lot of hard work and sacrifice from the other side. Luke was in agreement with DJ, it's just a vicious cycle, and removing himself from it will help bring balance. But balance isn't a guarantee, it's something in the distant future that has to be worked at - and after seeing Rey's determination, being reminded by R2, and having a chat with Yoda, he get's his head out of the distant horizon of eventual balance in the future to help do something about it in the present.

viral spiral posted:

I hope Snoke's backstory is integral to the plot in the next one with flashbacks. The next one needs to reveal who Rey's parents are (other than junkies or whatever), too. I mean, come on; they should at least reveal who Snoke really was considering the ominous build-up of his character in these last two installments. I wouldn't mind his true identity being Darth Plagueis.

Kylo was being literal with Rey - her parents are literally nobody. She is a test tube clone baby.

# ? Dec 19, 2017 01:35

viral spiral: Sep 19, 2017; by R. Guyovich

Mulva posted:

Yes, but the movie hates you for wanting that. And it's right to.

You don't want any explanation as to how Snoke created the First Order, or where he came from?

Goffer posted:

Kylo was being literal with Rey - her parents are literally nobody. She is a test tube clone baby.

So shameful if true.

# ? Dec 19, 2017 01:39

Sanguinia: Jan 1, 2012; ~Everybody wants to be a cat~
~Because a cat's the only cat~
~Who knows where its at~

After spending some time looking outside this thread for reactions to this movie, I wish I hadn't. The number of people in various places around the internet who have decided that this movie is Disney destroying Star Wars in general and Luke Skywalker in particular as part of a Orwellian plot to brainwash the white male race and all successful businessfolk into submitting to slavery at the hands of corporations (which are not run by businessmen I guess?), governments and minorities/women is really disturbing and kind of scary.

Also I'm glad that I had already decided to stop caring about Rotten Tomatoes because of the absurdity that is Star Trek Discovery vs The Orville. There is a really dedicated group of horrible people out to control the narrative of all Nerd poo poo through manipulating RT user reviews, and I worry that it might be working to some extent given how many people I've seen pointing to that viewer score as justification for all their "criticisms," no matter how outlandish.

# ? Dec 19, 2017 01:39

Waffles Inc.: Jan 20, 2005

Sanguinia posted:

After spending some time looking outside this thread for reactions to this movie, I wish I hadn't. The number of people in various places around the internet who have decided that this movie is Disney destroying Star Wars in general and Luke Skywalker in particular as part of a Orwellian plot to brainwash the white male race and all successful businessfolk into submitting to slavery at the hands of corporations (which are not run by businessmen I guess?), governments and minorities/women is really disturbing and kind of scary

Honestly movie chat outside of CD is a goddamn trash fire garbage pile

# ? Dec 19, 2017 01:42

AndyElusive: Jan 7, 2007

viral spiral posted:

You don't want any explanation as to how Snoke created the First Order, or where he came from?

What does it matter where they came from or how they were created? It didn't matter how the Empire was created during the entirety of the OT.

If you really care, there's actually new EU that sort of focuses on this, but you'll have to actually look for it. I wound't bother though.

As far as Snoke, goes. He's just another bad guy force user.

# ? Dec 19, 2017 01:46

Goffer: Apr 4, 2007; "..."

viral spiral posted:

So shameful if true.

Search your feeling

I find it strange that Snoke was talking about how because Kylo was Evil, the Good would rise up to meet him (and he thought it would be Skywalker). But if there's a balance and Good and Evil balance themselves out, who is balancing out Snoke?

# ? Dec 19, 2017 01:49

AndyElusive: Jan 7, 2007

Goffer posted:

Search your feeling

I find it strange that Snoke was talking about how because Kylo was Evil, the Good would rise up to meet him (and he thought it would be Skywalker). But if there's a balance and Good and Evil balance themselves out, who is balancing out Snoke?

Skywalker

# ? Dec 19, 2017 01:52

PostNouveau: Sep 3, 2011; VY till I die; Grimey Drawer

viral spiral posted:

You don't want any explanation as to how Snoke created the First Order, or where he came from?

I like to think the First Order came first, and they recruited Snoke to complete their Empire cosplay team.

# ? Dec 19, 2017 01:54

Bongo Bill: Jan 17, 2012

viral spiral posted:

You don't want any explanation as to how Snoke created the First Order, or where he came from?

The casino patrons reveal how the First Order was created, and Snoke isn't necessary for that.

# ? Dec 19, 2017 01:57

Goffer: Apr 4, 2007; "..."

AndyElusive posted:

Skywalker

But he was explicitly talking about how Skywalker would rise against Ben, so that implies he had some other equal (unless he is balanced out by Leia)

# ? Dec 19, 2017 01:57

Maxwell Lord: Dec 12, 2008; I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.; Grimey Drawer

Cnut the Great posted:

The Jedi's failure is implicit in the OT and in in their instructions to Luke to kill Darth Vader. Mace's attempted murder of Sidious in Episode III is the culmination and embodiment of all the Jedi's philosophical failures in those movies, and Luke almost making the same choice in ROTJ but then going another way represents him encountering those same temptations but then overcoming them. He then proclaims himself a Jedi, because in rejecting the temptations of power and evil, and by showing mercy and compassion to his enemy, that is what he has truly become.

That doesn't mean he can't fail. He is not perfect. he is still a human.

# ? Dec 19, 2017 01:58

Mulva: Sep 13, 2011; It's about time for my once per decade ban for being a consistently terrible poster.

viral spiral posted:

You don't want any explanation as to how Snoke created the First Order, or where he came from?

Nope, it doesn't matter. At all. The plot is the exact same no matter how you justify it, so why bother?

# ? Dec 19, 2017 02:00

Jedi Knight Luigi: Jul 13, 2009

Samara posted:

After sleeping on it I have to say, TLJ was fairly disappointing. The script and out of place comedy really distract from what should�ve been an easy sequel to TFA.

From the Poe / Hux lame joke during a serious battle to Luke throwIng the saber over his shoulder the comedy portions are almost insulting.

The dark side cave was awful. The casino planet should be fully cut. The Space Leia scene literally pulled me out of the movie and made me say �wtf?�

I�m so bummed because TFA was actually really good. They gave this guy a trilogy?

100% agreed on all counts. Star Wars is a fairy tale, and TLJ is a Marvel-fied �blockbuster�

# ? Dec 19, 2017 02:00

Sanguinia: Jan 1, 2012; ~Everybody wants to be a cat~
~Because a cat's the only cat~
~Who knows where its at~

Goffer posted:

Search your feeling

I find it strange that Snoke was talking about how because Kylo was Evil, the Good would rise up to meet him (and he thought it would be Skywalker). But if there's a balance and Good and Evil balance themselves out, who is balancing out Snoke?

Leia? She had the potential to stop Vader and Palpy according to Yoda. More likely is just that Snoke's philosophy of The Force is dumb and wrong. It is hardly unheard of for Darksiders to be of the opinion that Light and Dark are in a constant struggle of matched strength, as opposed to the typical lightside philosophy that Balance is the natural fundamental state of things and rising darkness represents IMBALANCE

# ? Dec 19, 2017 02:01

Sanguinia: Jan 1, 2012; ~Everybody wants to be a cat~
~Because a cat's the only cat~
~Who knows where its at~

viral spiral posted:

You don't want any explanation as to how Snoke created the First Order, or where he came from?

I was fine with no explanation of how Palpatine created the Empire and where he came from. In fact, when I got that information it ended up sucking. I mean, if we're really being objective here, we only got a fraction more context for The Emperor in OT than we did for The Supreme Leader in ST. He's there to be an appendix to the real villain of the story, and facilitate a climatic moment in the villain and heroes respective journeys. Context beyond that may be great fodder for EU material, but for the films its unnecessary. The ONLY thing I would have wanted more from Snoke was some kind of context for how he played a part in Kylo's turn to darkness, and thus triggered what happened with Luke. As far as I'm concerned its the only missing piece of the puzzle.

EDIT: Forgive the double post, I've been hype to talk Star Wars all day because my friends haven't seen it yet.

# ? Dec 19, 2017 02:09

Maxwell Lord: Dec 12, 2008; I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.; Grimey Drawer

There is a difference, in that the Emperor wasn't introduced in a sequel to a movie that ended with the galaxy run by a benevolent collective. RotJ ends with the Empire apparently fully defeated, but then now these guys! "Where did they come from" is sort of an interesting question.

I mean making him the Emperor's clone or whatever would have been dumb, but I feel like there IS a bit more story to be told in how Kylo fell under Snoke's sway even before Luke made that big mistake with the lightsaber.

# ? Dec 19, 2017 02:15

MasterSlowPoke: Oct 9, 2005; Our courage will pull us through

The Empire isn't fully defeated at the end of ROTJ. The head is severed, but the Empire was a galaxy spanning organization ruling over billions of people. I'm sure there were many splinters of it, and what eventually became the First Order was a particularly successful one.

# ? Dec 19, 2017 02:27

AccountSupervisor: Aug 3, 2004; I am greatful for my loop pedal

viral spiral posted:

You don't want any explanation as to how Snoke created the First Order, or where he came from?

So shameful if true.

That is what the books are for, this has ALWAYS been the case for SW mythology. Its purposefully vague in the movies and always has been since the OG EU started.

Read the Aftermath trilogy, it literally explains all of this. It tells you in great detail where the FO came from and pretty much heavily implies what Snoke is.

Here, let me just save you some time.

AFTERMATH TRILOGY posted:

25 years before the events of ROTJ, The Emperor trains a young child from birth to carry out a "Contingency" plan to destroy the Empire and Rebellion upon his death because Palpatine believes the Empire does not deserve to exist should it fail to protect its emperor.

This man grows up to become some Imperial General Rax and even helps train a young Hux, whose father is part of the final Imperial leadership and a character in the books. Rax and the Emperors contigency plan ends up being to stage a massive battle above Jakku(The Battle of Jakku) and detonate the planet, destroying both sides.

Before the events of Jakku, Rax tells Huxs dad to take Hux and some child soldiers to the Unknwon Regions and start a new Empire. The Emperor had built obervatorys all throughout the galaxy in his life, looking for a Dark Side presence(heavily implied to be Snoke) in the Unknown Regions. In the core of the planet, before he sets it to blow up Rax shows one of Palaptines advisors an ancient room with ancient computers that show a map of the Unkown Regions, where this Dark Side presence *cough Snoke cough* is located. He kills the adviser, setting off the planet to detonate.

Hes stopped by an Imperial Admiral and some other characters. This Imperial Admiral then takes this map and the remnants of the Empire and Hux and his son(Hux from the movies) to navigate the unknown regions and implement the...FIRST ORDER to rebuld the Empire.

/end nerdy bullshit infodumb that doesnt really matter to the emotional arc of the film, which is way more important than this poo poo. And I read this crap. I love it. But NONE OF IT REALLY MATTERS.

PostNouveau posted:

I like to think the First Order came first, and they recruited Snoke to complete their Empire cosplay team.

This is pretty much what happens.

AccountSupervisor fucked around with this message at 02:32 on Dec 19, 2017

# ? Dec 19, 2017 02:30

viral spiral: Sep 19, 2017; by R. Guyovich

Sanguinia posted:

After spending some time looking outside this thread for reactions to this movie, I wish I hadn't. The number of people in various places around the internet who have decided that this movie is Disney destroying Star Wars in general and Luke Skywalker in particular as part of a Orwellian plot to brainwash the white male race and all successful businessfolk into submitting to slavery at the hands of corporations (which are not run by businessmen I guess?), governments and minorities/women is really disturbing and kind of scary.

Are you reading Stormfront reviews for this? I haven't seen anything like this elsewhere. It's mostly just bitching about "plot holes."

Bongo Bill posted:

The casino patrons reveal how the First Order was created, and Snoke isn't necessary for that.

I don't know; having such a creepy, and frankly badass villain like Snoke having no backstory or secret identity revealed just seemed like a missed opportunity. I did like the direction they took of having him unexpectedly die half way through the film, though.

# ? Dec 19, 2017 02:40

Maxwell Lord: Dec 12, 2008; I am drowning.
There is no sign of land.
You are coming down with me, hand in unlovable hand.

And I hope you die.

I hope we both die.; Grimey Drawer

Snoke not being human also made it seem like he had some story- if it were just an Imperial remnant, even if you don't pay attention to the EU, when did they ever have an alien in charge of anything?

# ? Dec 19, 2017 02:41

Dessel: Feb 21, 2011

I tried googling for this information but my google-fu is failing me.

Has Disney buying Lucasfilm and the new films had any shakeups in the Star Wars film crew? How similar does the roster that worked on the three new films look in comparison to EP1-3? Has there been any differences with the two mainline films and Rogue One? Hell, what's the difference between the prequel trilogy episodes? And are there any people still around who were doing it for EP4-6?

# ? Dec 19, 2017 02:41

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# ? Jun 4, 2024 07:28

Sanguinia: Jan 1, 2012; ~Everybody wants to be a cat~
~Because a cat's the only cat~
~Who knows where its at~

viral spiral posted:

Are you reading Stormfront reviews for this? I haven't seen anything like this elsewhere. It's mostly just bitching about "plot holes."

Not kidding when I say literally three of the first five reviews I saw on Rotten Tomatos were some variant of that. It only got worse from there.

# ? Dec 19, 2017 02:49

The Something Awful Forums > The Finer Arts > Cinema Discusso > Star Wars: 4000 posts later we are no closer to consensus

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