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The obvious reading based on everything we know seems reasonably obvious to me, if we want to compare it to real historical events: the First Order is Space Franco, and the New (some might say Second) Republic is the Second Republic. The Resistance could be any number of paramilitaries acting in defence of, but outside the direct control of, the republic itself.
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Dec 21, 2017 01:59
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Tender Bender posted:The stakes are whether every single sympathetic character in the film gets murdered by space Nazis. The Fo aren't nazis. It's not clear what they are. Hell it looks like they've been pretty much defeated already in 7, given they seem to only have 3 ships. Hell, they might even be the good guys, who knows? Kylo is the only character who seems to have any principals (however muddled they may be) and now he's the head of the Fo. The sympathetic characters don't appear to be fighting for anything but their own survival, which is only in jeopardy because they're fighting the Fo! I mean if the resistance wins, would they just start their own galactic dictatorship (if that's what the Fo even is!), led by Leia and Purple?
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Dec 21, 2017 02:01
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Sinding Johansson posted:That doesn't really explain what the light side of the force is supposed to be other than not the dark side. The jedi were never all that good even in the OT. Obiwan and Yoda try to trick Luke into abandoning his friends to die and committing patricide. drat, dude. OK... let's package this a bit differently to make it clearer. Force: Neutral alignment Light Side: Good alignment Dark Side: Evil alignment The Force has a tendency towards Neutral. If too many Good alignment people are using the Force, Evil alignment people will pop up to balance them out, and vice versa. Jedi is just a label for a specific order of Good alignment Force users who, yes, were deeply flawed by entrenched bureaucracy and complaisance to the point that they were almost Lawful Neutral, but individual Jedi still had a tendency towards Good alignment. Sith is just a label for a specific order of Evil alignment Force users who are deeply psychologically hosed up. e: Oh, and just like in the alignment system, your alignment can change... being turned to the Dark Side is literally giving in to the temptation to use the immense power available to you for revenge, destruction, personal gain... Evil... while being 'redeemed' to the Light Side is actively making the decision to be ethical, stand against evil... you know, Good. this is not actually very complicated SadisTech fucked around with this message at 02:14 on Dec 21, 2017 |
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Dec 21, 2017 02:04
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Huh, I took away from all the light side/dark side talk that it wasn't necessarily the Force itself choosing champions, but an inevitable consequence that if you try to raise heroes some of them will be seduced by power and if you try to conquer as villains there will be plucky upstarts threatening your rule. Ultimately the only way to have peace is to not let either get very far. I feel like the problem of where the First Order came from is solvable without too much trouble, and it's a shame neither of the sequel movies so far have gone into it. The most straightforward explanation is that they were Empire loyalists that built an insurrectionist faction, started a civil war with the Republic and alpha-striked their leadership before the Republic even took them seriously as a threat. If that is the case, it paints a smaller image of the First Order than the movies would imply - it wouldn't have the full resources the Empire commanded, which ties in with it being run mostly by immature blowhards, and leaves it at the end of TLJ severely weakened by the losses it incurred there just like the Rebellion was. It would even address the whole "why not just hyperdrive-manouvre all your enemies" thing since it'd mean neither side could afford to lose capital ships. Unfortunately, nothing in the movies really indicates that they're in that position. They still could if someone could make some reference to the general situation of the galaxy, but we're left assuming they're just the Empire that came back. It's a shame, because I felt that this movie was the best of the Star Wars series, but this is the main flaw that still bites at me from TFA.
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Dec 21, 2017 02:05
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pospysyl posted:
I feel like if you need a detailed biography on snoke the plan is that they are going to have 700 star wars tie ins over the next 50 years that will eventually explain the exact details of every detail of his life to the point there is a tie in comic explaining the origin of his bathrobe. But if you can't wait for that his origin is "we've gone over this sith story line enough times by now, you get it right? he's one of those" where they trust the audience to fill in the blanks and expect you to follow along. Owlofcreamcheese fucked around with this message at 02:11 on Dec 21, 2017 |
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Dec 21, 2017 02:09
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Going back to the casino scene, it seems the whole conflict between the Fo and the resistance has been orchestrated by unseen financiers to sell storm trooper dolls. Luke is threatening because he refuses to license his image. His redemption is that he learns it's ok to sell his likeness. This is pretty much the plot of episode 1 & 2 but less focused.
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Dec 21, 2017 02:11
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Personal head-canon is that, just like Kylo Ren is the edgy Sith name taken on by Ben Solo, Supreme Leader Snoke is the edgy Sith name taken on by Jar Jar Binks
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Dec 21, 2017 02:11
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Snoke comes from the Unknown Regions, beyond the galaxy and full of others, like the Asian-coded Yuuzhan Vong.
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Dec 21, 2017 02:14
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:I feel like if you need a detailed biography on snoke the plan is that they are going to have 700 star wars tie ins over the next 50 years that will eventually explain the exact details of every detail of his life to the point there is a tie in comic explaining the origin of his bathrobe. But if you can't wait for that his origin is "we've gone over this sith story line enough times by now, you get it right? he's one of those" where they trust the audience to fill in the blanks and expect you to follow along. We don’t need a origin tho. People like you acting like smug nerds are arguing in bad faith. There was a really good post just on the last page on how the OT setup the Empire and the Emperor in 2 films. So far we are left with nothing much and just going “oh... they’re bad... ok”
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Dec 21, 2017 02:17
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Basebf555 posted:Why does it have to be the same thing? What if it were something more interesting than that, like, something worthy of doing a movie about. Why does Star Wars have to be about rebels fighting an evil Empire. Is that really a requirement? Are you expecting things to reset after this trilogy, and we'll be watching Rey's kids fight another, different Empire? I mean i guess it might have been? But they didn't go with it. There is a story that essentially tells focuses on the background really well in the EU if you wanna see how it turns out, its the Thrawn Trilogy. It works for that trilogy though because the writer decided to focus a large part of the story around Thrawn, who's main motivation was just rebuilding the empire. Personally I thought they pretty much explored it full in the prequels, and look how much making a movie about the how's and why's of the SW Universe turned out The story they wrote was instead focused on Kylo Ren and his conflict about living in the shadow of Darth Vader, as well as the meta story of the new trilogy trying to live up to the Originals. The First Order and Snoke only really exist to facilitate this. The important thing is that Ren kills Snoke and becomes the Emperor from his own reasons, which he discovered through his conversations with Rey. That's the important part of the story and where they spent the majority of their screen time with. Which I would say is more effective story telling as Rey is main character, its just a shame JJ Abrams is bad and her motivations weren't properly developed. Focusing on how the First Order started takes away from the important parts of the movie, i'm fine with them leaving it out because I really don't think it adds anything to what they wanted to explore. Hamburger Sandwich fucked around with this message at 02:25 on Dec 21, 2017 |
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Dec 21, 2017 02:20
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Sinding Johansson posted:The Fo aren't nazis. It's not clear what they are. Hell it looks like they've been pretty much defeated already in 7, given they seem to only have 3 ships. Hell, they might even be the good guys, who knows? Kylo is the only character who seems to have any principals (however muddled they may be) and now he's the head of the Fo. The sympathetic characters don't appear to be fighting for anything but their own survival, which is only in jeopardy because they're fighting the Fo! I mean if the resistance wins, would they just start their own galactic dictatorship (if that's what the Fo even is!), led by Leia and Purple? If you are seriously wondering any of those questions I don't think any amount of backstory would have helped you.
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Dec 21, 2017 02:21
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Vintersorg posted:We don’t need a origin tho. People like you acting like smug nerds are arguing in bad faith. There was a really good post just on the last page on how the OT setup the Empire and the Emperor in 2 films. Have you ever read the book "the time machine"? Actually read it? In adaptations they generally just tell the part with the time machine and the morlocks and the eloi, in the books a full half of the book is everyone going to a college class to get a detailed explanation of the idea of what a time machine is. Likewise mario 64 has the camera introduced as a in world character that talks to you and explains what a camera is in a 3D game. Later works about time machines or games with cameras didn't do that. After the work was done everyone got it and they didn't have to explain that stuff again. The first movies about siths and empires and stuff they spend a lot of time to set up. After that? you get it. You don't actually have any important questions about snoke that you actually can't answer. They don't actually have to explain it to you again, you saw the movies and know "he's another one of those", just like every time a storm trooper is on screen you don't need them to break the action to explain this new storm trooper. Snoke is generic sith bad dude #2431 between maul and grievous, you get who he is. But again, literally, if you are interested in his story do not actually worry, they will make a tie in comic or future movie or videogame or animation going into absolute detail. Like you can read 6 separate books about the history and fate of each of darth vader's gloves. But none of it is going to be anything you needed to know to understand this movie.
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Dec 21, 2017 02:30
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Porg eat the chewie
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Dec 21, 2017 02:33
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The backstory and especially the vague framing of what's going on regarding the First Order, the Republic, and the Resistance is a serious issue in TFA. It's mostly pretty well established what the score is in TLJ although it could still have been fleshed out. However these are the movies we've got and I don't think it's particularly interesting to repeatedly hear how someone's fanfiction improves the movie.
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Dec 21, 2017 02:36
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Vintersorg posted:We don’t need a origin tho. People like you acting like smug nerds are arguing in bad faith. There was a really good post just on the last page on how the OT setup the Empire and the Emperor in 2 films. That's what giving your villains some definition does; not just satisfy an EU need for more information, but give the story context and emotional weight to the events that happen. ANH lays out its cards in the opening crawl: the Empire rules the galaxy, they have a weapon that can blow up planets, Leia has plans that can help defeat it, and the goal of the heroes is to use those plans to "save her people and restore freedom to the galaxy". We know what to expect from the villains, we know what our heroes need to do, we know what will happen if they don't. TLJ unfortunately doesn't provide much more context to the overall struggle, but it generally sidesteps the issue by making the stakes about the survival of these three ships and the heroes we know who are on them. Lord Hydronium fucked around with this message at 02:44 on Dec 21, 2017 |
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Dec 21, 2017 02:41
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Tender Bender posted:I don't think it's particularly interesting to repeatedly hear how someone's fanfiction improves the movie. amen to this
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Dec 21, 2017 02:42
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Tender Bender posted:The backstory and especially the vague framing of what's going on regarding the First Order, the Republic, and the Resistance is a serious issue in TFA. It's mostly pretty well established what the score is in TLJ although it could still have been fleshed out. However these are the movies we've got and I don't think it's particularly interesting to repeatedly hear how someone's fanfiction improves the movie. I look forward to playing everybodies "This is My Version of The Last Jedi" campaigns for the Star Wars pen and paper RPG. I call dibs on the Sexist Misogynist Ace Pilot archetype.
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Dec 21, 2017 02:44
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Tender Bender posted:Why aren't people giving the crank call scene the "why didn't anyone try this earlier?" treatment
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Dec 21, 2017 02:45
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Tenebrais posted:Huh, I took away from all the light side/dark side talk that it wasn't necessarily the Force itself choosing champions, but an inevitable consequence that if you try to raise heroes some of them will be seduced by power and if you try to conquer as villains there will be plucky upstarts threatening your rule. Ultimately the only way to have peace is to not let either get very far. This is exactly what I got out of it. The Force isn't consciously making stuff happen, just that the philosophies/ideals of Jedi/Sith make war an inevitable consequence purely by existing. It isn't that evildoers have to be balanced 1:1 with good guys, rather that if you raise children in intense discipline and seclusion while telling them they're better than regular people, some are going to conclude that they should be running the show. edit: I'd like to think the end-game of this is the reveal that everyone is Force-sensitive. It could be like how everyone can theoretically learn kung-fu. Not everyone has the time or the inclination, but you'll get rare, talented people that devote a lifetime to it and become masters. Everyone else just gets a spiritual awakening and a connection to the cosmos. Roll on Star Peace! Necrothatcher fucked around with this message at 02:51 on Dec 21, 2017 |
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Dec 21, 2017 02:46
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I think I'm starting to see a trend here where people who hate the film (beyond a technical level) conceive of the Force through an atheistic-Christian-ish lens where there is a universal sense of good and evil, that the Divine (the true Force & the Jedi) are free from the Dark Side. (sin, corruption) and that people can "fall" or be "redeemed" between the two states and there is a specific path in which to achieve that. Folks who like the film seem to be comfortable with the interpretation that the Force is a Zen or Tao-like balance and morality is relative to the beholder. "Wisdom" about how this balance works is what really matters.
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Dec 21, 2017 03:02
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Mameluke posted:Snoke comes from the Unknown Regions, beyond the galaxy and full of others, like the Asian-coded Yuuzhan Vong. Snoke pulled on the edges of his eyes to make them all squinty then quoted some lines from mr Yunioshi.
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Dec 21, 2017 03:44
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Sinding Johansson posted:The Fo aren't nazis. It's not clear what they are. Hell it looks like they've been pretty much defeated already in 7, given they seem to only have 3 ships. Hell, they might even be the good guys, who knows? Kylo is the only character who seems to have any principals (however muddled they may be) and now he's the head of the Fo. The sympathetic characters don't appear to be fighting for anything but their own survival, which is only in jeopardy because they're fighting the Fo! I mean if the resistance wins, would they just start their own galactic dictatorship (if that's what the Fo even is!), led by Leia and Purple? they killed like a hundred billion people two days before this movie started
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Dec 21, 2017 03:46
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Bip Roberts posted:they killed like a hundred billion people two days before this movie started They might have been billions of really bad people! Like three whole planets of bad people! You dunno!
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Dec 21, 2017 04:09
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Basically the entire Resistance is dead, I don't see how this film can unironically sell the ending as a hopeful one. This movie, more than the other Star Wars films, has a perverse way of brushing off huge numbers of on-screen deaths.
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Dec 21, 2017 04:19
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Vegetable posted:Basically the entire Resistance is dead, I don't see how this film can unironically sell the ending as a hopeful one. This movie, more than the other Star Wars films, has a perverse way of brushing off huge numbers of on-screen deaths. It’s not meant to be, this is where the protagonists are at their lowest, most desperate point. You could easily say the same thing about ESB.
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Dec 21, 2017 04:22
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Bip Roberts posted:they killed like a hundred billion people two days before this movie started No one is upset about that in TFA. I don't think it's even mentioned except in passing.
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Dec 21, 2017 04:26
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Sinding Johansson posted:No one is upset about that in TFA. I don't think it's even mentioned except in passing. Finn is distressed for like 20 seconds, but bizarrely it's the thing that turns him away from his plan to run the gently caress away from the First Order
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Dec 21, 2017 04:27
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Vegetable posted:Basically the entire Resistance is dead, I don't see how this film can unironically sell the ending as a hopeful one.  Seriously, though, the whole ending montage (and a lot of other parts of the movie, but just talking about the ending for now) is to show that resistance isn't just an organization of the people onboard the Falcon, it's an idea that the good guys spread, and one that gains power through symbols like Luke and the rest of the heroes. The slave kid with the broom is part of the resistance even if he's not flying an X-wing or shooting a blaster. What that means for Episode IX is anyone's guess, but if it continues the ideas of VIII we ought to see the Resistance (capital R) joined by the people of the galaxy they're fighting to protect.
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Dec 21, 2017 04:34
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Lord Hydronium posted:The slave kid with the broom is part of the resistance even if he's not flying an X-wing or shooting a blaster. Does Fo control that planet? I didn't see any sign of that. It's pretty clear that the slavers are bankrolled by both Fo and the resistance alike.
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Dec 21, 2017 04:37
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Lord Hydronium posted:Amazing. Every word of what you just said is wrong.
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Dec 21, 2017 05:00
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Vegetable posted:This movie, more than the other Star Wars films, has a perverse way of brushing off huge numbers of on-screen deaths. I would argue there have been other Star Wars with much more on screen deaths and have brushed it off with a far greater degree. AndyElusive fucked around with this message at 05:11 on Dec 21, 2017 |
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Dec 21, 2017 05:04
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Vegetable posted:You seem to have missed the part where everybody ignored the Resistance's call to arms. Nobody's coming to save these idiots, brother. I think this is why they put the Luke part after that. People might be more apt to be like, “Ok maybe these people do have a chance. Luke fuckin Skywalker is on their side and just stood down an entire army. And they have another Jedi too. Let’s help out a bit.” I think that’s the reason Luke showed up as a symbol of hope too. Not just as a distraction but also as the spark of hope or whatever wordy way they kept phrasing it
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Dec 21, 2017 05:04
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Did we find out why Finn parked the ship in an illegal parking zone instead of just normal parking spots?
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Dec 21, 2017 05:04
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ghostinmyshell posted:Did we find out why Finn parked the ship in an illegal parking zone instead of just normal parking spots? Because he's 100% Rebel Scum.
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Dec 21, 2017 05:06
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Kevin Palpatine posted:Kylo stands on the ashes of his predecessor, invoking a newer, more authoritarian regime after a temporary truce with a more democratic ally. TLJ is good now.
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Dec 21, 2017 05:09
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I really would like to know what Ren wants to use the First Order to, like, do.
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Dec 21, 2017 05:24
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I just watched Dunkirk and boy, that’s the movie Rogue One should have been. Absolutely no backstory or contrived ties between the characters and the Death Star plans. Just have them steal the plans and get the hell off the If you weren’t planning on writing three dimensional characters anyways, then just do what Dunkirk did and have the (very basic) characters revolve around the plot instead of the other way around. (Oh wait that’s not how you sell toys) I know this is a year late and not really a Rogue One thread but after watching Dunkirk it just really clicked for me that it’s the kind of movie Rogue One should have been. Especially if these Star Wars Story side movies are going to be the more experimental/outside-the-box films (they won’t be).
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Dec 21, 2017 05:49
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Anyone else notice Dunkirk was the movie Rogue One should have been?
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Dec 21, 2017 06:29
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I don't know if Dunkirk is really the kind of movie a kid would enjoy. But it's 2017, anything is possible I guess.
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Dec 21, 2017 06:36
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So, talking about Snoke. I didn't like Snoke in TFA, wasn't impressed by him at all, he's goofy looking and has a stupid name. All the fan theories about his origin just came across as totally idiotic, and I'm quite happy to learn he was just a prop to set things up and can now be discarded. However. TLJ does make his background seem a lot more important, yet refuses to elaborate. Not who he is or where he came from, that's irrelevant. But he is now very important to Kylo and Luke's stories, and it does seem like there's a gap there. Snoke influenced Kylo towards the Dark Side. Was he specifically targeting Ben, or was Ben just more easily swayed than Luke's other students? That's relevant backstory. Does he even know it was Snoke who was influencing him? That seems kind of relevant. When did they meet, and how did Snoke convince Ben to team up with him and the First Order, instead of heading off and starting his own little empire with his own followers? Again, that's important for understanding why Kylo has only now turned on him. And then there's Luke. Luke knows Snoke was influencing Kylo, but never acted against him. This... doesn't ring true to me. Alright, he feels guilt over his own role in Ben's fall – but shouldn't he be down right furious that some new Sith was force-molesting his nephew? Did Luke think Snoke was too powerful to confront? Why? When? And these are all plot points that TLJ itself raised, not left-over mysteries from TFA. The Emperor could be more of a cypher because the old trilogy wasn't Vader's story to the same degree as this one is Kylo's. As it is, it feels like the lack of detail about Snoke is leaving gaps in a main character's motivations and characterisation, and I can see why people think something's missing here.
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