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Why can't we all agree that the latin american left governments have been a disaster for the last two decades?
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Dec 18, 2017 20:59
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El Chingon posted:Why can't we all agree that the latin american left governments have been a disaster for the last two decades? Depends on whether you rate Lula's two mandates as left or as a disaster, because honestly poo poo was just fine back then but it was centrist as gently caress.
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Dec 18, 2017 21:04
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El Chingon posted:Why can't we all agree that the latin american Could you just say this, though?
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Dec 18, 2017 22:00
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hoiyes posted:Could you just say this, though? Some were good 
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Dec 18, 2017 22:51
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When you fight the cops but still have to make a buck.
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Dec 19, 2017 02:46
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This guy is loving everywhere now/s3.amazonaws.com/arc-wordpress-client-uploads/infobae-wp/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/18164525/Congreso-represion-reforma-previsional-181217-3.jpg) And he used to be a candidate for del Caño's party (left) /s3.amazonaws.com/arc-wordpress-client-uploads/infobae-wp/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/18193936/Sebastian-Rodrigo-Romero-Mortero-SF-1.jpg) As you can probably guess, since this is the Latin America thread, he's in all kinds of Simpsons memes already 
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Dec 19, 2017 03:00
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Dec 19, 2017 03:07
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Sebastian Romero? With that mane he might as well be John.
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Dec 19, 2017 03:11
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That guy looks dope as hell
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Dec 19, 2017 03:20
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wateroverfire posted:It's better for everyone to spend less now (especially on things that don't have a good return on investment), take a small economic hit now, and not end up in that situation down the road. lol it's not like Keynes didn't figure out that this was a bad idea 80 years ago or anything wateroverfire posted:I mean...it's not, really? A country gets into a debt crisis by accumulating obligations that grow too large for it to make payments on. The bond market gets scared and investors stop lending the country money and you have a debt crisis. The problem is unsustainable deficit spending and not welfare spending specifically but welfare spending does contribute. =P The eurocrisis prompted a lot of study on this: there's no correlation of welfare investment and debt interest. Mark Blyth is a good reference like people mentioned in the thread but I feel like your mind is already made up on this.  Non Serviam could make the political case that the welfare plans were bad because they would not accomplish what they're promising and I would've believed that. Or he could say they were not characters that inspire confidence in the whole economic geopolitical game, and I guess I could get that. But saying "this is unrealistic, this welfare would've bankrupted the country, there's no such a thing as a free lunch durr" just lost all credibility to me, it's just repeating the worst conservative memes.
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Dec 19, 2017 03:34
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hey governments reading this, try to spend more on Good Things instead of Bad Things. but please don't stop spending lol
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Dec 19, 2017 03:37
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Welp, seems the Argentine government angered some middle-class people now (the only important people in the country, not those lousy protestors from today noon) with the pensions reform act, so now they're banging pots and pans in many cities and marching towards the Congress palace in the capital.
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Dec 19, 2017 04:05
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Symbolic Butt posted:lol it's not like Keynes didn't figure out that this was a bad idea 80 years ago or anything It's good that I didn't say that then.
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Dec 19, 2017 09:54
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Tony Sorete posted:Welp, seems the Argentine government angered some middle-class people now (the only important people in the country, not those lousy protestors from today noon) with the pensions reform act, so now they're banging pots and pans in many cities and marching towards the Congress palace in the capital. Good. Now they need to stop voting for him and his garbage made up party. I guess politicans haven't learned to not mess up stuff in the middle of december. I hope they keep that helicopter well oiled and ready to go 
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Dec 19, 2017 10:13
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Nothing's really gonna change, for a while. This law hides a trap: its actual results will be unknown until March. Any motions in court against it will be dismissed as abstract and any protests interpreted (spun, really) as yet another attempt by the opposition to create unrest against the government. The real problem here, as usual, is the growing national debt and quasi-fiscal deficit. We'll be in a Greece-like situation in a relatively short time.
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Dec 19, 2017 12:00
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Markovnikov posted:Good. Now they need to stop voting for him and his garbage made up party. I have a layover in Argentina soon, so at least I hope they will at least stop the general strike on the airports. I saw that it has been chaos there.
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Dec 19, 2017 12:02
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Policía de la ciudad. "Proteger y servir" "to protect and serve" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFRUdeOksG8
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Dec 19, 2017 13:41
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Dec 19, 2017 15:30
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Hahaha YES
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Dec 19, 2017 16:15
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Never saw this coming, and I'm happy I didn't
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Dec 19, 2017 17:32
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Larreta gave me a free tote bag once so i'm fine with all of this really
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Dec 19, 2017 18:31
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wateroverfire posted:That's a fair point. Look at the edit I made above (that I was doing while you were posting, apparantly). Austerity is generally something that happens once the country has already poo poo the bed and there are no good outcomes. Spending a little less to get the budget in balance so it doesn't end up in that situation does not have the same growth implications. Perhaps governments could get better revenue streams by, say, raising taxes on the upper classes and nationalizing things. Right wing retards love to bring up Venezuela, but no one talks about Norway which ALSO had nationalized oil, put it in a sovereign wealth fund that's worth like a trillion USD now and has a well funded welfare state off it. Venezuela is a poo poo model to follow not because left wing/socialist policies are bad, but because they did it badly.
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Dec 19, 2017 20:20
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On a theoretical level, I don't know how anyone can argue against a social welfare state in good faith. On a practical level, I know the few attempts made at it in LatAm were half-assed and pretty distorted, so I understand being disappointed at the model. Regardless, it's not like people are talking about full-blown utopical communism, I just want progressive taxation and for any austerity measures to be focused towards ALL, instead of meaning the working class gets hosed while the oligarchs raise their profit margins (which happened in Brazil when we decided to go for a bit of "trickle-down economics"). Unfortunately political discourse is both so lazy and so exhausting nowadays that people just settled into left/right and we'll continue to get hosed until we die.
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Dec 19, 2017 20:26
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Dias posted:On a theoretical level, I don't know how anyone can argue against a social welfare state in good faith. On a practical level, I know the few attempts made at it in LatAm were half-assed and pretty distorted, so I understand being disappointed at the model. Regardless, it's not like people are talking about full-blown utopical communism, I just want progressive taxation and for any austerity measures to be focused towards ALL, instead of meaning the working class gets hosed while the oligarchs raise their profit margins (which happened in Brazil when we decided to go for a bit of "trickle-down economics"). Unfortunately political discourse is both so lazy and so exhausting nowadays that people just settled into left/right and we'll continue to get hosed until we die. I agree, but it needs to be emphasized that the fact that Venezuela was run by lovely corrupt people enriching themselves is not an argument against left wing efforts to build a good welfare state for the entire population instead or an argument for cunts like Temer and the vulture fund stooge in charge of Argentina to be allowed to rape their countries for their obligarch buddies.
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Dec 19, 2017 20:34
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The worst part about the lazy left/right debate in Latin America is that it is done almost entirely at a shallow symbolic level. It's vapid cold war redux as opposed to focusing on actual material policies.  Latin American governments are incredibly bad in terms of redistributing income. Tax and welfare policies in the US or Europe are substantially to the left of any Latin American nation. But people can't seem to see beyond shallow cold war symbolic fights.
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Dec 19, 2017 20:45
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tekz posted:I agree, but it needs to be emphasized that the fact that Venezuela was run by lovely corrupt people enriching themselves is not an argument against left wing efforts to build a good welfare state for the entire population instead or an argument for cunts like Temer and the vulture fund stooge in charge of Argentina to be allowed to rape their countries for their obligarch buddies. Venezuela was badly administered and that became a disastrous quasi-dictatorship. The left isn't immune to terrible governments, which is something a couple of my hard-line marxist friends have trouble admitting. Of course there are more nuances to it (and the opposition) than we get watching Globo, but it's unequivocably BAD. That being said, yes, the issues with Venezuela go beyond "communism", and that people equal that to any sort of social welfare is baffling to me. It's even more baffling that people - educated people - don't notice stuff like what joe posted, that they don't protest it, that they don't DISCUSS it. When they do pay attention to the problem, it's usually to the most shallow, São Paulo bourgeoise pundit with the hot take of "taxes are bad". It drives me mad. We can't ever implement a system to even out this country because the average middle-class Brazilian gets that they are being overtaxed, but not that they are being overtaxed IN LIEU of an almost inherited oligarchy. That teachers don't ask for raises, they ask for their salary to REMAIN THE SAME. That we have a criminality problem but we're not in Rambo 2 so the answer is not to massacre every black people that might be involved with drug trafficking. That corruption has devastated Brazil but it's not limited to the One Guy in The Red Shirt. In fact, that they voted and continue to vote on corrupt leaders just because they dress nice and talk nice and study abroad. It's a goddamn shallow country. In summary, nuke Projac and then São Paulo.
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Dec 19, 2017 21:22
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it’s looking more and more likely in the Honduran presidential election that the conservative party rigged the elections after finding out they were going to lose https://twitter.com/jakobjohnston/status/943171121012183041
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Dec 19, 2017 21:30
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Zikan posted:it’s looking more and more likely in the Honduran presidential election that the conservative party rigged the elections after finding out they were going to lose Of course, it had been known for weeks: https://www.economist.com/news/americas/21731725-recording-obtained-economist-suggests-it-may-be-merits-investigation-hondurass
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Dec 19, 2017 21:34
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Zikan posted:it’s looking more and more likely in the Honduran presidential election that the conservative party rigged the elections after finding out they were going to lose I guess no one believes this was a fair win. Although I don't remember which side is backed by the US.
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Dec 19, 2017 23:15
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Dias posted:Venezuela was badly administered and that became a disastrous quasi-dictatorship. The left isn't immune to terrible governments, which is something a couple of my hard-line marxist friends have trouble admitting. Of course there are more nuances to it (and the opposition) than we get watching Globo, but it's unequivocably BAD. That being said, yes, the issues with Venezuela go beyond "communism", and that people equal that to any sort of social welfare is baffling to me. It's even more baffling that people - educated people - don't notice stuff like what joe posted, that they don't protest it, that they don't DISCUSS it. When they do pay attention to the problem, it's usually to the most shallow, São Paulo bourgeoise pundit with the hot take of "taxes are bad". It drives me mad. We can't ever implement a system to even out this country because the average middle-class Brazilian gets that they are being overtaxed, but not that they are being overtaxed IN LIEU of an almost inherited oligarchy. That teachers don't ask for raises, they ask for their salary to REMAIN THE SAME. That we have a criminality problem but we're not in Rambo 2 so the answer is not to massacre every black people that might be involved with drug trafficking. That corruption has devastated Brazil but it's not limited to the One Guy in The Red Shirt. In fact, that they voted and continue to vote on corrupt leaders just because they dress nice and talk nice and study abroad. It's a goddamn shallow country. I mean reading up on it Bolivia has the same turbo charged left government then Venezuela has and is doing relatively well. It seems like there were a lot of factors at play, such as the corruption difference between the two countries, leadership, and having the entire economy depend on one single resource.
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Dec 19, 2017 23:55
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El Chingon posted:I guess no one believes this was a fair win. Although I don't remember which side is backed by the US. If the choice is the conservative party vs. something else it's pretty easy to guess.
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Dec 20, 2017 00:08
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punk rebel ecks posted:I mean reading up on it Bolivia has the same turbo charged left government then Venezuela has and is doing relatively well. It seems like there were a lot of factors at play, such as the corruption difference between the two countries, leadership, and having the entire economy depend on one single resource. I mean, Venezuela forgot the key part of being a petrostate - never let your oil selling/transfer infrastructure get ruined.
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Dec 20, 2017 00:21
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Tony Sorete posted:Welp, seems the Argentine government angered some middle-class people now (the only important people in the country, not those lousy protestors from today noon) with the pensions reform act, so now they're banging pots and pans in many cities and marching towards the Congress palace in the capital. They're going at it again tonight, same spots as yesterday evening. Yesterday's protests lasted until the early morning when the pensions reform was approved... today at 7 AM. Not casually, our Congress is again in session working on another act to reform certain aspects of our tax code.
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Dec 20, 2017 01:38
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punk rebel ecks posted:I mean reading up on it Bolivia has the same turbo charged left government then Venezuela has and is doing relatively well. It seems like there were a lot of factors at play, such as the corruption difference between the two countries, leadership, and having the entire economy depend on one single resource. It was pretty difficult to gently caress the country more than it already was. Also, they've had the same president for the past decade and seems we will have more Evo for the time being, I don't know if this is considered dictatorial. I used to hang out with a community of Bolivian expats while working in Lima and they all talked poo poo about their government.
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Dec 20, 2017 01:43
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El Chingon posted:It was pretty difficult to gently caress the country more than it already was. Also, they've had the same president for the past decade and seems we will have more Evo for the time being, I don't know if this is considered dictatorial. I used to hang out with a community of Bolivian expats while working in Lima and they all talked poo poo about their government. It's a country that continues to blame their loss in the war of the pacific for having poverty and unemployment. Yes, it's poo poo
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Dec 20, 2017 01:49
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I really don't know enough about Bolivia to make a judgement but if you were to ask Brazilian ex-pats they would tell you we were in North Korea so I'unno. It doesn't seem to be as bad as Venezuela at least.
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Dec 20, 2017 01:54
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Non Serviam posted:It's a country that continues to blame their loss in the war of the pacific for having poverty and unemployment. Yes, it's poo poo why I am not surprised with this post coming up from a rightward chilean joepinetree posted:The worst part about the lazy left/right debate in Latin America is that it is done almost entirely at a shallow symbolic level. It's vapid cold war redux as opposed to focusing on actual material policies. thank you very much for this I mean, people still come up and go "WATCH OUT FOR COMMUNISM" when the best state manager of capital nowadays is the communist party of China and the USSR has been done for a while, Brazil is where ideologies come to die
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Dec 20, 2017 02:47
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Dias posted:Unfortunately political discourse is both so lazy and so exhausting nowadays that people just settled into left/right and we'll continue to get hosed until we die. Dias posted:That being said, yes, the issues with Venezuela go beyond "communism", and that people equal that to any sort of social welfare is baffling to me.
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Dec 20, 2017 08:10
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so a vote passed to lower pensions and people went out on a gigantic protest https://my.mixtape.moe/pegnjw.mp4 seen: Police force repressing violent protester
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Dec 20, 2017 08:43
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fishmech posted:I mean, Venezuela forgot the key part of being a petrostate - never let your oil selling/transfer infrastructure get ruined. I have talked about in the Venezuela thread, but the PSUV really made all the wrong choices especially after 2004. They depleted their main source of exports through under-investment, instituted completely unworkable price controls on daily goods and became deeply reliant on imports because of it, and allowed the currency to inflate then hyper-inflate. I think a big part of it is that simply Chavez and his inter-circle really didn't know what they were doing and sort of tried to create a cargo-cult version of the Soviet Union without knowing the history or interworking of the Soviet economy. (Admittedly, only a handful of people actually know how it worked in reality.) If the left in Latin America takes Venezuela as an actual model, then yes, there is room to worry but it sounded like the election in Chile was between the right and a rather milquetoast social democrat...so any comparison with the PSUV is just a smear.
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Dec 20, 2017 11:28
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