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The most relevant sets are towards the end, the Modern Batman stuff starting from like 2011 (categorized as Secrets and Revelations in the collection). Everything else will help inform you of how Batman was characterized over the years, but won't really be much use to what's happening now. OscarDiggs posted:For someone with no background in comics or Batman, is it going to be a good way to get into the series? FilthyImp fucked around with this message at 19:38 on Dec 26, 2017 |
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Dec 26, 2017 19:36
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How "no background" are we talking here? Like, have you seen the Nolan movies? Have you seen the animated series? Do you not know the general conceit of Batman? Have you literally never read a comic in your life?
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Dec 26, 2017 19:37
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Sorry,should have been more specific. I have seen the animated series and the Tim Burton/Joel Schumacher movies so I know about the conciet. Never read a Batman comic though. I have read comics before, but we're talking Tintin and Asterix and obelix from years ago; nothing this side of the millennium.
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Dec 26, 2017 19:47
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OscarDiggs posted:Sorry,should have been more specific. I have seen the animated series and the Tim Burton/Joel Schumacher movies so I know about the conciet. Never read a Batman comic though. I have read comics before, but we're talking Tintin and Asterix and obelix from years ago; nothing this side of the millennium. Okay, regardless you should read Year One first no matter what. Then you have options. You can read the more self-contained singular stories - Killing Joke, Long Halloween, TDKR, Death in the Family, etc, and get a feel for what Batman comics are. OR you can jump straight into the deep end and read Morrison's Batman run. As long as you read The Black Casebook first, you'll get it, and it's also probably the best single run of comics ever. It's, however, extremely convoluted and long and especially to a new reader is a bit overwhelming, but that's Batman at his absolute best and doesn't rely on a ton of Bat-Family knowledge because Morrison introduces and basically solely uses Damian as the main Robin, so you won't have to be super familiar with all the Batgirls and the various Robins. OR you can do a readthrough of Snyder's Batman run. It's the N52 version, so it's almost entirely self-contained; HOWEVER, it has a major section that's virtually incomprehensible if you haven't read Morrison's run and specifically Batman, Inc volume 2, which is, unfortunately, the end of Morrison's run and will make no sense. Here's what I advise you do. Read Year One first. Then I'd read Killing Joke, The Dark Knight Returns, and Death in the Family - probably in that order - because they're the three most "important" stories for Batman comics readers to read behind Year One in the sense of how they influence Batman comics moving forward. If you need an explanation for who Jason Todd is for DitF, someone here will give you that - it's fairly important to know who Jason Todd was and why DitF was important for the tone of Batman comics, and he's constantly brought up and brought in to major comics in this decade. Then I'd read a Jeph Loeb Batman comic - they're all really loving bad, but they're great for new readers because it brings in everyone you want and all the iconic scenes, so you'll get a sampler of what Batman comics "are" from it. I'd advise either Long Halloween, because it's the least worst Loeb comic, or Hush, which is awful, but Hush is important, as it sets up a major character and foreshadows a major moment for Bat-comics moving on from it. It's also, again, basically a Greatest Hits of everything you'd ever want to get from Batman. Then I'd probably read Morrison's run of Batman comics, but it's so long and crisscrosses so many different comics (and Final Crisis is basically essential to read during it), that you need a reading order. Then I'd probably read Snyder's run of Batman at the tail end of Morrison's run, with Batman, Inc vol. 2 placed in its appropriate section.
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Dec 26, 2017 20:22
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I think you should dig up a copy of The Untold Legend of the Batman, Year One, and Zero Year, and report back and tell us what you thought about each one, and we'll make recommendations based on that.
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Dec 26, 2017 20:38
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Lick! The! Whisk! posted:A very detailed road map. Thanks a lot, that does clear up a lot of my questions about where to start; that was a pretty large road block in it's own right. As an aside, it likely won't matter for a while but when I'm finished with your suggestions, will that leave me up to speed with the "Modern" stuff, or is most of this stuff out of date with canon? I may not read comics but I know reboots and what have you are a thing. purple death ray posted:I think you should dig up a copy of The Untold Legend of the Batman, Year One, and Zero Year, and report back and tell us what you thought about each one, and we'll make recommendations based on that. Okay sure. I have no problem with that. Might take a bit since I'm mostly cashed out what with Christmas just happening. But I'll definitely check in with the thread with how things go.
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Dec 26, 2017 21:51
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It's tough because you want to recommend the best stories to people who haven't read them yet, but at the same time you want to give people an idea of what Batman comics are usually like, which is not usually the best stories. Batman is really good right now, so fortunately that's less of a problem. All three of the stories I mentioned are origin stories or at least origin-adjacent, and they're all really good and represent the best of their 'era' of Batman comics. That's why I'd recommend them. I would agree that Long Halloween is a great place for a new reader to start but I would go a bit further than saying it's the least terrible Jeph Loeb story, I think it's just plain good.
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Dec 26, 2017 22:14
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OscarDiggs posted:Thanks a lot, that does clear up a lot of my questions about where to start; that was a pretty large road block in it's own right. As an aside, it likely won't matter for a while but when I'm finished with your suggestions, will that leave me up to speed with the "Modern" stuff, or is most of this stuff out of date with canon? I may not read comics but I know reboots and what have you are a thing. Morrison and Snyder are the two guys with the most influence on Batman as singular creative voices that have worked on Batman in this century, and yes,if you do a Morrison to Snyder read through - some, like, 500 comics - you will be more or less completely caught up with Batman to the point you can start from Rebirth and be fine. King's run on Batman is shaping up to be an all-time classic, but if you've literally never read a Batman comic before I wouldn't start with it. purple death ray posted:It's tough because you want to recommend the best stories to people who haven't read them yet, but at the same time you want to give people an idea of what Batman comics are usually like, which is not usually the best stories. For the record I agree with most of this,except for the recommendation to read Zero Year right now. Its my second favorite overall Batman story but it's a story that asks a lot of the reader, and asks the reader to sort of know the contextual tone and ideas it riffs off of,the sort of metastory around Batman that has formed especially in the last two decades to form its own thing as Zero Year. In essence, it's a very demanding story. Basically if you are brand new I would argue the two biggest things, in order, to get into Batman comics are if they're accessible and if they're coherent to the overall informed backstory that is Batman now. Luckily, one of the best Batman stories of all time - Year One - is both. Its super easy to understand and no single comic has had a greater impact on Batman than that. Then we get to Killing Joke, which is also both, then TDKR, which by its nature of being an out of continuity story is really self contained and therefore very accessible. And its also a story that has sort of poisoned the next 30 years of Batman comics and is really the tone they used in Batman comics continuing on from it. For better or force worse, mostly for worse,Jason Todd IS the tone of modern-day Batman,and you therefore have to read DitF. Finally,this is why Jeph Loeb's comics are so good for new readers. They are super, duper accessible, because all they are are snapshots and greatest hits of every other Batman story. If you wanna know What Batman Comics Are About, read a Jeph Loeb Batman story. To that end, even though its way worse than Long Halloween and a genuinely bad story, I'd almost argue you should read Hush simply because over Long Halloween it has more significant impact on Batman moving forward and that Jim Lee art makes it feel like the coolest poo poo ever. Also re: purple death ray: I would probably have more affection for Long Halloween if it isn't the exact same loving story he uses in Dark Victory or Hush. As it stands I consider all of Loeb's Batman work to be one gigantic hoodwink that all starts with LH, where he sets up a dumb mystery that dominates the work that ends really unsatisfyingly, that he distracts from with "cool Batman poo poo".
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Dec 27, 2017 02:06
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Loeb's storytelling reminds me of the Arkham games (although the influence is in the other direction) because they both try to cram as much Bat-universe in as they can to a story regardless of how well it holds together. Eternal has a similar issue.
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Dec 27, 2017 02:41
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OscarDiggs posted:Thanks a lot, that does clear up a lot of my questions about where to start; that was a pretty large road block in it's own right. As an aside, it likely won't matter for a while but when I'm finished with your suggestions, will that leave me up to speed with the "Modern" stuff, or is most of this stuff out of date with canon? I may not read comics but I know reboots and what have you are a thing. Don’t be afraid to google a story to see what the art and the dialogue looks like. There’s a Batman story for everybody.
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Dec 27, 2017 02:49
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I like Long Halloween, but those last couple pages suck and totally mess up the story. I haven't read Dark Victory or Hush yet. After Year One (I'm not as in love with it as others, I think it's just decent, but then again I really don't like The Dark Knight Returns), I'd recommend checking out Batman and the Monster Men and Batman and the Mad Monk, both by Matt Wagner, and then follow that up with The Man Who Laughs by Brubaker. If you read it in that order, it sorta tracks the change of Gotham from a mob city to a supervillain city. I want to recommend Batman vs Predator, it's one of my favourites and the second one got me into comics, but they're not really "necessary" stories, though that scene with Alfred is probably one of those defining scenes in my mind.
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Dec 27, 2017 02:59
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catlord posted:I like Long Halloween, but those last couple pages suck and totally mess up the story. I haven't read Dark Victory or Hush yet. THIS poster has GOOD TASTE in batman
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Dec 27, 2017 03:03
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I want to recommend Batman: Cult because not enough people recommend Batman: Cult. Also Year One is a good Batman story and a great Gordon story.
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Dec 27, 2017 04:19
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OscarDiggs posted:Quick question from a non-comic goon. I recently saw an advertisement for "The Legend of Batman Collection" by Eaglemoss. Like a bi weekly release of Batman Graphic Novels. For someone with no background in comics or Batman, is it going to be a good way to get into the series? Just read everything since rebirth. If you want old stuff Long Haloween, Dark Victory, all of Miller's Batman stuff, and Hush are all enjoyable Batman stories.
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Dec 27, 2017 05:02
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OscarDiggs posted:Sorry,should have been more specific. I have seen the animated series and the Tim Burton/Joel Schumacher movies so I know about the conciet. Never read a Batman comic though. I have read comics before, but we're talking Tintin and Asterix and obelix from years ago; nothing this side of the millennium. My go to Batman reading list for newbies would go something like: Year One The Man Who Laughs The Long Halloween Dark Victory Arkham Asylum: A Serious House on Serious Earth The Killing Joke Dark Knight: The Last Crusade The Dark Knight Returns There, that's a fairly concise reading list of the highlights of Batman and with Year One and Dark Knight Returns you get a very clear beginning and a very definitive ending to the character. If you're still interested in the character after that then you can more or less start jumping into all sorts of runs afterwards because that list gives you more or less the gist of main events that happened to Bruce in the early Post Crisis/Frank Miller era. AFoolAndHisMoney fucked around with this message at 11:28 on Dec 27, 2017 |
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Dec 27, 2017 11:24
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So what's the general verdict on Tynion btw? I read a comic of his early on but wasn't impressed. It wasn't bad or anything, just kind of there. I haven't really been avoiding him per se, though and people seem to like him, so I'm willing to give him another chance.Lick! The! Whisk! posted:Then I'd read a Jeph Loeb Batman comic - they're all really loving bad, but they're great for new readers because it brings in everyone you want and all the iconic scenes, so you'll get a sampler of what Batman comics "are" from it. I'd advise either Long Halloween, because it's the least worst Loeb comic, or Hush, which is awful, but Hush is important, as it sets up a major character and foreshadows a major moment for Bat-comics moving on from it. It's also, again, basically a Greatest Hits of everything you'd ever want to get from Batman I mean I won't argue with any of this but is saying "Hey, read some terrible comics because they'll make you familiar with some concepts/get you up to speed with continuity" really the best way to hook a new reader? That just sounds like every stereotype someone who doesn't read superhero comics has about the genre.
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Dec 27, 2017 14:10
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I would 1000% suggest someone seek out the Ras al Ghul stuff from the 70s rather than read Hush just because Batman swordfights shirtless in the desert in each one
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Dec 27, 2017 14:13
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Lightning Lord posted:So what's the general verdict on Tynion btw? I read a comic of his early on but wasn't impressed, but people seem to like him, I'm willing to give him another chance. E: Loeb's stuff is popular, influential and bad. I don't know how you frame a recommendation given that. purple death ray posted:I would 1000% suggest someone seek out the Ras al Ghul stuff from the 70s rather than read Hush just because Batman swordfights shirtless in the desert in each one Sadly Tales of the Demon is a bit annoying to get a hold of.
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Dec 27, 2017 14:15
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purple death ray posted:I would 1000% suggest someone seek out the Ras al Ghul stuff from the 70s rather than read Hush just because Batman swordfights shirtless in the desert in each one Yes, plus like you said read Year One and Untold Legend, then read every comic Jim Aparo ever drew. That's the true path to Batmandom
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Dec 27, 2017 14:15
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Legends of the Dark Knight is a great source of deep-cut Batman stories.
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Dec 27, 2017 14:18
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Doctor Spaceman posted:Legends of the Dark Knight is a great source of deep-cut Batman stories. Kind of interesting that this list doesn't mention Snow by the late great Seth Fisher.
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Dec 27, 2017 14:21
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Lightning Lord posted:Kind of interesting that this list doesn't mention Snow by the late great Seth Fisher. Yeah that's a bit of an omission.
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Dec 27, 2017 14:26
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Lightning Lord posted:So what's the general verdict on Tynion btw? I read a comic of his early on but wasn't impressed. It wasn't bad or anything, just kind of there. I haven't really been avoiding him per se, though and people seem to like him, so I'm willing to give him another chance. I'm loving his run, it's very much a late 90s/early 00s Batman comic. His overarching plot kinda peaked with The League of Shadows arc, but his character development and small scale plot (especially with Clayface and Cass) is excellent. His Steph is great too, but it's tied to his larger Victim Syndicate arc which feels like it's treading water right now. I suspect he's had to stretch things out to time things better for his finale, like waiting for Metal to finish so he can do a crossover or something. e: Year One may be the most iconic Batman story but honestly Zero Year loving rules and is a better modern origin. For anyone new, I would recommend just reading Snyder's New 52 run. It's fantastic and was made specifically for new readers. You can read it pretty much straight through without any complicated event reading orders. The only caveat is I would suggest diverting after Zero Year to read Batman Eternal. The quality varies but I thought vol. 2 and 3 were much better than the first. Batman and Robin Eternal could be skipped, but if you plan on reading Tynion's Detective Comics it might be worth reading as it introduces Cass. Afterwards just continue on through King's run and maybe Tynion's if you want a crash course on the non-Damian/Dick Bat-family. If you want to go back and read an abridged history of Batman before reading Morrison's run I'd suggest this order: Year One The Man Who Laughs The Long Halloween Dark Victory Batgirl/Robin: Year One Nightwing: Year One Death in the Family The Killing Joke Arkham Asylum A Lonely Place of Dying Knightfall vol. 1 Road to No Man's Land / No Man's Land (not essential, but a fan favorite). Under the Hood (trash, but an unfortunately important development for the status quo) Misc. stuff to read before Morrison as well: Shaman Gothic Birth of the Demon (collection of three different graphic novels) The Cult Dark Knight, Dark City SMP fucked around with this message at 15:34 on Dec 27, 2017 |
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Dec 27, 2017 15:18
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I would like to submit that Shaman is crap and nobody should read it
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Dec 27, 2017 15:36
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OMG those Golden Age Batman collections are great! They used the old school coloring and they look amazing.
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Dec 27, 2017 16:10
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purple death ray posted:I would like to submit that Shaman is crap and nobody should read it It's been a while since I read it, so I skimmed the summary and yeah I think I'm misremembering it with another story. Shaman wasn't great.
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Dec 27, 2017 16:17
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Hobgoblin2099 posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8mVTKEc-mu8 I want it straight into my cerebral cortex
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Dec 27, 2017 16:53
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I forgot to mention Batman: Venom (and so did everyone else - for shame). It kind of goes off the rails at the end but it's a pretty good story about Batman being an obsessive freak and showing the lengths he would go to save everyone. Really a good intro to Batman without needing tons of backreading.
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Dec 27, 2017 18:45
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Lightning Lord posted:So what's the general verdict on Tynion btw? I read a comic of his early on but wasn't impressed. It wasn't bad or anything, just kind of there. I haven't really been avoiding him per se, though and people seem to like him, so I'm willing to give him another chance. I thought he did a fantastic job on Constantine the Hellblazer which was unfortunately a short lived run before Rebirth came along and was nowhere near as good. Otherwise everything else I've read by him has been mediocre as gently caress.
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Dec 27, 2017 22:52
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AFoolAndHisMoney posted:everything else I've read by him has been mediocre as gently caress. Read Batman/Ninja Turtles. That's good stuff. I haven't given The Woods or Backstagers a shot, but I think people like 'em.
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Dec 27, 2017 23:51
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Lightning Lord posted:
The most devious trick of Loeb comics is that they're not lovely when you read them, especially if you've never read a Batman comic before. If you've literally never read Batman before and you read, say, Hush for the first time you'll think it's the sickest poo poo ever, because it's got this "awesome" crazy brand new villain and every single iconic villain ever and Batman joking around with Robin and flirting with Catwoman and swordfighting in the desert and even a little bit of Batman fighting Superman and and and. Like, if you read Hush and you've never read Batman before you'll think it's incredible because it works completely on its own merits with no prior knowledge, has a zillion SUPER iconic Batman scenes and sequences, has everyone you'd ever want to see in the Bat-canon, has a whole bunch of twists including and especially a super-secret final one that recontextualizes the entire story, and has a long-running central mystery you want to see solved. The problem with Hush is twofold: the story falls apart if you think for even one second about anything that happens during it. In the moment everything that happens is so fresh and exciting you don't realize that the central plot doesn't really make any sense and is the barest of possible excuses to constantly put in cameos or "cool poo poo" sequences, but even worse is when you realize that, say, Hush doesn't do anything in Hush. The entirety of the overall plan of the story Hush works absolutely fine if Hush is not in it. Secondly, and this is the larger issue Loeb Batman comics has, all his stories do is just almost literally steal moments and sequences from other, better stories, throw them all into a blender, then call it a day. They don't work as stories; they're vehicles for scenes, and you realize that as you read more Batman comics that there's nothing Jeph Loeb does in any story he writes that isn't better done in the stories he's ripping off. He just combines every single cool moment from those other stories all into one product you can buy; that's his appeal. But if you're brand new those two problems don't matter. To get someone into Batman you should show them why Batman is a cool, appealing character, and Hush, despite all of its flaws and being a bad loving comic book, gets you excited to read Batman. It has all the iconic moments, it has his iconic villains, it has the romance, it has the comedy, it has the Batman and Robin relationship. It has it all. It's dumb nonsense, sure, but it's exciting dumb nonsense, and it reads super easily and has REALLY REALLY great art. If you want someone to get into Batman, you don't want to give them a comic that reads like homework; you want them to read something that gives a glimpse as to how awesome of a character Batman is and can be, and despite all of its problems Loeb's Batman totally does that. And unlike, say, RIP, which is everything I love and want out of Batman combined with an incredible story that pays off literally 70 years of stories in a super satisfying and profound way, it's a story that is entirely self-contained. Like, if you were to ask me right now what the three best Batman stories are of all time, I'd say it's RIP, then Zero Year, then War of Jokes and Riddles, in that order. But I wouldn't recommend any of those stories besides arguably the last one, and even that sort of relies on you knowing about N52 Joker specifically and how Batman usually works and the metanarrative importance of Kite Man for its final, incredible issue to land. Basically, my point is there's a whole gently caress of a lot better Batman stories for a new person to read than anything Loeb writes, but usually they're homework assignments. They're stories that build or pay off other stories or previous canon. For better or for worse Loeb Batman is the dumb action movie version of a Batman story, they're entirely self-contained, and more than anything else they're fun and super breezy.
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Dec 28, 2017 02:09
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I was super into Hush and the Jim Lee art when it came out but if I gotta read me some bad Jeff Loeb writing I'm way more about the Tim Sale art now.
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Dec 28, 2017 03:42
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Hush is probably the single worst villain in Batman's gallery. Writers (and Snyder in particular) need to stop making villains with personal ties to Bruce Wayne. Snyder alone has made Two-Face a childhood friend of Bruce's, Lincoln March as Bruce's "brother", and gave Alfred his own supervillain from the past. You could maybe count the Riddler and Freeze working for the company as well. There are no good or interesting angles to be taken there anymore.
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Dec 28, 2017 05:08
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SMP posted:Hush is probably the single worst villain in Batman's gallery. Writers (and Snyder in particular) need to stop making villains with personal ties to Bruce Wayne. Snyder alone has made Two-Face a childhood friend of Bruce's, Lincoln March as Bruce's "brother", and gave Alfred his own supervillain from the past. You could maybe count the Riddler and Freeze working for the company as well. There are no good or interesting angles to be taken there anymore. Harvey works better a modren friend of Bruces not a childhood one. (Which was already taken by Black Mask, then Hush. And now some stories do it to Penguin)
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Dec 28, 2017 05:18
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Good god when was Black Mask a childhood friend?
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Dec 28, 2017 05:23
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SMP posted:Good god when was Black Mask a childhood friend? I don't know the exact issues, but BM's parents hated Bruce's parents yet still wanted to maintain their social standing. So they forced him befriend Bruce. I'm pretty sure it was pre-N52.
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Dec 28, 2017 06:17
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SMP posted:Good god when was Black Mask a childhood friend? His first appearance in Batman #386, 1985 which described his origin. And yeah like Public Works said Roman's Parents hated Bruce's but forced him to befriend Bruce despite Roman not being fond of Bruce himself. Roman was also jealous of Bruce when his parents died as Roman hated his parents. In the main comic Roman becomes Black Mask and a criminal after he felt Bruce humiliated him. And mainly stuck to attacking Wayne employees and Bruce in his debut, before he became a full on crime lord. (He was also a lot crazier in his starting stories.)
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Dec 28, 2017 06:43
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Did i make a horrible mistake by buying all of the new 52 Detective comis run? This first tony daniel's issue says yes i did.
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Dec 28, 2017 07:28
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Mr Hootington posted:Did i make a horrible mistake by buying all of the new 52 Detective comis run? This first tony daniel's issue says yes i did. You are making a mistake if you don't share the highlights (or "highlights") with the rest of us.
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Dec 28, 2017 07:33
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Doctor Spaceman posted:Is that the one with One Face? Well the first issue had joker get his face cut off after he killed a 100+ former associates because he is being "remade" or sdonething dumb. Edit: Jesus issue 2. Tony Daniel writes terrible dialogue. This is gonna be an adventure alright. Mr Hootington fucked around with this message at 07:50 on Dec 28, 2017 |
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Dec 28, 2017 07:41
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