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R. Guyovich posted:irony twitter makes fun of liberal figures because they have clout. what clout does phil "never leaves his basement" greaves possess that can't be measured in piss bottles Her articles are funny and do describe a certain reality that I have run into constantly working in left wing spaces. So in some ways her articles are therapuetic to me but I think she enjoys getting a rise out of people
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Dec 27, 2017 15:07
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Also, DSA is soc Dem is not real at all and every DSA member right now is trying to out Stalin each other irl
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Dec 27, 2017 15:08
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you can pretend i said demsoc instead, it doesn't really change anything. marxist-leninists do this with ultras and maoists and it's not a particularly useful practice there either and in my political work i've encountered way more of the smug, quick to dismiss bonkers microsects types than the actual bonkers microsect types. probably because the latter group doesn't get out much
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Dec 27, 2017 15:13
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a big problem in left recruitment is that there's so much preemptive surrendering of rhetorical ground you look like a dissembling coward to people who haven't even voiced any doubts and that attitude has 100 percent been cultivated by the crusty barnacles of the Old DSA and their slightly younger hangers-on. amber and most of the jacobin people are the most visible members of the latter group
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Dec 27, 2017 15:17
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Karl Barks posted:Also, DSA is soc Dem is not real at all and every DSA member right now is trying to out Stalin each other irl When they're not telling each other to read Bookchin.
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Dec 27, 2017 15:24
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R. Guyovich posted:a big problem in left recruitment is that there's so much preemptive surrendering of rhetorical ground you look like a dissembling coward to people who haven't even voiced any doubts and that attitude has 100 percent been cultivated by the crusty barnacles of the Old DSA and their slightly younger hangers-on. amber and most of the jacobin people are the most visible members of the latter group What exactly do you mean here? What rhetorical ground are they surrendering? I'm not asking this as a challenge, btw, just curious about your opinions of the DSA/Jacobin.
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Dec 27, 2017 15:28
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Jizz Festival posted:What exactly do you mean here? What rhetorical ground are they surrendering? the immediate dismissal of a "lunatic fringe" that may or may not actually exist in any meaningful sense, and which changes depending on one's own ideological stance. plus the separate problem of not articulating a positive politics with concrete examples. this becomes especially difficult when you've ceded all anticommunist positions from the get go. you throw out the entire history of 20th century socialism and you're left with, what? scandinavian social democracy?
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Dec 27, 2017 15:35
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I can see where you're coming from, but having ridiculous people look ridiculous also hurts recruitment, and while it's important to be confident, and stand your ground and such, you also have to adapt to people's perceptions
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Dec 27, 2017 15:42
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when the soviets first took power, did they refer to past history as containing all possible economic systems? No, they tried something new. Even if they failed, they at least took a risk anything that's actually going to be bold enough to fix our current simultaneous crises, is emphatically not going to have concrete examples backing it up, because no past or present economic/political system is capable of weathering the storm
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Dec 27, 2017 15:45
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GunnerJ posted:When they're not telling each other to read Bookchin. Land of contrasts etc
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Dec 27, 2017 15:47
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rudatron posted:I can see where you're coming from, but having ridiculous people look ridiculous also hurts recruitment, and while it's important to be confident, and stand your ground and such, you also have to adapt to people's perceptions again, no one knows who the twitter people are. for most potential recruits, you're their only emissary to the broader left. you define the horizon of possibility, not them. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/unforced_error
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Dec 27, 2017 15:49
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reactionary element frost failed to speak up when nick mullen dismissed "the communist 'vag-n-breast-o'"
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Dec 27, 2017 15:50
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walgreenslatino posted:reactionary element frost failed to speak up when nick mullen dismissed "the communist 'vag-n-breast-o'" well see the difference there is nick is funny and amber is not.
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Dec 27, 2017 15:53
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R. Guyovich posted:amber sucks, dude
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Dec 27, 2017 15:59
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for some decades now the left has tended to resort to infighting for converts within the small group of people who are already radicalized versus engaging with working class people and trying to bring more of them to socialism. thats not true of every individual or person but its fairly common. how many people on this forum or in a myriad of leftbook groups can count the number of online arguments over the nature of the USSR theyve had and then how many of those same people have walked a picket line or even just tabled once? how many of them are actually active members of a party or organization thats actually engaging in working class politics? im a lot less interested in getting into ideological or tactical arguments with individuals or groups which are already radicalized but have different tactics and a lot more interested in figuring out what tactics work and putting them into practice to create more socialists. a lot of people here and everywhere online like to give groups and people poo poo for selling newspapers and tabling etc. but going out and being physically present and trying to push your ideas and sell them to people is how you make new socialists, not by arguing with or putting down people who have small tactical or theoretical disagreements with you. it takes time to find the best spots to table, and it takes time to find the correct slogans to use to get people to buy a newspaper filled with your ideas or even stop to buy a button or pin. these are actual tactical issues that have to be resolved, they're boring and mundane and not as fun as arguing about whether you're a socdem or a demsoc but this is the actual work that informs whether youre a demsoc or a socdem.
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Dec 27, 2017 16:17
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apropos to nothing posted:for some decades now the left has tended to resort to infighting for converts within the small group of people who are already radicalized versus engaging with working class people and trying to bring more of them to socialism. thats not true of every individual or person but its fairly common. how many people on this forum or in a myriad of leftbook groups can count the number of online arguments over the nature of the USSR theyve had and then how many of those same people have walked a picket line or even just tabled once? how many of them are actually active members of a party or organization thats actually engaging in working class politics? I think we can safely put to bed any tactics that involve selling newspapers and buttons in the year 2017 and beyond.
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Dec 27, 2017 16:23
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basically why write an article about some event or a party/org you disagree with? why not instead write one about a party/org or event you do support and help it grow?
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Dec 27, 2017 16:23
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apropos to nothing posted:basically why write an article about some event or a party/org you disagree with? why not instead write one about a party/org or event you do support and help it grow? yep. part of the problem is so much of the us left being defined as contra-something (thanks, '68!) rather than a movement for a better world. the panthers had it right but got cointelpro'd
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Dec 27, 2017 16:28
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Jizz Festival posted:I think we can safely put to bed any tactics that involve selling newspapers and buttons in the year 2017 and beyond. the moment it stops being effective then I'll stop doing it. this is actually a perfect example of what im talking about : my org and pretty much every other labor org and union in the area tables and finds success doing so. you have some strategy or tactic that will work better then why dont you tell me what it is instead of telling me how wrong we all are to do what were doing?
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Dec 27, 2017 16:31
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R. Guyovich posted:
Welcome to the Democratic Socialists of America
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Dec 27, 2017 16:34
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Jizz Festival posted:I think we can safely put to bed any tactics that involve selling newspapers and buttons in the year 2017 and beyond. I like buttons. 
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Dec 27, 2017 16:36
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right wing news and media circles basically give slavish support to anyone who's even remotely on their axis, getting into petty arguments isn't helpful for recruiting potential leftists because not everyone is into reading century old manifestos. If you can't describe socialism and why it's better than what we got in a paragraph then you can't recruit people who would want to agree with you. I forgot who said it on chapo but it was the recent tax bill episode but they talked about how the left doesn't have a common language anymore. A right winger can tell you exactly what is the cause of all the problems in the world and what are the solutions and all the cultural signifiers of their enemies and allies, but all those things can be described by a layperson too. We have to build a common understanding that is easy to pick up and use as a rhetorical device and so recruitment can spread through people who agree with us but don't have a way to articulate it.
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Dec 27, 2017 16:36
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okay, so I can see what you're saying. realistically, there's plenty of absurd and stupid people on the right, but the right is willing to close ranks to protect them. I think that's true. but i'm not sure it's a behavioral difference - more to the point, those right wing figures have real power. and given two equally pathetic people, one with power and one without, the one with power doesn't get flak, and the one without power does. a crime committed by a poor person is 100x worse than a crime committed by a rich person, even if they have the same consequences, because that's how power operates. and i think that's something that people do, all people, and that's as much a dynamic on the left as well - in the act of 'punching left' as homeex puts it, you're engaging in the same predatory behavior that reactionaries perform, for the same core emotional reason, of the thrill of hurting someone who can't fight back but that same lack of power, makes any mistakes made by the left all the more costly. the stakes are just that much higher, but only for the left. and so it's a lot more critical that good strategy, organization and such are in place, because you can't afford gently caress ups. and so, how does that process evolve, how can it evolve, if you're maintaining ignorance for the sake of personal sanity?
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Dec 27, 2017 16:55
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apropos to nothing posted:the moment it stops being effective then I'll stop doing it. this is actually a perfect example of what im talking about : my org and pretty much every other labor org and union in the area tables and finds success doing so. you have some strategy or tactic that will work better then why dont you tell me what it is instead of telling me how wrong we all are to do what were doing? Fun publicity stunts and parties/social events or whatever. You know, stuff thay isn't boring as poo poo.
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Dec 27, 2017 17:03
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apropos to nothing posted:the moment it stops being effective then I'll stop doing it. this is actually a perfect example of what im talking about : my org and pretty much every other labor org and union in the area tables and finds success doing so. you have some strategy or tactic that will work better then why dont you tell me what it is instead of telling me how wrong we all are to do what were doing? Do you spend your time trying to force a 20 page newspaper into peoples hands and collecting signatures for petitions which don't go anywhere or do you actually know the details of each of the campaign leaflets on the table and the event you're attending? 'Presence' is counter productive if you get the rep for bringing a horde of politically uneducated randos to an event handing out papers which have nothing to do with the event rather than contributing.
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Dec 27, 2017 17:05
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DSA fixing taillights is more effective than pamphlets
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Dec 27, 2017 17:20
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trotskyists are garbage tier leftists submit reply
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Dec 27, 2017 17:23
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Jizz Festival posted:Fun publicity stunts and parties/social events or whatever. You know, stuff thay isn't boring as poo poo. I'm not trying to start an argument with you specifically but this kind of flippant dismissal is just exactly why I increasingly disengage from discussion about socialism in online places. so many people are very angry and flippant about others without wanting to seriously engage with what is being said. this is a perfect example because what you describe is exactly what we and all these other orgs do - we hold public rallies and festivals for May Day and international women's day and pride and every other left day or event and at these fun happy events that we put together, we table! and by doing so we get the phone numbers and emails of the people present so we can contact them later and get them to come to future events. and they buy our pins and papers and pamphlets which helps us fundraiser for actions and spreads out ideas. there's also plenty of people who won't show up at these fun events because they have to work or are busy so we table in front of retail spaces too sometimes and talk to their workers and anyone else who walks by about unions and about how to organize ad about the need for universal healthcare and higher wages. like yes having fun events is a good thing to do but it shouldn't take the place of going to people where they live and work an talking to them about what their issues are and how we can help address them. like yeah tabling is boring, even at fun events it can be boring. meetings are boring. picket lines and strikes are boring and they take months of planning at boring meetings to pull off successfully. data entry and phone banking are boring. not trying to be a downer cause I wouldn't trade all the time I've spent doing this stuff for anything but not all the work can be fun or sexy
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Dec 27, 2017 17:23
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If you want politics to be fun instead of serious work you probably shouldn't be involved.
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Dec 27, 2017 17:38
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namesake posted:Do you spend your time trying to force a 20 page newspaper into peoples hands and collecting signatures for petitions which don't go anywhere or do you actually know the details of each of the campaign leaflets on the table and the event you're attending? 'Presence' is counter productive if you get the rep for bringing a horde of politically uneducated randos to an event handing out papers which have nothing to do with the event rather than contributing. Tiberius Christ posted:DSA fixing taillights is more effective than pamphlets Karl Barks posted:trotskyists are garbage tier leftists submit reply our only petition which we spent the past year gathering was to get a ballot measure on the next ballot to restore voting rights to felons and we tabled to get signatures for that for practically a year along with every other left or labor group in the state. again, these really snide and flippant owns or whatever are really frustrating cause rather than engage with what I and others say you just project what you want to be true on to us. yeah we get people to sign petitions, and yeah we try to sell newspapers that give our position on current events and yeah we have pamphlets that describe what socialism is. we use these as tools to make more socialists. and with those people who are already socialists, we work together to help one another. I said it before in the DSA thread and maybe none of yall are DSA but I assume most people in this subforum are - all of the DSA people I've met irl are very genuine and nice and we work together and help each other so I have no clue why online so many people who identify as DSA seem so sectarian. our local org has great relations with every local labor or left group and we continuously attract new blood and the reason for this is because of our tactics but also because we try to be nice to everyone and we dont talk poo poo about other groups or their tactics
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Dec 27, 2017 17:39
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:the truth is that everyone is descended from Slav 🥔 
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Dec 27, 2017 17:39
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apropos to nothing posted:I'm not trying to start an argument with you specifically but this kind of flippant dismissal is just exactly why I increasingly disengage from discussion about socialism in online places. so many people are very angry and flippant about others without wanting to seriously engage with what is being said. I am being flippant, but doing "what's been proven" is such a conservative approach to take in an area where there's been so little success. What if it doesn't have to be boring? What if the reason that you're working so hard is because nobody is attracted to your organization (because it's boring)? What if people are bored because they're being educated and organized rather than educating and organizing themselves?
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Dec 27, 2017 17:39
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The tail light thing is a good program I'd like to see another program distributing Narcan in communities hard-hit by heroin, tied to public policy education around addiction ~ sort of how they tied the taillight program to education about discriminatory policing etc Just my take
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Dec 27, 2017 17:46
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apropos to nothing posted:our only petition which we spent the past year gathering was to get a ballot measure on the next ballot to restore voting rights to felons and we tabled to get signatures for that for practically a year along with every other left or labor group in the state. again, these really snide and flippant owns or whatever are really frustrating cause rather than engage with what I and others say you just project what you want to be true on to us. yeah we get people to sign petitions, and yeah we try to sell newspapers that give our position on current events and yeah we have pamphlets that describe what socialism is. we use these as tools to make more socialists. and with those people who are already socialists, we work together to help one another. I said it before in the DSA thread and maybe none of yall are DSA but I assume most people in this subforum are - all of the DSA people I've met irl are very genuine and nice and we work together and help each other so I have no clue why online so many people who identify as DSA seem so sectarian. our local org has great relations with every local labor or left group and we continuously attract new blood and the reason for this is because of our tactics but also because we try to be nice to everyone and we dont talk poo poo about other groups or their tactics Mine was a genuine question because I was describing my (and many others) experiences with how British Trotskyist groups operate at an organisational level and the consequentially totally accurate reputation they have and give to leftwing newspapers amongst longterm activists and leftwingers. If you're producing good material, if you and your comrades are actually absorbing and using that material and seeing real education and recruitment of the working class then you're doing it right; huge amounts of the left are doing it really, really wrong.
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Dec 27, 2017 17:47
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apropos to nothing posted:our only petition which we spent the past year gathering was to get a ballot measure on the next ballot to restore voting rights to felons and we tabled to get signatures for that for practically a year along with every other left or labor group in the state. again, these really snide and flippant owns or whatever are really frustrating cause rather than engage with what I and others say you just project what you want to be true on to us. yeah we get people to sign petitions, and yeah we try to sell newspapers that give our position on current events and yeah we have pamphlets that describe what socialism is. we use these as tools to make more socialists. and with those people who are already socialists, we work together to help one another. I said it before in the DSA thread and maybe none of yall are DSA but I assume most people in this subforum are - all of the DSA people I've met irl are very genuine and nice and we work together and help each other so I have no clue why online so many people who identify as DSA seem so sectarian. our local org has great relations with every local labor or left group and we continuously attract new blood and the reason for this is because of our tactics but also because we try to be nice to everyone and we dont talk poo poo about other groups or their tactics i mean, i think part of it is i'm posting in cspam on somethingawful in the LF thread. i'm never outwardly rude to trotsky people or really any political persuasion on the left offline. most of the serious trotsky people i've spent time with irl (which is 3, and they are in DSA) are bordering on cultists, but i would imagine this is a function of these specific people and not the group as a whole. a lot of it comes down to differences in strategy, and it ruffles my feathers when they try to convince our local that passing out newspapers is the most important work we can do and will actively push back against mutual aid and electoral projects
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Dec 27, 2017 17:47
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i liked all the Science for the People members i met, they are some flavor of trot
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Dec 27, 2017 17:48
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Jizz Festival posted:I am being flippant, but doing "what's been proven" is such a conservative approach to take in an area where there's been so little success. What if it doesn't have to be boring? What if the reason that you're working so hard is because nobody is attracted to your organization (because it's boring)? What if people are bored because they're being educated and organized rather than educating and organizing themselves? I hear what you're saying and yeah, its not about one person or group of people coming in and "organizing" people. workers have to organize themselves and the working class is always the subject of organizing, not the object. that being said, its difficult to organize and educate without help from those who have been there before. again, planning events can be boring sometimes but it's absolutely necessary for them to be successfull. anecdotally, I've seen socialist orgs in our area that have come together quickly, helped form up a union and lead a strike, only to not adequately do the boring planning and the strike failed because they didnt have enough in a strike fund, the business shut down, all the workers lost their job, and the org fell apart because people left or blamed each other for the failure. you absolutely have to lay the groundwork for the exciting stuff to work and translate into wins. I think it's a habit of people on the left to look back at the last 20-30 years and see the tactics and strategy used by people as a failure because the left was so miniscule, but I think it's also important to step back and realize that the current level of activity and organization that's occurring right now wouldn't necessarily be happening if they hadn't been doing the work they did during that time. I've learned a lot from activists and organizers who are older than me and were around for much leaner times.
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Dec 27, 2017 17:50
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i've mentioned it in this thread before, the 3 trotsky people are on our steering committee and tried to convince us to not incorporate, and to instead open up a book store or newspaper front group to embezzle money. which is the insanely stupid, and led me to believe the entryist stuff i read about might actually be true
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Dec 27, 2017 17:51
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i want a juche tracksuit
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Dec 27, 2017 17:53
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i want a shirt that says "got juche?"
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Dec 27, 2017 17:57
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