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nurabsal posted:I just wanted to say, what? Like another revision of the script could have smoothed out some things that appear in a rough way. Conventionally you’d have a character acknowledge or speculate on their presence to give some unity to disparate elements.
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Dec 21, 2017 17:14
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GonSmithe posted:
This is loving insane, everyone in the world has seen this movie already, and it they haven't it's extremely unlikely they're in this thread.
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Dec 21, 2017 17:14
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Do not post open (untagged) spoilers in this thread until a month after release. Not everyone is going to be able to see this right away. If you'd like to use untagged spoilers, please go to the spoiler thread. I'll be giving out harsher than average probations for purposefully untagged spoilers.
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I haven't seen it. But also I'm reading the spoilers anyway
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Dec 21, 2017 17:17
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Oh, one quick thing I forgot to mention. I found it a really neat touch that Leia used the same type of blaster pistol she had on the Tantive IV in ANH to stun Po.
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Dec 21, 2017 17:23
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Based on the divisive reaction TLJ has garnered where there's a pretty clear "holy poo poo why is this different ahhhh" faction and a very thinly veiled "gently caress you nerds" faction I am fully convinced that if TPM were released today exactly as it was it would get the same reaction It's even more political and even more of a radical departure from the OT and TFA than TLJ ever could be And instead of hyperdrive suicide everyone would be writing fanfiction about why Qui-Gon didn't free the slaves
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Dec 21, 2017 17:27
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I just wish we knew more about what Kylo Ren's vision for the galaxy really is. Even if the real reason is just that he's angry and wants to burn down the world that his parents built, he has to have an internal narrative to explain away all the heinous poo poo he's done. The scene where he asks Rey to join him would be more compelling if he had a better sales pitch ("we need to free the slaves", "we need to eat the rich", "the Republic is irredeemably corrupt", "we need to secure the borders to keep the Yuzahn Vong from stealing our jobs", whatever).
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Dec 21, 2017 17:30
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General Dog posted:I just wish we knew more about what Kylo Ren's vision for the galaxy really is. Even if the real reason is just that he's angry and wants to burn down the world that his parents built, he has to have an internal narrative to explain away all the heinous poo poo he's done. The scene where he asks Rey to join him would be more compelling if he had a better sales pitch ("we need to free the slaves", "we need to eat the rich", "the Republic is irredeemably corrupt", "we need to secure the borders to keep the Yuzahn Vong from stealing our jobs", whatever).
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Dec 21, 2017 17:46
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Lord Hydronium posted:I'm not sure he has one at the moment. Killing Snoke is more of a spur of the moment thing, and his actions after that are entirely reactive, being driven by his "kill the past" philosophy rather than any sort of long term vision. His internal narrative seems to be "once I've destroyed all the remnants of the past, we can get started on making something new", but he doesn't seem to know what that new thing is. It's possible that that's how the character has been written, but if so that's disappointing. With the lengths that both movies have gone to to humanize him, it just doesn't jive that he'd murder his father and do all these unthinkable things and burn down the galaxy with no higher purpose in mind. edit: I mean "higher purpose" in his mind, not in an objective sense. General Dog fucked around with this message at 17:56 on Dec 21, 2017 |
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Dec 21, 2017 17:51
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loving "sequel lovers" "prequel apologists" "prequel lovers" "ot holy Trinity" "not my fake person" It's time for the fandom...to end
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Dec 21, 2017 17:53
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On another note though, does anybody think the casino/hacker subplot might have been improved if Poe had tagged along with Finn and Rose rather than staying with the fleet? Yes, Poe is our tether to what's going on with the fleet, but nothing really happens until Finn and Rose get back anyway. It's kind of a waste of Poe's charisma to just have him hanging around with the rest of the Resistance all of the time, which is basically what he's done since the beginning of TFA. I'd kind of like to see him out in the world a bit more.
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Dec 21, 2017 17:55
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General Dog posted:On another note though, does anybody think the casino/hacker subplot might have been improved if Poe had tagged along with Finn and Rose rather than staying with the fleet? Yes, Poe is our tether to what's going on with the fleet, but nothing really happens until Finn and Rose get back anyway. It's kind of a waste of Poe's charisma to just have him hanging around with the rest of the Resistance all of the time, which is basically what he's done since the beginning of TFA. I'd kind of like to see him out in the world a bit more. That was Rian's original thought before he changed it: “Poe originally went on the journey with Finn to Canto Bight. And it was boring. It was just these two dudes on an adventure. I knew something was wrong when I looked at their dialogue and realized I could interchange any of the lines. There wasn’t conflict between them. So I realized I had to come up with something else. Finn needing somebody else to go with who would actually challenge him and push him and contrast with him was where Rose came from.”
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Dec 21, 2017 17:56
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Just scoping out the reactions online there's this weird thing where if you're liberal or woke you have to like the film and if you don't like the film you are categorized as alt-right... But the film doesn't seem exceedingly political at all? People are wrapping their identities up in it, and the identities of people who don't feel the same way are being tied to the identities of their enemies regardless of if they actually share those political identities. I'm just seeing blue check mark after blue check mark and article after article essentially degrading people who don't like the movie, often from very disparate points of view. Like articles saying Star Wars is finally for adults and that's why the mouth breathing manchildren can't handle it, followed by another (shared by the same person) that Star Wars was always for children and you shouldn't complain about there being too many jokes. The fandom and press coverage both positive and negative has just been really toxic and seemingly built on otherizing someone who didn't like the movie (or otherizing someone who did)
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Dec 21, 2017 18:18
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Al Borland Corp. posted:Just scoping out the reactions online there's this weird thing where if you're liberal or woke you have to like the film and if you don't like the film you are categorized as alt-right... But the film doesn't seem exceedingly political at all? People are wrapping their identities up in it, and the identities of people who don't feel the same way are being tied to the identities of their enemies regardless of if they actually share those political identities. It's also funny as hell to demand people like it.
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Dec 21, 2017 18:19
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Al Borland Corp. posted:The fandom and press coverage both positive and negative has just been really toxic and seemingly built on otherizing someone who didn't like the movie (or otherizing someone who did) Welcome to 2017, enjoy your stay.
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Dec 21, 2017 18:21
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Al Borland Corp. posted:Just scoping out the reactions online there's this weird thing where if you're liberal or woke you have to like the film and if you don't like the film you are categorized as alt-right... But the film doesn't seem exceedingly political at all? People are wrapping their identities up in it, and the identities of people who don't feel the same way are being tied to the identities of their enemies regardless of if they actually share those political identities. This probably comes from the fact that the same people who got all riled up over women and black people showing up in TFA did the same thing again for TLJ with the same results. I don't know why people think its worth devoting any attention to them at all, I guess it generates easy attention or something. There are plenty of legitimate criticisms of TLJ just as there were with TFA, but stuff like "why is the white guy evil" is clearly worthless but here we are paying attention to it anyway.
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Dec 21, 2017 18:24
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Serf posted:This probably comes from the fact that the same people who got all riled up over women and black people showing up in TFA did the same thing again for TLJ with the same results. I don't know why people think its worth devoting any attention to them at all, I guess it generates easy attention or something. There are plenty of legitimate criticisms of TLJ just as there were with TFA, but stuff like "why is the white guy evil" is clearly worthless but here we are paying attention to it anyway. When enough people dedicate themselves to hanging on to bad takes (especially in the case of Rotten Tomatoes and those using bots to enforce those takes), it undermines genuine criticism about the movie, and makes it seem less OK to dislike the movie or certain parts of it than it actually is. For the record, I thought it was right on the line between average and good, with a main plot I loved to death and two subplots that would have improved the movie further with their complete absence.
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Dec 21, 2017 18:26
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Al Borland Corp. posted:Just scoping out the reactions online there's this weird thing where if you're liberal or woke you have to like the film and if you don't like the film you are categorized as alt-right... But the film doesn't seem exceedingly political at all? People are wrapping their identities up in it, and the identities of people who don't feel the same way are being tied to the identities of their enemies regardless of if they actually share those political identities. You are describing somethingawful CineD Star Wars thread
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Dec 21, 2017 18:26
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Am I a "sequel lover" if I thought Force Awakens was garbage, despite its charming characters, and Last Jedi was incredible, with everything bad about it being traced back to Force Awakens? Because I don't get the impression that I've got a particularly rare combination of opinions there. Liking the iconoclasm of TLJ wouldn't suggest the type of person who would appreciate all the shallow symbol worship that defined TFA. A film examining failure, where everyone, especially your beloved childhood heroes, fail in frustrating and gut wrenching ways... is not going to be a crowd pleaser. But it is a fantastic direction to take a series like this. Going from the simple fairy tale arc of the original trilogy to this equally simple but fundamentally more challenging story of failure and loss is a really incredible contrast. I had no idea I'd be seeing something this compelling when I went into the theater.
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Dec 21, 2017 18:34
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It seems like maybe Disney needs to give all of these things a bit longer to cook. The Force Awakens sets up the world for the next 10+ years of movies, but what it lays down is kind of poorly defined and doesn't really make a whole lot of sense, maybe because of Disney's timetable. Then The Last Jedi does the best it can with that but is a bit messy and maybe could have used a bit more time to refine the story. The quicker Disney tries to push these out, the problems and shortcuts are going to have a cascading effect. Plus you've got all these extensive reshoots for Solo, and yet they're still pushing it out in May. Why?
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Dec 21, 2017 18:41
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Al Borland Corp. posted:The fandom and press coverage both positive and negative has just been really toxic and seemingly built on otherizing someone who didn't like the movie (or otherizing someone who did)
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Dec 21, 2017 18:42
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deepshock posted:When enough people dedicate themselves to hanging on to bad takes (especially in the case of Rotten Tomatoes and those using bots to enforce those takes), it undermines genuine criticism about the movie, and makes it seem less OK to dislike the movie or certain parts of it than it actually is. The only thing you can really do is state your opinion and discuss the movie with people who will talk in good faith. I thought this movie was interesting and good, but also messy and overlong.
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Dec 21, 2017 18:43
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Al Borland Corp. posted:Just scoping out the reactions online there's this weird thing where if you're liberal or woke you have to like the film and if you don't like the film you are categorized as alt-right... But the film doesn't seem exceedingly political at all? People are wrapping their identities up in it, and the identities of people who don't feel the same way are being tied to the identities of their enemies regardless of if they actually share those political identities. That's also happening here. Check out the spoiler thread and the responses to anyone who maybe doesn't think the film fully supports a reading of Poe as a woman hating dumpster man that some folks are insisting. It's a tough environment to legitimately try to communicate and discuss things in at the moment
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Dec 21, 2017 18:44
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I like TLJ because it breaks new ground and supports the inference that prequel Jedi were deeply misguided. Here's a thought about Finn that maybe improves his part a bit: we know nothing about what Finn thinks, only what he does. He deserted the First Order in TFA because it appears to be a horrifying death sentence. He tries to desert what was left of the Resistance as it was for the same reason, and he might not have been wrong. Perhaps the Resistance of future films will not be a military or terrorist organization.
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Dec 21, 2017 18:47
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Waffles Inc. posted:That's also happening here. Check out the spoiler thread and the responses to anyone who maybe doesn't think the film fully supports a reading of Poe as a woman hating dumpster man that some folks are insisting. Haha what? Poe's biggest hero across two films is Leia. After the opening scene, everything he does in TLJ is due to his belief that Leia is the best leader of the Resistance. I've seen criticism from chuds saying that Poe is a cuck who seeks the approval of women by submitting to them. I'm feeling more and more confident that this will be the most divisive movie of the sequels.
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Dec 21, 2017 18:50
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Eiba posted:Liking the iconoclasm of TLJ wouldn't suggest the type of person who would appreciate all the shallow symbol worship that defined TFA. 5 of the 7 Star Wars films that feature Jedi are explicitly critical of them (episodes 4 and 7 being the exception). Old Luke and young Luke might as well be different characters for all they have in common. The new understanding of the force is literally the same as the old one, with now there being a tacked on, nonsense light side. Leia, Yoda, Han, Obiwan, Vader, the empire or the original rebels are not critically considered at all. That this film is iconoclastic is the weirdest meme.
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Dec 21, 2017 18:51
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Serf posted:Haha what? Poe's biggest hero across two films is Leia. After the opening scene, everything he does in TLJ is due to his belief that Leia is the best leader of the Resistance. I've seen criticism from chuds saying that Poe is a cuck who seeks the approval of women by submitting to them. I'm feeling more and more confident that this will be the most divisive movie of the sequels. The idea is that he doesn't immediately trust Holdo not because she won't tell him her ~~secret plan~~ but because she is a woman
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Dec 21, 2017 18:54
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Sinding Johansson posted:5 of the 7 Star Wars films that feature Jedi are explicitly critical of them (episodes 4 and 7 being the exception). It's only iconoclastic if you suddenly started paying attention now. Waffles Inc. posted:The idea is that he doesn't immediately trust Holdo not because she won't tell him her ~~secret plan~~ but because she is a woman Mutinying against a woman commander because you think she's betraying another woman commander that you idolize. Truly next-level misogyny.
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Dec 21, 2017 18:57
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Waffles Inc. posted:The idea is that he doesn't immediately trust Holdo not because she won't tell him her ~~secret plan~~ but because she is a woman Of course since that plot thread is resolved without any lingering conflict, the misogyny isn't even an innuendo. Poe is a misogynist because they disagree and Hildo wears a dress.
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Dec 21, 2017 18:57
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Sinding Johansson posted:Old Luke and young Luke might as well be different characters for all they have in common. Luke and Luke are the same character, but your hero wasn't who you mythologized him to be. Edit: And in any case, it's iconoclastic compared to icon-worshiping Force Awakens, which was my main point. There's a lot of good nuanced stuff in other Star Wars that this film is indeed building off of. Eiba fucked around with this message at 19:01 on Dec 21, 2017 |
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Dec 21, 2017 18:59
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The problem is there's no criticism of the fact Holdo wears a dress. What does that say about her other than that she's feminine? Leia wears a dress as a princess/senator in 4 but changes outfits sensibly as she becomes a rebel.
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Dec 21, 2017 19:00
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Waffles Inc. posted:That's also happening here. Check out the spoiler thread and the responses to anyone who maybe doesn't think the film fully supports a reading of Poe as a woman hating dumpster man that some folks are insisting. I seem to recall it was just Goldfish Stew going off on everybody, although they weren't alone in feeling a sexist vibe. I don't think it was coincidence that Poe blatantly ignored/disobeyed one woman and then led a mutiny against another. Plus, naturally assuming he'd be the one in charge after the bridge got torched. You could definitely read some anti-aristocratic vibes from it, too.
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Dec 21, 2017 19:01
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Sinding Johansson posted:The problem is there's no criticism of the fact Holdo wears a dress. What does that say about her other than that she's feminine? Leia wears a dress as a princess/senator in 4 but changes outfits sensibly as she becomes a rebel. The point is that Holdo isn't what Poe (and by extension, the audience) would expect a high ranking military commander to look like, the dress and the hair emphasize this. I mean for god's sake Poe literally says this out loud: quote:That's Admiral Holdo? Battle of Chyron Belt Admiral Holdo? He then goes on to try and her inform her about poo poo that he assumes she either doesn't know or understand: quote:Poe: With our current
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Dec 21, 2017 19:10
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Eiba posted:I think you've got all you need to understand it right here, but you're not letting yourself. Lukes development in a few words: 4: naive farm boy who wants to see the world. Seduced by Obiwan into fighting the Empire. 5: disillusioned with the rebels, meets Yoda who teaches him to detach himself from the world and ignore suffering. Rejects those teachings, confronts Vader and despairs that although he rejects Yoda and the rebels, he no longer has anything to believe in. 6: rejected the jedi teachings, fights for friends and family, then embraces pacifism. 7: is somehow the considered hero of the galaxy (instead of Lando and Wedge who are whitewashed) 8: Chronologically; has regressed into uncritically accepting the jedi teachings (implied), contemplates murdering his nephew and abandons his friends and family when things get tough. Communicates to Rey the same thoughts on the force as were communicated to him, with the addition of an incoherent light side, and the subtraction of all his development in 5 and 6 after leaving Yoda. Is spurned by Rey into confronting Kylo but accomplishes nothing. Dies.
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Dec 21, 2017 19:14
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aware of dog posted:The point is that Holdo isn't what Poe (and by extension, the audience) would expect a high ranking military commander to look like, the dress and the hair emphasize this. I mean for god's sake Poe literally says this out loud: Yeah obviously. What does her dress imply other than that she's a woman? Rey, Rose and Jyn never wear dresses. Iirc, Leia only wears a dress in 4 and 8. Padme sometime wore dresses and the ostentatiousness of them said a lot about her character. It keeps coming back to the dress because if it weren't for the dress then calling Poe misogynistic wouldn't make sense at all. The so called feminism of this film is completely uncritical. Sinding Johansson fucked around with this message at 19:22 on Dec 21, 2017 |
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Dec 21, 2017 19:19
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aware of dog posted:The point is that Holdo isn't what Poe (and by extension, the audience) would expect a high ranking military commander to look like, the dress and the hair emphasize this. I mean for god's sake Poe literally says this out loud: Poe da Moron
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Dec 21, 2017 19:20
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(Spoiler tags, y'all) The film doesn't support a misogynistic reading of poe fully because of his borderline worship of leia and that crewmembers agree with his distust of Holdo (including women). Plus, Poe very obviously doesn't dislike or distrust women. His "Battle of Chryon Belt Admiral Holdo? Not what I expected" is what a grunt would say to another about Lando in RotJ. What do you think the other pilots must have thought of Lando? Surely not, "here's this guy who has been tirelessly fighting for our freedoms, thank god it's him!". More likely it was, "...the businessman guy who ran a gas mine? ...what? Why shouldn't Wedge lead the attack?" Hell, even Han is surprised at Lando: "Well look at you, a general" His distrust rightfully comes from the fact that she appears to not actually have a plan--which she doesn't. Her plan is predicated on a non-existent piece of technology that she blindly puts her faith in. Poe and those who mutiny react rightly to someone who is coded in the Star Wars language for "rich and out of touch"; she echoes the passive senators from R1 and even more than that, the rich and out of touch folks of the Capital in the Hunger Games. As I said in the other thread, it would be absolutely no different had Leia said that this guy was the new commander 
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Dec 21, 2017 19:20
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aware of dog posted:The point is that Holdo isn't what Poe (and by extension, the audience) would expect a high ranking military commander to look like, the dress and the hair emphasize this. I mean for god's sake Poe literally says this out loud: Well yeah because she's not Leia.
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Dec 21, 2017 19:20
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Didn't mon mothma wear a dress?
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Dec 21, 2017 19:27
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Yeah she did
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Dec 21, 2017 19:29
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Star Wars episode 8 is 'progressive' only in that the male leads are all short and this goes uncommented.
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Dec 21, 2017 19:32
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