|
Gatts posted:I do figure what she can do is something a reasonable user could do but the advanced poo poo takes a lot. Even Snoke said I thought that he facilitated their Force conversations Yeah, in the throne room scene, Snoke says he linked their minds so he could discover where Luke was hiding or something. Ginette Reno posted:Rey gets what seems like even less training from Luke than Luke got from Yoda and yet she can move twenty rocks at once with ease and kick all kinds of rear end with a lightsaber. It just doesn't make a lot of sense. I think it's fair enough. Anakin was able to use the Force intuitively to fly a podracer and then climb into a starfighter he'd never seen before and pilot it in a space battle and the sum total of his training at the time was about zero. As far as the lightsaber fighting goes, Rey already has fighting skills, so I'm happy to suppose that her connection to the Force amplifies them. 
Wheat Loaf fucked around with this message at 19:23 on Dec 27, 2017 |
#
?
Dec 27, 2017 19:20
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 4, 2024 16:14 |
|
|
Ginette Reno posted:I'm going by what the movies have actually established. Luke the son of Darth Vader received what seemed to be weeks or months of training from Yoda. Despite that, he was not particularly effective with the Force in ESB. By Jedi he started being able to do things. In the prequels we see that there are a whole shitload of Jedi at various levels of ability and they come from all different worlds and presumably very different backgrounds. So I don't think we can just look at Vader, Luke, and Yoda and presume to know what the "normal" trajectory of a Jedi's ability would be.
|
|
#
?
Dec 27, 2017 19:21
|
|
|
Ginette Reno posted:I'm going by what the movies have actually established. Luke the son of Darth Vader received what seemed to be weeks or months of training from Yoda. Despite that, he was not particularly effective with the Force in ESB. By Jedi he started being able to do things. When she's stuck with grumpy no training Luke, part of her daily routine was combat training with her staff. She was already a better hand to hand fighter than Luke was when their respective first movies started.
|
|
#
?
Dec 27, 2017 19:26
|
|
|
The worst part about Star Wars fans is the worst part about Dragon Ball Z fans: the obsession about power levels. "Clearly Gohan shouldn't be able to use Force Lightning at his levels of midichlorians, nevermind Rey being able to use the Kamehameha". Half of Luke's scenes were basically "the Force is fuckin' everywhere, you can do whatever with it because it's everything", why do people have to level up and spec into a skillset when it's just magic?
|
|
#
?
Dec 27, 2017 19:29
|
|
|
I like the idea that the son of Anakin Skywalker turned out to be just a run of the mill Jedi, but his connection to Anakin saved him and the galaxy. The real power comes from nobodies like Rey and slave boy Anakin.
|
|
#
?
Dec 27, 2017 19:29
|
|
|
Basebf555 posted:In the prequels we see that there are a whole shitload of Jedi at various levels of ability and they come from all different worlds and presumably very different backgrounds. So I don't think we can just look at Vader, Luke, and Yoda and presume to know what the "normal" trajectory of a Jedi's ability would be. That's just it though. Those three are exceptional even among Jedi, yet we know that it took Luke three movies to become a competent fighter and force user. Anakin and Luke both displayed exceptional natural talent in piloting pod racers and making trick shots on the Death Star but after Ep1 Anakin had years of training with Obi-Wan to explain his progression and after Ep4 Luke could barely summon a Lightsaber to save himself from a Wampa and then had what seemed like weeks or months of training with Yoda which still left him all but helpless against Vader. Meanwhile Rey beats Kylo despite having no training with the Force and then looks like a master duelist despite having like three lessons from Luke. And then she can still compete with Kylo in that little battle of wills they had over the Lightsaber despite Kylo being described as powerful and with him having way more training than she has had.
|
|
#
?
Dec 27, 2017 19:32
|
|
|
Ginette Reno posted:Meanwhile Rey beats Kylo despite having no training with the Force and then looks like a master duelist despite having like three lessons from Luke. And then she can still compete with Kylo in that little battle of wills they had over the Lightsaber despite Kylo being described as powerful and with him having way more training than she has had. Rey beats an injured Kylo Ren that gets caught by surprise. She IS already a very skilled hand-to-hand fighter and they establish that very early - the lightsaber is just another weapon. During the Red Guard fight she has trouble one-on-one while Kylo deals with three dudes at once, and she STRUGGLES against him until the lightsaber blows up.
|
|
#
?
Dec 27, 2017 19:35
|
|
|
Ginette Reno posted:That's just it though. Those three are exceptional even among Jedi, yet we know that it took Luke three movies to become a competent fighter and force user. Anakin and Luke both displayed exceptional natural talent in piloting pod racers and making trick shots on the Death Star but after Ep1 Anakin had years of training with Obi-Wan to explain his progression and after Ep4 Luke could barely summon a Lightsaber to save himself from a Wampa and then had what seemed like weeks or months of training with Yoda which still left him all but helpless against Vader. The only Jedi that's shown to be exceptional(not for a regular person remember, for a Jedi) is Anakin. In ANH the Jedi are almost extinct, so Luke is exceptional simply for the fact that he is sensitive to the Force. At the height of the Jedi we have no idea how he would have stacked up against the rest, whether he'd have been average or something more. Maybe Luke is rather dull and a slow learner compared to the average Padawan 500 years ago. Even Anakin's status is questionable, you can easily read the prequels as a prophecy being fulfilled via confirmation bias, and that the Jedi saw the Chosen One in him because they wanted to.
|
|
#
?
Dec 27, 2017 19:39
|
|
|
Dias posted:The worst part about Star Wars fans is the worst part about Dragon Ball Z fans: the obsession about power levels. "Clearly Gohan shouldn't be able to use Force Lightning at his levels of midichlorians, nevermind Rey being able to use the Kamehameha". Half of Luke's scenes were basically "the Force is fuckin' everywhere, you can do whatever with it because it's everything", why do people have to level up and spec into a skillset when it's just magic? It's not Dragon Ball Z so much as it is RPG stuff; Rey needs more XP so she can level up and obtain the "Proficient Lightsaber Duellist" attribute. Look at Knights of the Old Republic, for instance. Fans (and other EU writers) decided that Revan must have been the most powerful Force user who ever lived because s/he's an RPG player character and you can max out all of his/her stats.
|
|
#
?
Dec 27, 2017 19:44
|
|
|
Blazing Ownager posted:If this is the winning theory, all I can say is hahaha gently caress this movie. I disliked the movie a lot but I feel like you're missing the point of a lot of the original trilogy with this. Force powers are very useful but they were never shown as capable of what you want, and it would've lessened Luke's character by ultimately giving Kylo exactly what he wanted. Basebf555 posted:The only Jedi that's shown to be exceptional(not for a regular person remember, for a Jedi) is Anakin. In ANH the Jedi are almost extinct, so Luke is exceptional simply for the fact that he is sensitive to the Force. At the height of the Jedi we have no idea how he would have stacked up against the rest, whether he'd have been average or something more. Maybe Luke is rather dull and a slow learner compared to the average Padawan 500 years ago. Vader believed he met the qualifications for a Jedi after seeing his lightsaber and Luke started ~8 years after Anakin did, and Anakin started relatively late for a Jedi. Maybe Luke wouldn't have matched up against Anakin before he was crippled but he was definitely not a slow learner.
|
|
#
?
Dec 27, 2017 19:54
|
|
|
Ginette Reno posted:That's just it though. Those three are exceptional even among Jedi, yet we know that it took Luke three movies to become a competent fighter and force user. Anakin and Luke both displayed exceptional natural talent in piloting pod racers and making trick shots on the Death Star but after Ep1 Anakin had years of training with Obi-Wan to explain his progression and after Ep4 Luke could barely summon a Lightsaber to save himself from a Wampa and then had what seemed like weeks or months of training with Yoda which still left him all but helpless against Vader. Well in the original trilogy showed restraint probably due to what special effects could do at the time and didn't get into the DBZ levels of power creep that the prequels and new films have where everything has to be bigger and flashier because CGI makes it possible. No one wants to see the same slow character build that Luke went through and the limited uses the Force had, it's all about instant satisfaction which ironically gets incredibly boring.
|
|
#
?
Dec 27, 2017 19:54
|
|
|
the Force can literally do anything if you believe hard enough. it can even make a woman pregnant.
|
|
#
?
Dec 27, 2017 19:57
|
|
|
What is it with Dragonball and people bringing it up in these power level discussions?
|
|
#
?
Dec 27, 2017 19:58
|
|
|
sponges posted:What is it with Dragonball and people bringing it up in these power level discussions? Power levels are an iconic thing for western Dragon Ball fans and Dragon Ball is iconic for a lot of people born in the 90s
|
|
#
?
Dec 27, 2017 19:59
|
|
|
precision posted:the Force can literally do anything if you believe hard enough. it can even make a woman pregnant. So Shmee getting pregnant by "the force" just means she had a good pounding?
|
|
#
?
Dec 27, 2017 20:02
|
|
|
TheKingofSprings posted:Power levels are an iconic thing for western Dragon Ball fans and Dragon Ball is iconic for a lot of people born in the 90s Which is funny given that the point of power levels in Dragon ball was that putting a number to fighting power is actually really dumb (this is why people with scouters get surprise-wrecked all the time) I am aware that that has nothing to do with star wars but Rey being able to use the force very well is... totally fine. I mean it is, as another poster said, magic.
|
|
#
?
Dec 27, 2017 20:04
|
|
|
These Star War movies are over analyzed
|
|
#
?
Dec 27, 2017 20:05
|
|
|
There's also the possibility that Rey is simply the most powerful Force user we've ever been shown in Star Wars. The Chosen One, if you will.
|
|
#
?
Dec 27, 2017 20:06
|
|
|
It certainly makes sense that we're talking about ability levels in anime and role playing games when a far more reasonable analogue would be physical ability, which has innate components which determine rate of improvement and generally dictate a maximum practical ability, but also repeated training.
|
|
#
?
Dec 27, 2017 20:07
|
|
|
Blazing Ownager posted:If this is the winning theory, all I can say is hahaha gently caress this movie. He didn't "die from exertion". He exerted himself, finished what he set out to do, and became one with the force. The visual language is incredibly explicit here, there's a reason he doesn't just collapse and die, and instead peacefully stares off into the horizon before fading away. Saying Luke should have been "shaken out of retirement" misses the point of the character and the film. He's done fighting. His triumph in this movie was inspiring the next generation and giving them the hope and chance they needed to do it themselves. "we are what they grow beyond".
|
|
#
?
Dec 27, 2017 20:08
|
|
|
|
|
#
?
Dec 27, 2017 20:09
|
|
|
I love what a drastic misreading it is of literally every Star Wars film to think that Luke Skywalker's eventual ending should involve him killing a bunch of people with Force Magic Missile or something.
|
|
#
?
Dec 27, 2017 20:10
|
|
|
Basebf555 posted:There's also the possibility that Rey is simply the most powerful Force user we've ever been shown in Star Wars. The Chosen One, if you will. Snoke seems more powerful with Force than her tho.
|
|
#
?
Dec 27, 2017 20:10
|
|
|
Upon seeing Anakin Qui Gon: “ITS OVER 9000...MIDOCHLORIANS!”
|
|
#
?
Dec 27, 2017 20:11
|
|
|
Why is it odd that Rey is so good? Luke is "the best bush pilot in the outer rim territories" and is able to not just not die, but be tremendously effective his very first time in an X-Wing. Immediate hyper-competence is like a thing for Star War characters. Anakin could do something that apparently almost no other human can, and he was like fuckin 9 years old. He also manages to not die in a pitched space battle Rey being talented is not a stretch
|
|
#
?
Dec 27, 2017 20:11
|
|
|
s.i.r.e. posted:Snoke seems more powerful with Force than her tho. I meant potentially, he's obviously has many many years to improve his abilities.
|
|
#
?
Dec 27, 2017 20:12
|
|
|
s.i.r.e. posted:Snoke seems more powerful with Force than her tho. The ability to move people through the air is insignificant next to actually understanding the Force. ImpAtom posted:I love what a drastic misreading it is of literally every Star Wars film to think that Luke Skywalker's eventual ending should involve him killing a bunch of people with Force Magic Missile or something. I'm getting this tattooed on my forehead.
|
|
#
?
Dec 27, 2017 20:12
|
|
|
PT6A posted:It certainly makes sense that we're talking about ability levels in anime and role playing games when a far more reasonable analogue would be physical ability, which has innate components which determine rate of improvement and generally dictate a maximum practical ability, but also repeated training. That's why it makes sense, because it's the Force and the Force is magical bullshit.
|
|
#
?
Dec 27, 2017 20:13
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:I love what a drastic misreading it is of literally every Star Wars film to think that Luke Skywalker's eventual ending should involve him killing a bunch of people with Force Magic Missile or something. not emptyquoting
|
|
#
?
Dec 27, 2017 20:14
|
|
|
Blazing Ownager posted:*Makes force hologram* "This space magic trick we've never seen before did not work in the way I wanted it to THAT MAKES NO SENSE"
|
|
#
?
Dec 27, 2017 20:17
|
|
|
quote:You do not kill a character like Luke loving Skywalker from exertion. And if you DO go that route you make sure it's something way the gently caress more epic than a long distance Total Recall trick, like sucking their entire fleet into a Goddamn gravity well or something, or go full on over the top and have him crash a Star Destroyer or something.  Username/av check out
|
|
#
?
Dec 27, 2017 20:19
|
|
|
Basebf555 posted:There's also the possibility that Rey is simply the most powerful Force user we've ever been shown in Star Wars. The Chosen One, if you will. Or perhaps something like the Mule, from the Foundation series? Someone of tremendous power with no place in the "expected" story, who appears totally at random from very humble circumstances, and who may well not only topple the established power structures, but even take over the galaxy.
|
|
#
?
Dec 27, 2017 20:20
|
|
|
Ginette Reno posted:Luke is definitely meant to be a strong Jedi. There's a reason the Emperor had a boner for the thought of him as an apprentice. And Vader says several times in ROTJ that Luke is powerful. He's especially impressed at Luke having constructed his own light saber. This is because the Force isn't a tool to learn to use. Training is bullshit.
|
|
#
?
Dec 27, 2017 20:20
|
|
|
Tender Bender posted:He didn't "die from exertion". He exerted himself, finished what he set out to do, and became one with the force. The visual language is incredibly explicit here, there's a reason he doesn't just collapse and die, and instead peacefully stares off into the horizon before fading away. Yeah, Luke, like, achieved nirvana (or, more likely, given that he's bound to turn up in IX, fully embraced his Bodhisattva nature). It's no coincidence that he lost his way, after his compassionate triumph on the Death Star, by turning on his lightsaber
|
|
#
?
Dec 27, 2017 20:22
|
|
|
Waffles Inc. posted:Why is it odd that Rey is so good? Luke is "the best bush pilot in the outer rim territories" and is able to not just not die, but be tremendously effective his very first time in an X-Wing. Immediate hyper-competence is like a thing for Star War characters. Luke's a good pilot because he was a flyboy back on Tatooine and Rey's a good fighter because she carries a melee weapon with her constantly and is good at using it, which seems to transfer over to using a lightsaber. Tender Bender posted:The ability to move people through the air is insignificant next to actually understanding the Force. Oh jesus, please tell me what "actually understanding" the Force is. Because Rey herself doesn't even understand it until she meets Luke.
|
|
#
?
Dec 27, 2017 20:25
|
|
|
Basebf555 posted:Do you? Because I initially was responding very specifically to this part of your post: Well I am also saying I hope, prey, you are wrong because it's dumb as gently caress if you're right. I'm still not convinced.
|
|
#
?
Dec 27, 2017 20:27
|
|
|
It means understanding that you are a tool for the force and not vice versa, the film explicitly states this. Know that you are part of it and not its master. Snoke throws it around like it's a fun superpower and how does that work out for him?
|
|
#
?
Dec 27, 2017 20:29
|
|
|
Blazing Ownager posted:Well I am also saying I hope, prey, you are wrong because it's dumb as gently caress if you're right. I'm still not convinced. What's your opinion on what happened to Obi Wan? Why did he disappear instead of being cut in half by Vader's lightsaber?
|
|
#
?
Dec 27, 2017 20:33
|
|
|
ImpAtom posted:I love what a drastic misreading it is of literally every Star Wars film to think that Luke Skywalker's eventual ending should involve him killing a bunch of people with Force Magic Missile or something. Like one guy said this. Maybe respond to the criticism of the stupid double fakeout they did with the plot. Who cares about star wars, it's bad on its own.
|
|
#
?
Dec 27, 2017 20:33
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 4, 2024 16:14 |
|
|
Like it's not a coincidence that every strong-in-the-force protagonist accomplishes great feats and seems able to perform things that should be impossible for them. It's almost as if they have a strong connection to this intangible presence that binds all things. I can't really understand how you can watch any Star Wars movie and walk away thinking "I see, so the force is basically a skill tree you grind up".
|
|
#
?
Dec 27, 2017 20:35
|
|