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Tesseraction posted:I'm assuming their issue is the algorithm for proportional representation... but given that Catalonia uses PR with the d'Hondt method it's basically the most optimal form of PR? Having looked into it a bit further, the 4 constituencies seem to a bigger issue, since they are unrepresentative explicitly and by design. Catalonian Autonomy Statute posted:2. The constituencies for the elections shall be the four provinces of Barcelona, Girona, Lleida and Tarragona. The Parliament of Catalonia shall comprise 135 members, of whom the Barcelona constituency shall elect one per 50,000 inhabitants, up to a maximum of 85 members. The constituencies of Girona, Lleida and Tarragona shall elect a minimum of six members plus one per 40,000 inhabitants, and shall be assigned 17, 15 and 18 members respectively. These numbers are also unchanged since 1979, so that is likely to skew the result even further. 75% of voters today live in the Barcelona constituency, yet they only get 63% of all seats.
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Dec 23, 2017 05:07
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Tesseraction posted:I'm assuming their issue is the algorithm for proportional representation... but given that Catalonia uses PR with the d'Hondt method it's basically the most optimal form of PR? It's split into 4 districts assigned a fixed number of seats decided by PR internally, so Barcelona is underweighted
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Dec 23, 2017 05:35
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beer_war posted:Having looked into it a bit further, the 4 constituencies seem to a bigger issue, since they are unrepresentative explicitly and by design. MUH
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Dec 23, 2017 18:33
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I CANNOT EJACULATE WITHOUT SEEING NATIVE AMERICANS BRUTALISED!
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Merry Christmas and/or other holiday to everyone and peace on earth. Maybe nice things will happen in 2018.
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Dec 23, 2017 23:02
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beer_war posted:Having looked into it a bit further, the 4 constituencies seem to a bigger issue, since they are unrepresentative explicitly and by design. That certainly seems unfair, a similar overweighting of rural populations is why we have an frictionless spherical orange cow in the white house across the pond.
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Dec 24, 2017 01:12
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Merry Christmas / Happy holidays (whichever you prefer), Europol!
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Dec 25, 2017 07:22
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Pluskut Tukker posted:Europol! 
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Dec 25, 2017 10:06
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Tesseraction posted:Isn't it interesting how often brutal austerity leads to nationalist independence movements. If only there was some kind of historical precedent to serve as a warning as to the dangers of fuelling this, one recently even... *gaze slowly slides over 1991 Yugoslavia* Except that Yugoslavia wasn't a case of brutal austerity leading to nationalist independence movements?
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Dec 25, 2017 11:24
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Given the earlier chat about the motives behind Brexit and the political dynamics within the Conservative Party, I should probably cross-post this again:Darth Walrus posted:Righty-ho.
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Dec 25, 2017 11:44
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Tesseraction posted:That certainly seems unfair, a similar overweighting of rural populations is why we have an frictionless spherical orange cow in the white house across the pond. Yeah. I understand the reasoning behind a system trying to guarantee all regions are somewhat represented. But the system has proven to be so imbalanced in practice that small parties/regions have the key to governance or to passing certain important reforms, giving them way more political power than what they should have proportionately. It's a Spain-wide problem. Super86 fucked around with this message at 12:13 on Dec 25, 2017 |
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Dec 25, 2017 12:10
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Doctor Malaver posted:Except that Yugoslavia wasn't a case of brutal austerity leading to nationalist independence movements? It was moreso a case of accumulated national debt over almost half a century and inflation going through the goddamned roof (funny joke from the times: "They said money would have no value in communism - we're not far off from it!"), coupled with Tito croaking without a workable plan for who comes after in what was still, ostensibly, his dictatorship rule leading to revival of said ethnic tensions. So yea...I guess the point is, no one single thing is usually responsible to cases of bloodshed nowadays, but rather a combo of lovely factors. And a merry christmas to you all too! CrazyLoon fucked around with this message at 16:29 on Dec 25, 2017 |
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Dec 25, 2017 16:23
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Tabarnak! Here comes Tabarnian separatism! https://www.change.org/p/habitantes-de-barcelona-autonomia-para-tabarnia quote:TABARNIA. INICIATIVA PARA LA NUEVA COMUNIDAD AUTONOMÍA.  Basically, Barcelona and Tarragona separating from Catalonia so as to remain in Spain.
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Dec 25, 2017 23:50
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Cat Mattress posted:Tabarnak! Here comes Tabarnian separatism! europe of the regions
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Dec 26, 2017 00:32
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Layers upon layers
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Dec 26, 2017 01:14
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Kurtofan posted:Layers upon layers my country for an arc gis license
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Dec 26, 2017 10:14
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Barcelona having a referendum on leaving Catalonia would be pretty hilarious. Surely the pro-independence Catalonians couldn't object to that act of reasonable self determination? It might impact the viability of any potential Catalonia a tad, mind you.
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Dec 26, 2017 13:35
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Cat Mattress posted:Tabarnak! Here comes Tabarnian separatism! I like it... The Catalonian independence supporters can't reasonably oppose it, but neither would independent Catalonia be particularly feasible in Barcelona's absence.
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Dec 27, 2017 02:41
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PT6A posted:I like it... The Catalonian independence supporters can't reasonably oppose it, but neither would independent Catalonia be particularly feasible in Barcelona's absence. I've already seen the argument that catalonia cannot be divided unlike spain .It's a true genius troll
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Dec 27, 2017 02:46
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hump day bitches! posted:I've already seen the argument that catalonia cannot be divided unlike spain .It's a true genius troll The way the West arbitrarily decided the Serb dominated areas in northern Kosovo had no right to remain part of Serbia because the line on a map said they were part of Kosovo (despite the lines on the map showing Kosovo was part of Serbia until the intervention) shows that there is at least some precedent for that, though obviously Spain isn't as widely loathed as Serbia under Milosevic was.
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Dec 27, 2017 04:56
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PT6A posted:I like it... The Catalonian independence supporters can't reasonably oppose it, but neither would independent Catalonia be particularly feasible in Barcelona's absence. Have you seen many elections that work that way? Would you argue for Hillary being made president of those states that voted for her only, or for Corbyn being made Prime Minister for those parts of the UK that voted Labour?
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Dec 27, 2017 11:50
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YF-23 posted:Have you seen many elections that work that way? Would you argue for Hillary being made president of those states that voted for her only, or for Corbyn being made Prime Minister for those parts of the UK that voted Labour? I mean, by this logic Catalonia should fall in line with Spain, so it's not a good line of rebuttal for the separatists either.
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Dec 27, 2017 12:14
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PT6A posted:I like it... The Catalonian independence supporters can't reasonably oppose it, but neither would independent Catalonia be particularly feasible in Barcelona's absence. Yes they can oppose it, because the anti-independence block didn't get more than 50% of the votes (if you remove one of the parties that didn't want to be independent, because of reasons), according to a pro independence newspaper. This is completely different to the pro independence parties getting less than 50% of the votes in Catalonia, of course.
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Dec 27, 2017 12:19
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Fat Samurai posted:Yes they can oppose it, because the anti-independence block didn't get more than 50% of the votes (if you remove one of the parties that didn't want to be independent, because of reasons), according to a pro independence newspaper. Well, I guess now Catalonia has to send in the police to beat up people in Barcelona! Let's see how this goes.
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Dec 27, 2017 12:26
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Deltasquid posted:I mean, by this logic Catalonia should fall in line with Spain, so it's not a good line of rebuttal for the separatists either. It wasn't a Spanish election...?
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Dec 27, 2017 12:42
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Sinteres posted:The way the West arbitrarily decided the Serb dominated areas in northern Kosovo had no right to remain part of Serbia because the line on a map said they were part of Kosovo (despite the lines on the map showing Kosovo was part of Serbia until the intervention) shows that there is at least some precedent for that, though obviously Spain isn't as widely loathed as Serbia under Milosevic was. Yeah. But you're forgetting all that crap about mass murders and ethnic cleansing. Small details.
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Dec 27, 2017 13:00
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YF-23 posted:Have you seen many elections that work that way? Would you argue for Hillary being made president of those states that voted for her only, or for Corbyn being made Prime Minister for those parts of the UK that voted Labour? The reasoning is different. The pro-independence want to secede from Spain. But they repeatedly said they won't accept anybody seceding from them in turn. They usually omit the "because..." part that should follow.
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Dec 27, 2017 13:05
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All national borders are pretty arbitrary constructs, so I don't see why separatist movements should be held to a higher standard than anybody else here.
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Dec 27, 2017 13:36
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Cat Mattress posted:Tabarnak! Here comes Tabarnian separatism! Heh, that was proposed by a group called "Barcelona is not Catalonia" back in 2015, and no one paid it any attention. Great comedy option, not really feasible though.
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Dec 27, 2017 14:15
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YF-23 posted:It wasn't a Spanish election...? So your answer would be different if Barcelona held a new referendum to remain with Spain in case Catalonia decides to secede? I see your point but I don't know how this is markedly different from asking them to restate their opinion on the matter, unless there is a large section of people living in Barcelona who want to remain in Spain on the condition that the rest of Catalonia does as well.
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Dec 27, 2017 14:24
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Super86 posted:Yeah. But you're forgetting all that crap about mass murders and ethnic cleansing. Small details. There were plenty of reprisal killings against Serbs in northern Kosovo after the war, and the KLA didn't exactly have clean hands before the war either. The areas populated by Serbs in northern Kosovo should clearly have been allowed to remain part of Serbia.
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Dec 27, 2017 15:54
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Sinteres posted:There were plenty of reprisal killings against Serbs in northern Kosovo after the war, and the KLA didn't exactly have clean hands before the war either. The areas populated by Serbs in northern Kosovo should clearly have been allowed to remain part of Serbia. Precisely. What I mean is that it's a totally different case. You can't take lessons from that event and apply them here completely out of context.
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Dec 27, 2017 16:51
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Deltasquid posted:So your answer would be different if Barcelona held a new referendum to remain with Spain in case Catalonia decides to secede? I see your point but I don't know how this is markedly different from asking them to restate their opinion on the matter, unless there is a large section of people living in Barcelona who want to remain in Spain on the condition that the rest of Catalonia does as well. There's a few reasons as to why I find the argument I was replying to misleading., but it basically boils down to one thing: Barcelona etc. voted to remain part of Spain, not to secede from Catalonia. Those two questions are extremely relevant to each other, but they're not the same as each other, and an answer to one should not be treated as an answer to the other. You cannot just extrapolate from one to the other, and no-one went into the referendum or the elections with the premise that parts of Catalonia that vote for remaining part of Spain would do so in case separatism won the overall vote.
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Dec 27, 2017 16:55
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YF-23 posted:There's a few reasons as to why I find the argument I was replying to misleading., but it basically boils down to one thing: Barcelona etc. voted to remain part of Spain, not to secede from Catalonia. Those two questions are extremely relevant to each other, but they're not the same as each other, and an answer to one should not be treated as an answer to the other. You cannot just extrapolate from one to the other, and no-one went into the referendum or the elections with the premise that parts of Catalonia that vote for remaining part of Spain would do so in case separatism won the overall vote. The Tabarnia thing is not a serious secession movement, it's a Twitter troll thought experiment designed to show how easily the arguments of the Catalan separatists can be turned on their head and used against the separatists, and how the separatists are really arguing in bad faith (the separatists are no less guilty than anyone else of putting their own interpretation on people's votes and nonvotes). Of course these days memes have a disturbing tendency to become real but at this point it should not be taken that seriously.
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Dec 27, 2017 18:01
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While I don't think you could derive support for a hypothetical independent Tabarnia from the distribution of votes in the Catalonian independence referendum, I see no reason why, again hypothetically, they couldn't hold a separate referendum. We've already established that legality according to the laws of the country from which independence is being sought is not a necessary condition for supposedly valid referenda, by the logic of Catalonian separatists themselves.
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Dec 27, 2017 18:56
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I haven’t seen an official statement from the Catalan separatists saying that Barcelona shouldn’t have the right to hold an independence referendum after Catalonia gains its independence so I am not sure who is even being trolled here.
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Dec 27, 2017 19:23
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If you're going to fracture the country, might as well go for maximum Balkanisation to show how absurd the whole thing is. Anything that gets us closer to the ideal end state (heh) of having one state per person.
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Dec 27, 2017 19:35
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Actually, according to the Constitution, it's legal for one or more provinces to separate from their original autonomous region and create a new one, as long as they remain part of Spain, so it's far easier to do that with the backing of the spanish government than gaining actual independence. It's all wishful thinking and trolling of course, but it would be pretty amusing. Angry Lobster fucked around with this message at 19:56 on Dec 27, 2017 |
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Dec 27, 2017 19:52
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A similar situation is discussed in Canada every time Quebec throws an independence fit. Catalonian separatists might argue along the same lines against Tabarnia's split.
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Dec 27, 2017 21:14
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blowfish posted:If you're going to fracture the country, might as well go for maximum Balkanisation to show how absurd the whole thing is. Anything that gets us closer to the ideal end state (heh) of having one state per person. The thing about this term, as much as it gets thrown around, though is, that in the case of the Balkans there actually was some historical culture that warranted the divisions that happened. Even with my country, that has some really rickety claims towards being an actual nation, the local language does, in fact, stretch back for half a millennia at least and the construct of Yugoslavia that popped up at the start of the 20th century was primarily a political one, as opposed to a cultural one. So it falling apart is not terribly surprising, with the hindsight of history. I suppose the valid claim is, really - what is the historical and cultural context in which you frame the movement to seperate from the overarching country? In the case of Catalonia, yea I can see it since Iberian wedding and whatevs was the thing that merged what was actually there before and things kinda didn't go exactly rosy after that, but every million or two people getting cajoled into pushing for their own state purely on the basis of numbers and loosely shared ideology alone is rather absurd, because in that case I invite the muslims of Anglistan, Frankistan and Germanistan to rise up and lay rightful claim to european soil with their own nations, inshallah. 
CrazyLoon fucked around with this message at 22:08 on Dec 27, 2017 |
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Dec 27, 2017 22:01
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BabyFur Denny posted:I haven’t seen an official statement from the Catalan separatists saying that Barcelona shouldn’t have the right to hold an independence referendum after Catalonia gains its independence so I am not sure who is even being trolled here. A couple of months ago the major of Batea, a village in Tarragona, threatened to hold a referendum to decide whether to leave Catalonia and join Aragon (the province next door) because they were being discriminated against by the Generalitat. The answer from the representative of CiU (Puigdemont's party) was: ""We want you to quit, because you are not legitimised to take this decision and because you cannot speak for all of us." Meanwhile, the ANC (the biggest pro independence social organisation) showed their "anger and shame" an said that "the end doesn't justify the means". It was a mere publicity stunt, of course, but I didn't see anyone from the pro independence parties suggesting a referendum in that case. It made for a fun conversation 
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Dec 27, 2017 22:45
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