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Assume that moderate global warming is locked in now no matter what we do. It seems like human nature and the way our society is structured is just a big a problem as the warming itself. Theoretically, we could start a decades long slow evacuation of the smaller coastal towns, harden and build seawalls around the big coastal cities and ports, start switching over to nuclear power, encourage more local agriculture and drought resistant crops, (for example in the American south where I am, buy local tunip greens instead of avacodos and bananas from far away), move toward more chicken and insect protein, and start an intiative to educate women worldwide, raising standards and lowering birthrates. Humanity getting its poo poo together and doing all of this is possible, and we could enjoy a reasonable standard of living even in a moderate warming situation. We just are not going to. We arn't unified enough and don't have the will. Suppose that you went into space and found an exo planet that resembled earth in a moderate warming situation. Bad storms on the coasts. Occasional severe droughts, limited ocean life resources. Everything else being equal, it would still be a great planet to settle. We could easily live in such a place. It would just require a different way of organizing our society and we are not going to change until it's too late to try.
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Dec 21, 2017 22:42
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Bishounen Bonanza posted:Assume that moderate global warming is locked in now no matter what we do. It seems like human nature and the way our society is structured is just a big a problem as the warming itself. Theoretically, we could start a decades long slow evacuation of the smaller coastal towns, harden and build seawalls around the big coastal cities and ports, start switching over to nuclear power, encourage more local agriculture and drought resistant crops, (for example in the American south where I am, buy local tunip greens instead of avacodos and bananas from far away), move toward more chicken and insect protein, and start an intiative to educate women worldwide, raising standards and lowering birthrates.  ). the most pressing issue right now is what to do with those refugees and where to put them, because they're not going away
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Dec 22, 2017 00:38
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It's sometimes difficult to imagine the impact catastrophic climate change given the scale of the problem. It's fine to say we'll evacuate coastal areas in advance and build infrastructure like sea walls where possible, but what will that process really look like? Fortunately the Indonesian capital Jakarta is giving us a sneak peek due to a combination of rising sea levels and the city sinking fast due to aquifer depletion. The city is essentially fast-forwarding 50 years ahead in terms of climate change and the future looks extremely messy, as this excellent New York Times article describes. The whole article is worth reading but here are some highlights:Jakarta Is Sinking So Fast, It Could End Up Underwater posted:With climate change, the Java Sea is rising and weather here is becoming more extreme. Earlier this month another freakish storm briefly turned Jakarta’s streets into rivers and brought this vast area of nearly 30 million residents to a virtual halt. It's a giant collective action problem where individual residents need well water to live but collectively they're destroying the city. Even with the city literally sinking into the sea the municipal govt is unable to reign in developers or private water companies contributing to the problem. Attempts to build infrastructure are piecemeal and in many cases actively resisted, as are evictions/resettlements. The crisis aggravates existing religious and racial tensions leading to populist reactionaries taking over (this sounds familiar). I'm not an expert but it's hard to see how Jakarta won't generate tens of millions of refugees in the near future following one bad storm. edit: MiddleOne posted:It's the competitive advantage that makes it zero-sum. The economics losses you make for adopting CCS will appear as gains for another economy that didn't adopt through the wonders of international markets and competition. Theoretically, by increasing the marginal cost of production you're effectively decreasing your own countries production. In an open economy that means imports from a country with a non-CCS burdened cost of production will replace your domestic production. CCS is also unique from an economic perspective for having no net benefits from wholesale adaption. Everyone just gets to enjoy slightly more expensive coal energy with no comparative gains or losses for anyone. Just saw this, thanks for breaking it down for my dumb brain. Nocturtle fucked around with this message at 03:42 on Dec 22, 2017 |
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Dec 22, 2017 02:08
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There's one practical CCS solution: Increase net biomass as much as possible. Solving climate change is a two step process. Step 1 is to stop putting more carbon into the air. Step 2 is to do the azolla event but in fifty years. If we pull it off the planet will be a beautiful place. Now go water your plants.
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Dec 22, 2017 07:52
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AGU 2017 had a panel on flood risk that had some interesting takeaways: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4Vpcn9ySuk 1m55s: The 100 year floodplain drawn by FEMA has 13 million homes in it. Their calculated floodplain has 40 million homes in it for more than a 3x difference. A major cause of the difference are floodplains not being calculated for smaller streams and tributaries in the FEMA maps. 18m50s: By 2050 intensification of extreme sea level events can render a large part of the tropics exposed annually to the present-day 100-year event.
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Dec 22, 2017 07:56
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Bishounen Bonanza posted:move toward more chicken and insect protein You could probably switch the turkey hot dogs I sometimes eat to insect-based hot dogs and I wouldn't notice. Or... have they already?
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Dec 22, 2017 19:09
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I'm about 190% in favor of bug protein already. Pretty sure it wouldn't be all that hard to disguise with dye or a little bit of grain for texture if it doesn't already look palatable. Actually, I'm going to entertain a rare, fleeting moment of slight optimism here, would it be possible to create a ground insect protein product that has roughly the flavor and texture of beef? Because if you could do that for cheap that might actually have a small positive impact on carbon emissions in the US. I mean, for gently caress's sake, some fast-food places already use corn in their beef mixture, if you can make a cheap I Can't Believe It's Not Beef you would be crowned king of the supply chain. I'm going to assume the answer is 'no', of course, or it would have already happened. And also it would probably not have as much effect as I would hope. I'm sorry, I'm still trying to come to grips with 'our species is too lazy to prevent hundreds of millions of deaths from our own industry, oh and also just maybe complete biosphere collapse and our own eventual extinction, who knows'. Shady Amish Terror fucked around with this message at 15:51 on Dec 23, 2017 |
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Dec 23, 2017 15:47
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To be honest, I think the chief issue more than its origin, is it's cost. If you can produce a paddy that is cheaper than ground beef, it will probably be a success. That said, the big issue is that our subsidies and infrastructure is designed to produce beef as cheaply as possible. If even a fraction of those subsidies went to insect protein (I know... I know...) it probably would find a market. Granted, that also goes back to the fact that the political system in the US is pretty much hosed.
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Dec 23, 2017 16:20
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honestly we can feed our population just fine on chicken and fish if we farm them efficiently, insects are mostly just an option for places so ecologically hosed that chickens and fish can't be raised there anymore. large herbivores are the problem, both because of the methane and because raising them safely requires huge amounts of woodland to be converted to grassland - this is going to be its own solution in time, as those deforested areas are now also the first to be rendered unusable by drought, erosion, salinity and general exhaustion. i foresee that cows and sheep will dwindle in numbers, not because of any coordinated pressure or legislation but just because ranching is going to become unfeasible as temperature and rainfall fluctuations fall outside the current range and groundwater reserves are squeezed. we should be replacing traditional open ranches right now with more intensive modern systems that hold a smaller, more diverse population of stock in safe and sustainable conditions; sadly farmers are the most loving stubborn and pig-headed people on the planet, and they will continue to insist that their way is the best way right up until the moment they're literally starved off their land
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Dec 23, 2017 21:06
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To be fair, that's an awfully broad brush to paint farmers with. I lived in Kentucky as the tobacco trade was starting to dry up, and many farms transitioned to food or medical crops without much trouble. Some farmers are shitheads, same as with any group of people, but poor land use from the US obsession with beef is going to continue until you can ween US culture off of burgers, or instate a government that isn't beholden to populist whims and is able to make and enforce regulations about better land use for the benefit of future generations so...not holding my breath right now. I am definitely starting to feel these days that being perpetually poor, depressed, and sick makes me more a part of the problem than the solution, because there just isn't much I feel like I can contribute, personally. You know, other than wasting resources by virtue of existing. 
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Dec 23, 2017 21:26
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at the moment we're really bad at artificially raising animals outside of a select few species. we can do sheep, cows, pigs and chickens; that's about it. other species - fish, seafood, even less common livestock like goats or nutria - industrial farmers struggle with, because either the nature of the animal makes them hard to raise in an artificial environment, or the environment itself has to be so carefully engineered that we haven't worked out how to reproduce it yet and are stuck relying on natural systems. farmed shellfish supports a surprising amount of people, but it completely relies on having access to a clean and healthy ocean because we really struggle to simulate a tidal environment in a built space. if the ocean gets hosed up, we can no longer farm shellfish. a lot of fish (and seaweed) farms have the same problem. sheep and cows are easy to raise under the current system because you just have to fill a big open field with good pasture, fence them in and basically leave them to their own devices* - but we're reaching the point where that's no longer going to be an option, and the animals that are really good foragers and can live in the desert and in wooded areas, like goats and deer, are unpopular on farms because they are smarter than us and they laugh at the notion of fences. we need more research on alternative farming methods and managing difficult species, because now we have a system where almost every farm is a huge monoculture of a single species, usually all the same breed, usually all closely related genetically on top of that, and any disaster that kills one animal is probably going to kill them all *i know it's more complex than this
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Dec 23, 2017 21:26
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Shady Amish Terror posted:I am definitely starting to feel these days that being perpetually poor, depressed, and sick makes me more a part of the problem than the solution, because there just isn't much I feel like I can contribute, personally. You know, other than wasting resources by virtue of existing.  it's ok, just try to talk some sense into people where you can
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Dec 23, 2017 21:27
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but yeah sorry i shouldn't tar all farmers worldwide with the same brush! my personal experience is limited to new south wales wheat, beef and cotton farmers - and they are hopeless lol. of course the problem here is that wheat, beef and cotton are still the most profitable things to farm, goats and saltbush might be more sustainable but it doesn't matter if they can't sell the product - this won't be the case in ten years, but as we've established repeatedly itt, people in general cannot comprehend the concept of a future where things are different to how they are now
australiar fucked around with this message at 21:47 on Dec 23, 2017 |
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Dec 23, 2017 21:44
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Ardennes posted:To be honest, I think the chief issue more than its origin, is it's cost. If you can produce a paddy that is cheaper than ground beef, it will probably be a success. Counterpoint: https://twitter.com/MattOswaltVA/status/903834627768324096/photo/1
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Dec 23, 2017 22:25
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Shady Amish Terror posted:I am definitely starting to feel these days that being perpetually poor, depressed, and sick makes me more a part of the problem than the solution, because there just isn't much I feel like I can contribute, personally. You know, other than wasting resources by virtue of existing. I think most of us that understand the problem feel we either can't or aren't doing enough. Grappling with the realization that our mere existence is causing harm is part of the pathology of modern life.
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Dec 23, 2017 23:37
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Conspiratiorist posted:Counterpoint: Holy gently caress that stuff is cheap in the states. Most of it is double the price in Canada and thus a budgetary non-starter for most of us (albeit, so is meat at this point). I eat a lot of lentils.
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Dec 23, 2017 23:42
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my parents and random family have always told me about african famines that would hit in their country growing up and all the suffering surrounding it and its my biggest fear in life as a second generation immigrant living in NA to experience this kind of actual extreme hardship but it only seems to be getting worse around the world
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Dec 24, 2017 00:00
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There's probably a market for insect protein but what you really want is people to switch to chicken, pork, etc., stuff that people already eat that is relatively low-impact. It's really cattle that are the problem, both because they burp methane and because they require huge pasture ranges.
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Dec 24, 2017 00:24
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every time i eat delicious brisket i think of this thread then i order some more
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Dec 24, 2017 01:01
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enraged_camel posted:every time i eat delicious brisket i think of this thread you're still allowed to eat pulled pork in climate hellworld though
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Dec 24, 2017 01:16
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enraged_camel posted:every time i eat delicious brisket i think of this thread It's weird how the stereotype is always vegetarians who are pushy and always talking about vegitables but it is literally impossible for any internet message board to even mention eating less meat without people flooding in to post the same three super original "triggered yet libs?" posts about how much they are le eating le bacon right now and you can't stop them.
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Dec 24, 2017 01:23
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About the only way to take enough beef out of the food-chain (within an effective timeframe) would be through a virus engineered and released to kill off all cattle.
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Dec 24, 2017 01:37
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The thing about bug protein is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeAJtiLDb-8
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Dec 24, 2017 01:38
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Conspiratiorist posted:Counterpoint: I have yet to eat a veggie burger that tastes even remotely like the real thing. Just covering the patty in artificial smoke flavor doesn't fool anyone. There's a little vegan restaurant in downtown KC that offers dried, shredded, and spiced jackfruit as a meat substitute, cheese made from cashew cream, and a mayo/sauce substitute that I think involved cucumber. I quite liked their sandwiches, but never for a second thought "this tastes just like beef/chicken/fish" or whatever meat their menu claimed a given sandwich was a substitute for. If someone's primary objection to veggie "meats" is "I want it to taste like the thing it's supposed to replace", they still have a valid point. However, there are vat-grown meats that are still working on becoming commercially viable. Hopefully, we'll see those get subsidized and start coming to market within a few years. Maybe we should start stigmatizing vat meats as something only poor people would eat, so anyone who primarily votes to spite the poor/minorities will support initiatives to make it more affordable than "regular" meat.
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Dec 24, 2017 01:38
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Shady Amish Terror posted:To be fair, that's an awfully broad brush to paint farmers with. I lived in Kentucky as the tobacco trade was starting to dry up, and many farms transitioned to food or medical crops without much trouble. Yeah I don't think that's a good description of American farmers at all. There's been a lot of innovation. People are starting to get away from the standard corn-soybeans rotation through the introduction of an additional rotational step of cover crops. There's been interest in double-cropping and, of course, a small but significant organic market. But what's really interesting, and almost totally unknown is that US farms are increasingly switching to no-till farming, which drastically reduces the the negative consequences of intensive farming: soil erosion, loss of organic matter, and nutrient depletion. Some 40% of US farms use no-till to at least some extent, and its use is growing exponentially. I don't expect there'll be a general awareness until it's ubiquitous, if ever, but it's a huge change from how farming has been done traditionally.
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Dec 24, 2017 01:39
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Hello Sailor posted:I have yet to eat a veggie burger that tastes even remotely like the real thing. Just covering the patty in artificial smoke flavor doesn't fool anyone. It feels unfortunate so many things got ghettoized as being "meat substitute". Like black bean burgers are just good. They should be a thing anyone buys and eats, but they generally are marketed as being for people that won't eat a "real" burger. And a lot of them are sold in a dull and plain way. Like menus don't normally have double bacon cheese black bean burgers. SInce the assumption is that the black bean burger is for healthy vegans. Like so many potentially good foods limited themselves by falling into "only for people that don't eat meat" instead of "anyone can eat this, including people that don't eat meat". Likewise a lot of things played up the healthy side in a way that limited their use for other things. Like there is little high calorie soy junk food 'meat' that people might like if they weren't looking for something that is more environmentally first and not caring as much about health aspects at that time.
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Dec 24, 2017 02:13
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Vat meat won't overtake animal meat for decades if ever. Animals are cheaper than biochemists.
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Dec 24, 2017 02:48
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:black bean burgers are just good. They should be a thing anyone buys and eats.
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Dec 24, 2017 02:49
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Arglebargle III posted:Vat meat won't overtake animal meat for decades if ever. Animals are cheaper than biochemists. it'll disrupt from the consumer up, can't wait for my brisket-printer
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Dec 24, 2017 02:51
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Arglebargle III posted:Vat meat won't overtake animal meat for decades if ever. Animals are cheaper than biochemists. Lard went from being a perfectly normal food everyone ate to a thing everyone treats as being rancid poison that someone would fear to even eat on a dare because proctor and gamble ran a super successful ad campaign treating it like dirty filth compared to the scientific miracle that is crisco that is pure and good and made of science. Like the idea lard is tainted or somehow unwholesome beyond any other random sort of shortening is a belief that is now passed from parent to child it's so deeply ingrained due to a really successful radio ad campaign. Same with the way people got turned on organ meat to only eating more expensive meats and being out right terrified of the organ stuff. You gotta have a product people like but if you do the opening is there to convince people your stuff is the good and clean and safe thing and the other stuff is filth that will poison and kill you. Organ meat is a totally normal thing to eat in plenty of places, but marketing and culture makes it a thing many people won't even dare to try. Lard is just another fat exactly as healthy or unhealthy as any other fat but if you make a pie crust with lard you might as well tell people you made it out of maggots. People can very easily get extremely soured on the concepts of meat for a "cleaner" and more "wholesome" alternative.
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Dec 24, 2017 03:05
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*leans into mic* marketing is not the problem
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Dec 24, 2017 04:14
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Owlofcreamcheese posted:It's weird how the stereotype is always vegetarians who are pushy and always talking about vegitables but it is literally impossible for any internet message board to even mention eating less meat without people flooding in to post the same three super original "triggered yet libs?" posts about how much they are le eating le bacon right now and you can't stop them. It's weird how most of the suggested "solutions" to climate change involve individual-level behavior changes like "eat less meat!" or "start biking everywhere!" or "don't have kids!" At this stage it's pretty obvious that no such solution will work, because of the simple reality of tragedy of the commons and game theory. Basically my individual sacrifices by themselves virtually don't matter, unless a substantial percentage of the population also changes its behavior, and that is never going to happen short of government-level action, or some sort of large-scale disaster such as a global-level mad cow disease that scares people away from red meat for a long time.
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Dec 24, 2017 04:24
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enraged_camel posted:At this stage it's pretty obvious that no such solution will work, because of the simple reality of tragedy of the commons and game theory. lmao look at this little babby idiot coming up with any excuse he can. 30% of our country got magically convinced that Russia is our friend not our enemy and he can't picture how mass individual beliefs can change.
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Dec 24, 2017 04:26
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Notorious R.I.M. posted:lmao look at this little babby idiot coming up with any excuse he can. I don't need an excuse, as my conscience is clear. It's asinine to ask individuals to make optional sacrifices for an imminent global-scale problem.
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Dec 24, 2017 04:29
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enraged_camel posted:I don't need an excuse, as my conscience is clear. It's asinine to ask individuals to make optional sacrifices for an imminent global-scale problem. what amazing middle class white non-voter logic you have
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Dec 24, 2017 04:34
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enraged_camel posted:I don't need an excuse, as my conscience is clear. It's asinine to ask individuals to make optional sacrifices for an imminent global-scale problem. Do it or gently caress you.
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Dec 24, 2017 04:45
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Notorious R.I.M. posted:what amazing middle class white non-voter logic you have You make a lot of incorrect assumptions about me in a single sentence. Incredible. 
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Dec 24, 2017 04:52
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enraged_camel posted:You make a lot of incorrect assumptions about me in a single sentence. Incredible. It's not an assumption about who you are. It's about the kind of logic you're using to make an excuse.
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Dec 24, 2017 04:53
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Arglebargle III posted:*leans into mic* marketing is not the problem Marketing is the reason white people in england can eat kidneys apparently just fine but white people in the US can only eat muscle meat and eating kidneys might as well be asking someone to eat a cow pie. There is plenty of examples of people being just fine only eating a more expensive thing and not eating a less expensive thing because the people selling the more expensive thing do a good job convincing everyone the cheaper thing is scary and bad.
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Dec 24, 2017 04:59
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Conspiratiorist posted:Counterpoint: As a vegan, I avoid that poo poo as much as possible. Soy Isolate based over processed crap. Easier just to eat veggies, brown rice, quinoa, beans, tortillas, decent breadetc. So I don't blame anyone for staying away from it. I tried Tofurkey at an event recently. Really crap. (ok, the Tofu is fine ... but that's an acquired taste)
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Dec 24, 2017 07:30
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