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It might be worth looking at how hellcrawl does malmutate: make the less impactful multi-level mutations more impactful by flattening them into single level (good or bad), neqoxecs and wretched stars got their mutation attacks swapped (so neqoxecs do the temporary ones instead). This still leaves the problem of mutation potions putting a "soft cap" of sorts on how much of a good mutation set you can get, but at least with a partial mutation reform + purple chunks you have a good shot at maintaining a cool mutation set and it can be significant enough to alter how you build your character. Orbs of fire would still be a pain in the rear end in a 3-rune game, but I think that's okay for an end-game enemy. Bringing rMut back until a more comprehensive reform happens would be good too, IMO. It always was a matter of examining the trade-offs based on what enemies are on the screen, but now you have amulet of regen/mp regen in particular which can force you to sacrifice their bonus if you're swapping out of them mid-fight for rMut, and with malmutate being slightly *more* threatening due to flattening some of the multi-level muts it gets more interesting. The amulet pool now is also more competitive overall (Reflection, Regen, MP Regen, Faith, rMut, randarts and fixedarts, rest being pretty meh).
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Dec 19, 2017 22:43
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World Famous W posted:Oh, also before I forget and because people were talking about Pleasing Fungus, there is something I been meaning to ask. Has anyone come across this Hep altar vault I've gotten the vault online before and had it work, it might just have a low chance to spawn for some reason?
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Dec 20, 2017 00:01
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All of this has actually convinced me to pull the trigger on something I've been idly wondering: start with the version of Crawl I first started playing (0.5.1 way back when), and apply only the things I like from each patch going forward to current. I'm expecting a sort of beautiful, disjointed mess.
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Dec 20, 2017 00:25
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Everyone make a Hodge podge version of dcss and post it here. I'd play them all.
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Dec 20, 2017 02:59
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DisDisDis posted:Angband's been getting updated again lately apparently? But there's also like, 100s of different Angbands out there to try out. In single dungeon variants Sil is a big standout. And there's NPPAngband which I think is supposed to be vanilla+ with current updates. If any of you haven't tried it yet, absolutely give Sil a go. It's got Angband-like UI and numbers, but dispenses the Angband general design philosophy for one much more like Crawl's. It's a shorter game than Crawl, but tightly packed, up to and including the final boss and ascension run. I feel like Sil's ascension run in particular is an adrenaline rush every time - like how you felt the first time you made it to Zot, or picked up the Orb. Fun facets in Sil that influenced crawl : Flanking => WJC's Whirlwind, Song of Slaying => Song of Slaying spell.
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Dec 20, 2017 03:15
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cheetah7071 posted:The easiest bandaid on malmut imo is: My favorite idea is making malmutate a dodgeable projectile like orb of destruction.
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Dec 20, 2017 03:26
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Akett posted:God, if I could be assed to learn coding I would totally try to add silly spell ideas I have.
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Dec 20, 2017 03:27
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I'm gonna be forking crawl and I'm gonna make it fun again. Remember gnoll crawl? Imagine that with boulder beetles.
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Dec 20, 2017 03:29
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oh also gooncrawl won't be gooncrawl without more crabs
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Dec 20, 2017 03:30
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Is Extra Hearty still getting updated?
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Dec 20, 2017 03:35
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pretty sure extra hearty hasn't been updated for 4 years
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Dec 20, 2017 03:48
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Let's just pick up where it left off, then?
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Dec 20, 2017 03:48
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PMush Perfect posted:Let's just pick up where it left off, then? Liking the suggestions so far. How are the thread opinions on stair dancing? The lack of that is the only thing I find daunting about hellcrawl. Please don't do that in Goon crawl. I might have more suggestions when I'm not posting from a phone.
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Dec 20, 2017 07:18
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At one point I looked into how easy it'd be to implement the unique King Krab which is a crab that comes with a pack of other crabs, breaths random breath, and drops the unrand +2 Krab Krown {rCloud} but I couldn't even figure out how to make a unique come with a pack even trying to use Louise as an example
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Dec 20, 2017 07:24
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I don't think stair dancing is a great mechanic but I don't think you can remove it without completely changing the structure of the game. There are a lot of situations where you need to make tactical retreats and resting in a floor you haven't cleared is super risky. Also there are certain areas that mess with stairdancing and monster abilities that interact with it to hinder you. So honestly, I think as a mechanic it is fine right now. I think gooncrawl, at least at first, should stay close to the main game and avoid major overhauls. Focus on reverting changes the devs have made that people dislike and see how the game feels after that.
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Dec 20, 2017 07:27
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Internet Kraken posted:I think gooncrawl, at least at first, should stay close to the main game and avoid major overhauls. Focus on reverting changes the devs have made that people dislike and see how the game feels after that. Tollymain posted:i had a thought about hell effects in crawl while
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Dec 20, 2017 07:41
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and it basically goes as such
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lava orcs
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Dec 20, 2017 07:44
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Here is a list of changes people have suggested so far, with the number of times it's been suggested after. I've added a number. I don't disagree with a lot of the other points, but I reserved my vote for things I think are especially important. If I left anything out, I'm sorry and tell me and I'll amend the list. I think it's better to first make clear what people want, then start ruling things out, so I'm not counting anything people don't agree with or specifically don't want yet. pakellas 5 (never actually played Pakellas, though) rods 1 scrolls of recharging, 2 fun wands [removed 0.18-0.20] 4 (I agree, but hope they're not available through acquirement and limited only to special vaults) mountain dwarfs [removed 0.10] 2 (with some changes) high elf's [removed 0.20] 5 sludge elf's [removed 0.13] 2 (with some changes) good nemelex [removed 0.15] 1 pandemonium pizza 2 fulsome distillatiion / evaporate 1 poisonous cloud [0.20] 1 phase shift [0.18] 2 singularity [0.17] 5 (needs changes) crown of eternal torment 5 purple chunks 4 permanent-buffs 3 (more general charms reform) remove food 2 restore ability potions 2 norris 3 revert tomb changes (or remove tomb) 4 boulder beetles 3 revert ogres or change apts 4 (but kept even with M&F and pollards - Tollymain) remove vault rune lock 2 felids can wear hats and cloaks 3 octopodes can squeeze into helmets? 1 jiyva becomes a temple god 1 more crabs +1000 I think a lot of the things that were brought back should be changed in some way. Singularity, while my favorite spell, was legitimately broken and needs a change. But I think it's more important to work on bringing things back first, then changing them. edit: added Tollymain's list, removed my asterisks to not make my preferred issues seem more important. Heithinn Grasida fucked around with this message at 08:38 on Dec 20, 2017 |
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Dec 20, 2017 08:21
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I always kinda thought the purpose of hell effects where to force a more aggressive playstyle, ie running of the gauntlet instead of luring and healing a lot. Fits with the whole upstairs thingie. It's currently inelegant, but moderately effective at keeping all but the most swole dudes from trying to go slow. Other (horrible, awful, do not implement) ideas including a steady tick down of hp/mp, with no restoration allowed, or a turbo-charged Xom code to keep things 'fun'.
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Dec 20, 2017 08:21
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Enemies spawning on top of you while you're resting is a cool thing in hell and it really does force the interesting decision of whether it's better to abandon your progress by going back to the entrance or trying to press your luck and healing when enemies could drop on you at any moment. I can't say that literally any other hell effect has ever resulted in a fun moment for me.
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Dec 20, 2017 08:24
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im not serious about the lava orcs. actual random thoughts: pakellas should come back with the new wand changes high elves had a niche that was left empty with their removal pizza, purple chunks permabuffs just sounds much better than the dcss system boulder beetles are fun felids can wear hats and cloaks would be good, i also kind of want octopodes to be able to squeeze into helmets i never played with singularity or crown of torment but i agree they shouldn't have been removed undeathtrap tomb for the time being, i like the mummy gauntlet idea jiyva altars in the temple pool ogres should have mace apts even with their staves/polearms abilities imo
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Dec 20, 2017 08:30
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Internet Kraken posted:I don't think stair dancing is a great mechanic but I don't think you can remove it without completely changing the structure of the game. There are a lot of situations where you need to make tactical retreats and resting in a floor you haven't cleared is super risky. Also there are certain areas that mess with stairdancing and monster abilities that interact with it to hinder you. So honestly, I think as a mechanic it is fine right now. I completely agree with this. That said, if I have time later on, I'll try to write a type of design statement describing some of the stuff I dislike about recent crawl dev and how my vision of a gooncrawl would differ. I'll write it as a list of points for people to discuss here so that we can form some kind of collective standard for what kind of changes to make to things in the future.
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Dec 20, 2017 08:30
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The problem with Hell effects is that a good chunk of them are just forcing spell miscast effects. They range from being harmless to completely unfair. You might get blasted with a piddling amount of fire damage, or you could suddenly have red glow dumped on you. You can play Hell as fast as you possibly can and possibly come out worse than someone that is incredibly slow because its all just RNG. I'm pretty sure even the devs agree this is badly designed, but because the effects work off spell miscasts its not a simple task to just remove the bullshit ones. None of them are really interested in extended reform so it goes untouched.
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Dec 20, 2017 08:40
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Yeah. If there's anything to learn from the current DCSS devteam, it's that losing sight of the reasons behind your stated design goals can cause... issues. Edit: Legit reversion request. HAMMERS. Make Yiuf Great Again.
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Dec 20, 2017 08:40
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Why are miscasts even still in the game isn't losing your turn and your MP enough punishment
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Dec 20, 2017 08:41
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Oh heck yes I'm down to add ideas I will post when I have some time bc I have SO MANY ideas for Crawl yall
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Dec 20, 2017 08:43
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Miscasts exist mainly because of legacy fluff reasons, but they still held strong relevance for the strong pre-fight buffs. Mostly haste, invis, etc al. but also things like old Haunt, which are viable even with very high fail rates due to their inherent safety.
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Dec 20, 2017 09:02
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Make Okawaru's gifts come attached to a champion you have to defeat in combat: A long channeled ability at 6* piety which teleports you to a small arena. Prevents getting ganked by a powerful enemy when you're not expecting it, prevents using it as an escape mechanism in dangerous situations. You win, you get the item(s). You run away, you get put into penance. You die, 
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Dec 20, 2017 09:12
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redneck nazgul posted:Make Okawaru's gifts come attached to a champion you have to defeat in combat: A long channeled ability at 6* piety which teleports you to a small arena. Prevents getting ganked by a powerful enemy when you're not expecting it, prevents using it as an escape mechanism in dangerous situations. Snark aside, it sounds interesting, but... kinda out-of-nowhere and pointless?
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Dec 20, 2017 09:37
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PMush Perfect posted:Because nothing says fun like fighting an Orc Warlord in +12 rArt Crystal Plate. I've always thought Oka needed something vaguely interesting and I remember ideas to spruce him up getting shot down a long while back. 
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Dec 20, 2017 09:44
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If gooncrawl actually happens which seems unlikely because Goon Projects (tho I hope to be proved wrong), I think it should stay away from remaking things this early and stick to simply adding back things that were universally liked. Keeping it simple and easy might make it more likely to stick around. Even super strong things like Singularity and Haste should just be put back in as-is (as-was?) and if they need to be nerfed further (they do) then handle that later. Just get something that can be put up on berotato or whichever server first and iron out the details once that's done.
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Dec 20, 2017 14:03
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PMush Perfect posted:Yeah. If there's anything to learn from the current DCSS devteam, it's that losing sight of the reasons behind your stated design goals can cause... issues. I second this. There's no need for an item with separate stats. They can have all the same stats as maces just with a different tile and name and they only appear in Yiuf's vault. It's a dumb joke, but hammers are an object we're all likely to encounter that a fictional, amusing crazy person could become obsessed with. Maces are just stupid in that context. Another two things I'd like to see come back are book amnesia and the spellpower boost to dragon's call while in dragonform (tiny issue and something that was only in trunk for a very short time, but this was the first change I saw in crawl that made me uncomfortable about the game's design direction).
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Dec 20, 2017 14:37
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I started the wiki.
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Dec 20, 2017 15:06
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I love the formatting of the requested features page. Edit: Sorry, that was a pointlessly snarky comment. Floodkiller is awesome and thank you for being by far the best contributor to the thread! Heithinn Grasida fucked around with this message at 16:59 on Dec 20, 2017 |
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Dec 20, 2017 15:21
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I am Otis posted:Everyone make a Hodge podge version of dcss and post it here. I'd play them all. This. They sound fun and interesting. This is a much better direction for the thread than having to read hathsinn whatevers' description of how much we all suck for disliking changes and daring to talk about them in this thread.
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Dec 20, 2017 15:26
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Bring back amulets of resist slowing and berserk spell It's probably overpowered but I've always thought that berserking is too fun to be left for Troggites only
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Dec 20, 2017 15:27
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This is the most excitement I've felt in Crawl design in a long time. Nice job, Floodkiller.
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Dec 20, 2017 15:54
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FulsomFrank posted:This is the most excitement I've felt in Crawl design in a long time. Nice job, Floodkiller. 
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Dec 20, 2017 16:31
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Captain Monkey posted:This is a much better direction for the thread than having to read hathsinn whatevers' description of how much we all suck for disliking changes and daring to talk about them in this thread. Heithinn Grasida posted:There are lots of changes that I don't like and I'm happy when I see people being vocal about them.  Beware! I'm about to tell you why you all suck! No, actually this is what I think is wrong with crawl design and how gooncrawl could improve on it. I don't blame you if you don't like my posts. I write long, wordy posts about game design because I'm a huge nerd and that's what I like to do. I once described Crawl as a minimalist game with maximalist tendencies. I've always favored a slightly more maximalist approach compared to the status quo, but in recent versions, I feel the game is shrinking towards a much stricter minimalism as its cardinal principle. Cutting extraneous content is good design. The reasons for that have been brought up many times and I fundamentally agree. But the meaning of extraneous is not inherently clear. Something can be extraneous in one way and not another. The criteria for determining what kind of content is desirable have shifted in DCSS. Here I'll list what I think are the various ways in which development has moved towards an excessively minimalist approach and how I think a potential Gooncrawl should differ. These statements are not absolute. In fact, in most cases, I think the devs handle these issue well, and are only off by a matter of degree, not principle. -Excessive denial of fantasy: 'Roleplay' is a dirty word for Crawl, and that's fine. This is not that kind of game. But it is still a fantasy RPG. Ogres, dwarves and elves are inseparable from the game to a certain extent. Even if their names are changed, they shouldn't be completely separated. On a macro scale, the specific features of a species, or any other piece of content, are far more significant than its name. But if its name is dissonant with what the content represents in game mechanics, either the name or the mechanics should change. The above is not controversial. What is more so, but I believe to be an important failing of current dev trends, is that content ought to accommodate fantasy to a certain degree. People want to make an agile swordsman character that wears light armor and casts some spells. Previously, they played high elf for that. High elf was removed with the idea in mind that they ought to just be playing human, draconian or another strong hybrid species and invest in dex and dodging. But that's not very psychologically rewarding, since not only the name, but also the numbers associated with the species don't feel rewarding to someone who goes into the character creation screen with a certain concept in mind. So, high elf, even if we accept the argument that it was mechanically extraneous, was important in the more significant realm of player reward. Even if we accept the argument that lowering Ogres' m&f apt creates more choices, it doesn't have that effect in the mind of the majority of players looking at the character creation screen. Crawl is now tending to ignore what people want to play in favor of what they ought to want to play, which is a bad direction to go. -Emphasis on removing fluff: hammers, pizza and boulder beetles didn't add much to the game mechanically. People even didn't like boulder beetles for understandable reasons. But just because something is not necessary to game mechanics, doesn't mean it should be removed. The game needs texture. There need to be things that ground the player in the game and let them create images of what's going on aside from pure mechanics. And there need to be things that take them out of the game and have a break. Removing those hurts the game. -Too much focus on preventing optimal, but very unlikely play. Duvessa posted in the Tavern that vampires and mummies pose a serious design problem. She said that either those species should be removed or they should be required to eat. If they don't, a player could stand on the stairs for tens of thousands of turns, while all the enemies come to them one by one, and stair dance them in safety. Certainly it's necessary for the game to prevent abusive play to an extent. If it confers such such an advantage compared the tedium of performing it that players feel it isn't a choice, it needs to be removed. But if Duvessa is the only person who would ever even conceive of doing it, it shouldn't be removed. Optimal, but tedious play needs to be balanced against the soft value such play provides to the game. Resting for tens of thousands of turns at the stairs is the correct punishment for resting for tens of thousands of turns at the stairs. -Not enough attention payed to what the community likes: It's perfectly reasonable for the dev team to make the game they like. And I hardly believe that every change suggested by the community ought to make it into the game. But changes are now overly conservative, and dev responses to what people like are overtly caustic and diminutive. I don't view the devs as an elite, but most people think they speak to others as if they are. I think it's very likely a number of people community have just as good a sense of design as the devs. So the devs ought to be willing to engage more, and need to post nasty remarks less, unless the nasty remarks are funny, interesting and contribute to the discussion (they aren't and they don't). -Excessive focus on simplicity: Insistence on simple play and clear mechanics (except with the large number of cases where the devs arbitrarily think this rule doesn't apply, like with accuracy, spell power depictions and damage numbers) generally differentiates, and in my opinion, elevates Crawl above other roguelikes. But again, the value of clear mechanics has to be weighed against other factors. Making people feel like the game has cool flavorful options that give players choices, like book amnesia, is more important than perfect simplicity and clarity of design. If anyone actually made it to the end of that, please tell me why it's wrong. Maybe this is pointless, Floodkiller will get bored and decide we suck anyway, and nobody else will work on the project. But I'm writing about and discussing the game because that's what I like to do. As a final point, I want to post a comment PF made to a commit in 2014. Pleasing Fungus posted:This is unlikely to affect any player's decisions, but it is good to encourage players to do cool things. I don't think any dev would make this comment today, and that's why I think today's devs suck.
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Dec 20, 2017 16:51
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I made it to the end of that, and it seems fair enough. I agree with basically all of it (as a filthy casual player).
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