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like, the Zin change to make mutation potions act only as cmut at 6* piety? That's a good change. I like that. It gives you more power to remove mutations, rather than only having this one-shot blast to remove them and then being stuck with whatever you get forever because you can't drink mutation potions as a Zinnite without taking penance. It's neat to change that in this way, and I think it would have a net positive effect on my Zin Playing Experience. Now that I've said that, am I allowed to have opinions about other things?
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Dec 19, 2017 10:23
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gowb posted:Are those pretty regularly updated? I used to like...I think it was called Angbad? A lot, but it was ancient and not updated ever. Maybe I'll try dwarf fortress adventure mode again. Angband's been getting updated again lately apparently? But there's also like, 100s of different Angbands out there to try out. In single dungeon variants Sil is a big standout. And there's NPPAngband which I think is supposed to be vanilla+ with current updates.
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Dec 19, 2017 10:47
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Heithinn Grasida posted:Maybe Gammafunk would still post here if people weren't so lovely all the time. If you actually read the dev irc log, he actually said that it's a good point that removing random mutation as a player choice isn't good and is looking into a replacement for purple chunks. Perhaps certain monsters could have a chance to drop a consumable item, some sort of rainbow choko, that mutates you randomly when used. Maybe they should eventually get reclaimed by Xom after a couple hundred turns. It would probably fit best if it was given to more unusual monsters like shape shifters or ugly things. That might be a good replacement for purple chunks.
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Dec 19, 2017 11:03
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lmao that crawl threads have degenerated into devcultists and doomsayers
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Dec 19, 2017 13:22
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I'm both of those things
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Dec 19, 2017 13:35
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Inexplicable Humblebrag posted:lmao that crawl threads have degenerated into devcultists and doomsayers I can’t find either of those in learndb; is this some new trunk vault?
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Dec 19, 2017 13:42
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c'mon dude they don't add things to crawl
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Dec 19, 2017 14:22
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They add removals. Wake up dude
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Dec 19, 2017 15:05
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cheetah7071 posted:People started complaining that the devs suck around the time the devs started sucking, it's not rocket science someone awful. posted:It's hard to post positive thoughts about changes when you don't enjoy any of the changes being made Heithinn, you're a good poster and a good contributor to this thread and I am being totally serious when I ask this: outside of maybe one or two posters that aren't even regulars, do you honestly believe people were trolling and shitposting guys like the very cool skull.gif and PF constantly and so hard that they bailed on the game and the thread entirely? About every controversial cut has been met with tons of suggestions on how to fix things rather than outright deleting them and you're saying that all these suggestions from people that obviously love the game and (at least for me) go out of their way to thank the devs for putting free time into this little project, are being ignored because we get pissed... that we're ignored and mocked? It's crazy. Like Kraken said, I used to get excited with each release/trunk version but I haven't touched it in months.
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Dec 19, 2017 15:51
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Hmm, If I wanted to make a fork, are there solid written resources on how to modify the game? I think I'm going to try that out. I'll write up some stuff about what my goals are, change mummies to have human apts and depete humans, then probably get busy and wistfully stare at the folder on my desktop for 6 months.
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Dec 19, 2017 16:04
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Pleasing Fungus usually tried to take the time to explain the reasoning behind changes to us in those situations where very clearly EVERYBODY was unhappy and mystified by an upcoming change. It seemed less like he stopped posting here because of toxicity (which may not have helped, mind you) and more that his explanations had to fall back on "It's part of a larger plan, just trust us!" and then as the versions rolled by and those plans never really got past the removal phase that he stopped showing up. It's possible PF also got tired of seeing lack of follow-through from the rest of the dev team too, and being stuck as a middleman between two sides just wasn't worth it.
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Dec 19, 2017 16:06
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PF went and made a real game and sold it for real money instead of doing free labor for nothing for crawl. also i call him a noob and other toxic things all the time and it's fine
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Dec 19, 2017 16:28
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Kobold Sex Tape posted:PF went and made a real game and sold it for real money instead of doing free labor for nothing for crawl. also i call him a noob and other toxic things all the time and it's fine What game was that, out of curiosity?
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Dec 19, 2017 16:31
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http://store.steampowered.com/app/684270/Silicon_Zeroes/
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Dec 19, 2017 16:44
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Holy poo poo, I have that sitting on my wishlist without even having looked at who made it. Good for him.
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Dec 19, 2017 16:51
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That's awesome. Good for him!
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Dec 19, 2017 17:35
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FulsomFrank posted:Heithinn, you're a good poster and a good contributor to this thread and I am being totally serious when I ask this: outside of maybe one or two posters that aren't even regulars, do you honestly believe people were trolling and shitposting guys like the very cool skull.gif and PF constantly and so hard that they bailed on the game and the thread entirely? I don't want to talk about why people aren't posting in this thread anymore because I have no idea. I think it's because the thread has a caustic atmosphere, but I could be completely wrong and they left for other reasons. My feeling is that there are one or two regulars who frequently shut down discussion with negativity and overly confrontational, often bad opinions. Otherwise, there are people who jump in every month or two to say: "gently caress the devs!" for not much reason then leave. Since the number of good posts is growing smaller, the bad posters are comparatively louder. That shifts the total mood of the thread from one of discussion with some noise to one where a bunch of people are all saying things suck and the game is now no good at all and any attempt to make it better is certain to fail. Then the people who want to post positive things or actually discuss the game at all, in fact, don't feel like they have a place in the thread. I'm not trying to say we should never criticize the devs. Removing purple chunks sucked. I understand the thought process behind it and I've gone through different opinions on the subject, but I now think removing high elves sucked. I think removing the crown of eternal torment sucked, even though I never put it on once. I think removing singularity sucked a whole loving lot. I don't like the removal of recharging scrolls and I don't really like the removal of the big three wands. I think removing haste was a good idea, but it had big implications for casters and especially hybrids and I think the game will suck more for that change until there are some good new charms. I think removing boulder beetles sucked too. There are lots of changes that I don't like and I'm happy when I see people being vocal about them. And I do think the devs have serious problems communicating with people from outside of their special place. The caustic attitude is not just coming from us. But I think it's clear that if good work were done into formulating ideas and maybe writing them, the devs would be willing to engage with us. They're still reading this thread and discussing ideas posted in it. They did so yesterday! I think certain people in here are unwilling to engage with them. And if that's the case, that's fine. They are kind of assholes, after all. But don't shout down the people who still do think the game can get better. Darox posted:Perhaps certain monsters could have a chance to drop a consumable item, some sort of rainbow choko, that mutates you randomly when used. Maybe they should eventually get reclaimed by Xom after a couple hundred turns. It would probably fit best if it was given to more unusual monsters like shape shifters or ugly things. Gammafunk was saying he thinks there are too many purple chunks in a game and the number should be limited. So some kind of common thing that drops from unusual monsters like ugly things, that you consume to get random mutations, but shows up in fewer numbers than purple chunks, might be just the replacement. They were also discussing adding multiple benemuts as something to wish for from a scroll of acquirement, which I think is a far less interesting replacement, but better than nothing. Of course, I can't fathom why Gammafunk thinks hundreds of purple chunks are a problem. I'm not sure anyone ever said eating all of them is actually a good strategy, rather just something to do for fun. Even if eating every purple chunk were optimal, I don't see why that would be bad. They can absolutely screw you over, and the results you get from doing it are always different and help to distinguish runs for the people who enjoy it.
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Dec 19, 2017 18:46
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This forum is a great barometer for changes and adjustments (most of the time). If this here forum says, 'I don't like this change', it's a good representation of a lot of different kinds of players, from some of the best players to some folks who don't have a win yet. To dismiss the subjective feedback of this forum is probably a major mistake. That said, SA has some terrible ideas of how to fix specific issues.
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Dec 19, 2017 19:30
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Pleasant fungus is cool. I'll look at his game. Dcss is cool but it's in a weird season at the mome. Things go in cycles, there's hell crawl which I finally played. I like a lot about it and don't like other aspects. We will all get through this together.
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Dec 19, 2017 20:42
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If someone (or a collaboration effort) can put forward a design document/list of features that the thread can agree upon and wants reimplemented/changed/removed, I'll take some free time over the holidays and try to hammer together a Gooncrawl fork based off the current Trunk version to keep the QoL additions. Some caveats for features:
I'd appreciate something before next week, or I'll probably just spend the holidays messing around with Extended reform plans instead.
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Dec 19, 2017 21:11
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Floodkiller posted:If someone (or a collaboration effort) can put forward a design document/list of features that the thread can agree upon and wants reimplemented/changed/removed, I'll take some free time over the holidays and try to hammer together a Gooncrawl fork based off the current Trunk version to keep the QoL additions. Some caveats for features: pakellas, rods, scrolls of recharging, fun wands [removed 0.18-0.20] amulet of +rMut [0.18] mountain dwarfs [removed 0.10] high elf's [removed 0.20] sludge elf's [removed 0.13] good nemelex [removed 0.15 - might be a lot of work / controversial] pandemonium pizza fulsome distillatiion / evaporate [removed 0.12 - might be a lot of work to put back in, as it's deeply tied to the old corpse system.] poisonous cloud [0.20], phase shift [0.18], singularity [0.17] crown of eternal torment Eela6 fucked around with this message at 21:25 on Dec 19, 2017 |
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Dec 19, 2017 21:19
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God, if I could be assed to learn coding I would totally try to add silly spell ideas I have.
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Dec 19, 2017 21:24
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I don't want to look up what versions to go to until I get confirmation that these changes are agreed-upon but here's what I have off the top of my head: steal perma-buffs from hellcrawl restore high elves restore singularity restore crown of eternal torment put in hellcrawl foodlessness cheetah7071 fucked around with this message at 21:37 on Dec 19, 2017 |
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Dec 19, 2017 21:26
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Things I really care about off the top of my head; -Put Pakellas back in, would probably be a lot of fun with the new wand rework since carrying evocables isn't such a pain -Put back in yellow wands (if you care about balance maybe make Pak's abilities not work with them) -Put rMut amulets back in -Put purple chunks back in -Put restore ability potions back in -Put singularity back in -Put phase shift back in -Put High elves back in -Put Norris back in -Revert Tomb changes in 0.20 Tomb is painful enough, it didn't need to be even harder without being more fun. -Boulder beetles for the memes Internet Kraken fucked around with this message at 21:33 on Dec 19, 2017 |
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Dec 19, 2017 21:31
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I really like trunks wand changes but want the old wands back as well as Pakellas. How the hell you could get all that to work together is beyond me. Revert Ogre apt changes or at least bring Maces to same level as polearms and staves. Bring back Norris CROWN OF ETERNAL TORMENT! World Famous W fucked around with this message at 21:34 on Dec 19, 2017 |
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Dec 19, 2017 21:32
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My vote on Tomb changes is still to have a situation where entering tomb is fairly easy, with only non-mummy enemies, but upon collecting the rune you trigger the mummy's curse and mummies start spawning constantly as long as you're in Tomb Merging Tomb and Crypt could work with this and would allow a greater pre-curse enemy variety This is way way way beyond the stated scope of gooncrawl though e: picking up the rune should also open the loot chambers
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Dec 19, 2017 21:34
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World Famous W posted:Revert Ogre apt changes or at least bring Maces to same level as polearms and staves. forgot about this one. agreed.
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Dec 19, 2017 21:36
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Oh yeah, add Jiyva to list of regular altars to find so you don't get hosed out of trying out that god because it is more than likely locked behind acidic death.
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Dec 19, 2017 21:36
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Internet Kraken posted:-Put back in yellow wands (if you care about balance maybe make Pak's abilities not work with them) Replying to this specifically for specification: I am ignoring all issues related to balance or tedium with any feature reimplementation, unless it is specifically agreed upon by the thread that a feature needs to be balanced in a specific way while being reimplemented. Playtesting and thread feedback can fix that after I've got something out the door. The HAM will not be acknowledged in Gooncrawl unless the thread says it exists (which is also why I am separating myself from design input). This kills the HAM. Also, does somebody want to start compiling these suggestions?
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Dec 19, 2017 21:59
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quote:-Put rMut amulets back in Stuff like this is probably worth scrutiny. What is rMut's role? Previously, it was to mitigate mutation obviously. Fun stuff with this though is that if you rolled 1/10 and got a mutation, you were mad. If you didn't have rMut, you were mad. If you were a micro manager and were willing to shuffle rMut on and off when it's relevant, it's tedious even at it's best. Mutations themselves are somewhat easy to mitigate and once you know what the Bad Ones™ are, you deal with the minor ones and quaff cure mut for the worst offenders. It's yet another system that benefits a great deal from system knowledge and doesn't really bring new decision making paths into the game most of the time. Malmutate, and maybe the mutation system as a whole, probably could use a complete redesign. Adding rMut isn't really adding anything to the game other than a way to mitigate a half-baked system that occasionally can dump all over a character. To be clear, I'm not defending the current mutation system - I'm saying that adding rMut is a bandaid solution to kinda sorta fix a flawed system. Don't bandaid the flawed system. Fix it at it's source. quote:-Put Norris back in Is paralysis interesting? Are you going to be making interesting decisions around paralysis, or is this just another check for players that know what Norris's spell list is, and a giant 'gently caress you' to new players who haven't yet bathed in the glory of 5 turns of stun? I've previously said that I think the direction the game should probably embrace more is one of uncertainty and 'character', and Norris certainly is 'character', but there are much more fertile, much better places to get that than a unique with on-demand paralysis.
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Dec 19, 2017 22:03
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Oh, also before I forget and because people were talking about Pleasing Fungus, there is something I been meaning to ask. Has anyone come across this Hep altar vault It was something I did and PF did alot of extra work to get it working properly for me and I always appreciated it. I just however never once seen it spawn and am afraid that I may had hosed up something. Here is the commit from when it was added awhile ago. EDIT: Used wizard mode to force it to spawn so it is in there, I just think I may have messed up when and how it could appear. Hell if I know, coding ain't mah thing. World Famous W fucked around with this message at 22:11 on Dec 19, 2017 |
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Dec 19, 2017 22:07
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I don't think I've ever seen it
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Dec 19, 2017 22:10
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Floodkiller posted:Replying to this specifically for specification: I am ignoring all issues related to balance or tedium with any feature reimplementation, unless it is specifically agreed upon by the thread that a feature needs to be balanced in a specific way while being reimplemented. Playtesting and thread feedback can fix that after I've got something out the door. The HAM will not be acknowledged in Gooncrawl unless the thread says it exists (which is also why I am separating myself from design input). This kills the HAM. Truly, you are a king among men. 
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Dec 19, 2017 22:11
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About the only things I actually personally would want in a gooncrawl fork would be purple chunks, and the removal of vault rune lock because it does nothing but railroad players into following a certain progression. If players wanna do things in a dumb order, that's fine. I had fun going to hell for my 3rd rune as a mummy that one time. Hellcrawl style permabuffs would also be good. I actively do not want yellow wands/sludge elves/evaporate, but I'm in the minority and in the end if it's a goon fork it should be goony and this thread likes that stuff. e: oh poo poo why didn't I remember, Lets Felids Wear Cloaks And Hats LazyMaybe fucked around with this message at 22:14 on Dec 19, 2017 |
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Dec 19, 2017 22:11
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Canine Blues Arooo posted:Stuff like this is probably worth scrutiny. What is rMut's role? Previously, it was to mitigate mutation obviously. Fun stuff with this though is that if you rolled 1/10 and got a mutation, you were mad. If you didn't have rMut, you were mad. If you were a micro manager and were willing to shuffle rMut on and off when it's relevant, it's tedious even at it's best. Mutations themselves are somewhat easy to mitigate and once you know what the Bad Ones™ are, you deal with the minor ones and quaff cure mut for the worst offenders. It's yet another system that benefits a great deal from system knowledge and doesn't really bring new decision making paths into the game most of the time. Come on, we've gone over this dozens of times in this thread. Yes, rMut is a bandaid for a bad system that should be fixed at its source. However, the devs have no interest or desire in doing anything with malmutate. rMut was removed ages ago and the rework of malmutate is never happened. So while the bandaid of rMut isn't ideal, I'd rather have it than nothing. quote:Is paralysis interesting? Are you going to be making interesting decisions around paralysis, or is this just another check for players that know what Norris's spell list is, and a giant 'gently caress you' to new players who haven't yet bathed in the glory of 5 turns of stun? There are other sources of paralysis that bug me way more than Norris did (gently caress you orc sorcerers). I don't think paralysis is a great mechanic but I don't want Norris back in because he used paralysis. I want him back in because he was a funny unique and removing him took some character out of the game. I think he could be improved by reworking his spells and abilities (the suggestion of giving him his surfboard back and having a nymph water aura was great) but the devs favor just removing stuff over reworking it nowadays. Regardless, I don't think we should be brainstorming hypothetical solutions to all these issues that would require a lot of work on someone's part right now. If Floodkiller is willing to add back in tons of stuff that was removed and revert changes, that's great. Lets have him do that and then we can see if anyone is willing to tackle reforms of specific issues after we have a game setup.
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Dec 19, 2017 22:15
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The easiest bandaid on malmut imo is: Replace shining eyes with wretched stars in slime, they fit the theme well enough Remove the spell from neqoxecs Let OoFs keep malmutate full stop because they're final boss monsters and are supposed to be scary Change cacodemon malmutate to the wretched star spell Put in like one unique with malmutate so the mechanic exists before zot
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Dec 19, 2017 22:19
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Canine Blues Arooo posted:Stuff like this is probably worth scrutiny. What is rMut's role? Previously, it was to mitigate mutation obviously. Fun stuff with this though is that if you rolled 1/10 and got a mutation, you were mad. If you didn't have rMut, you were mad. If you were a micro manager and were willing to shuffle rMut on and off when it's relevant, it's tedious even at it's best. Mutations themselves are somewhat easy to mitigate and once you know what the Bad Ones™ are, you deal with the minor ones and quaff cure mut for the worst offenders. It's yet another system that benefits a great deal from system knowledge and doesn't really bring new decision making paths into the game most of the time. Okay, sorry about my previous statement about separating myself from design input. There is one exception that I will implement regardless of thread input: I will be removing Malmutate, gently caress the consequences. I'll either figure something else out, or just cut it with no replacements. I can still put rMut amulets in and have them protect against god/chunk/potion mutations if the thread wants, but I assume most people don't care about the amulet for those cases. Edit: Maybe Mnoleg can keep it if I'm feeling generous. Floodkiller fucked around with this message at 22:24 on Dec 19, 2017 |
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Dec 19, 2017 22:21
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If we're doing a heavy-handed solution I'd prefer every instance of malmut being replaced with the wretched star ability to straight removal
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Dec 19, 2017 22:22
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IronicDongz posted:e: oh poo poo why didn't I remember, Lets Felids Wear Cloaks And Hats Internet Kraken posted:I think he could be improved by reworking his spells and abilities (the suggestion of giving him (Norris) his surfboard back and having a nymph water aura was great) Floodkiller posted:Okay, sorry about my previous statement about separating myself from design input. There is one exception that I will implement regardless of thread input: I will be removing Malmutate, gently caress the consequences. I'll either figure something else out, or just cut it with no replacements. I can still put rMut amulets in and have them protect against god/chunk/potion mutations if the thread wants, but I assume most people don't care about the amulet for those cases.
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Dec 19, 2017 22:26
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If malmutate is being removed then then rMut isn't needed. The one instance where I used it outside of malmutate was when I got hit by Hell glow. That's still bullshit, but not worth bogging down the equipment system with another property. Hell effects need a total rework but that would be a substantial undertaking.
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Dec 19, 2017 22:31
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