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The problem with updating KotE is that the parts that are embarrassing racist nonsense is the skeleton and the good parts is what they wound up building around that. To make it really good you'd have to rewrite literally everything.
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Dec 28, 2017 00:44
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Rand Brittain posted:The problem with updating KotE is that the parts that are embarrassing racist nonsense is the skeleton and the good parts is what they wound up building around that. There's nothing really racist about going to hell and then coming back as a demon-undead. The way to do it is to have everyone go to their own version of Hell, and then make the various Paths less culturally focused, or go the nWoD way of having 5 generic Paths and then a ton of sub-Paths that can as cultural or not as you want. The trick is not to base the game entirely on anime and Chinese Ghost Story.
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Dec 28, 2017 02:32
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Thanqol posted:Sure, but what specifically? I mean, I'm sure the market sells that stuff, but what about that needs a law written down for it? Batted around for a bit and this is what we came up with. ON THE SELLING OF TISSUE Any sale by the purchaser at the Goblin Market of shall be done in such a way to maximize preservation or freshness or value. As such, the selling of a (limb, organ, extrusion) in part or whole shall be done at the moment of sale by the purchaser or purchaser's indebted proxy. At all times the specification must be made as to the currency is of Mask or Mien or Mutation and priced accordingly. Should a piece if self have already been separated from the person, it may only be sold if the purchasee is given three (3) options from which to choose for the freshest by comparison. (The market does not care if you are selling other people's organs but if you're going to do it you have to go full cooler bag of ice about it.)
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Dec 28, 2017 02:53
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MonsieurChoc posted:There's nothing really racist about going to hell and then coming back as a demon-undead. The way to do it is to have everyone go to their own version of Hell, and then make the various Paths less culturally focused, or go the nWoD way of having 5 generic Paths and then a ton of sub-Paths that can as cultural or not as you want. There's nothing racist about that specific idea, shorn of all the trimmings, no, but basically literally everything about how Wan Kuei are described and how they organize themselves is just... well, you know. If you make a bunch of different hells and make all the other stuff less culturally-focused, you're still basically writing a new game.
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Dec 28, 2017 03:21
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Rand Brittain posted:The problem with updating KotE is that the parts that are embarrassing racist nonsense is the skeleton and the good parts is what they wound up building around that. they had to do that for a lot of the other lines as well, even if they've got more obvious ancedents in pop-culture monsters and just spitballing here, but I don't think it's impossible- for example it's super easy to drop the "special Asian vampire" angle, and just have them be a culturally and ethnically neutral form of (essentially) oWoD Risen that typically come back as fairly mindless and bestial and quickly degenerate unless someone slaps some sense into them and instills a philosophy/set of rules/superstitions (which are by no means whatever origin you'd care to describe the KotE "philosophies" as) they can adhere to control themselves, or rarely they manage it on their own this explains why you'd have reclusive but occasionally meddlesome societies of self-improving undead that adhere to weird supernatural rules, while not needing a racist cosmology, and the game maybe also lets you play The Highlander The real problem comes with the power set and the way they fit into the cosmology I think- you probably don't want to do a hackneyed version "chi"/the five elements (even if you do want your supernatural to have similar powers, since if we're being honest immortal wuxia is at least part of the point), and most of the other obvious solutions seem like they'd be duplicative and suggest incompatible powers (i.e. if you're fused with a powerful underworld spirit aren't you basically a Sin-Eater?/why wouldn't your powers be death themed? Uratha are already human-spirit hybrids, trying to become human is Promethean's whole deal, and mages deal with the Supernal/transcending humanity via enlightenment). This toe-stepping is admittedly an issue for most hypothetical new lines in cWoD I think. one possibility is maybe tying their power source to the Astral Plane/Pandemonium, since I believe it's still the only major Realm Invisible below the Supernal that lacks a major supernatural type, Pandemonium pretty much is Hell/demonic, and the Temenos/Anima Mundi give pretty obvious explanations of "archetypal" powers- however I'm having a hard time coming up with a way to tie it into a cohesive whole (since a Risen-esque creature implies a ghost not moving on, and a tie to the Astral/Pandemonium implies ~something~ either slumming or incapable/refusing to ascend)
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Dec 28, 2017 03:33
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LGD posted:they had to do that for a lot of the other lines as well, even if they've got more obvious ancedents in pop-culture monsters They really didn't. The line that got the most revision was Changeling, and all they actually had to do there was remove all the bizarre contradictions and come up with consistent depictions of what Banality was, and update the political status quo to something resonant today. They didn't completely rewrite it to remove all the kiths named after Eurofae or remove the Gallain or get rid of the medieval social structure.
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Dec 28, 2017 03:56
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LGD posted:they had to do that for a lot of the other lines as well, even if they've got more obvious ancedents in pop-culture monsters wait i'm confused are you talking about bringing kote to nwod?
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Dec 28, 2017 03:59
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Rand Brittain posted:They really didn't. Unfortunately.
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Dec 28, 2017 04:20
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Gerund posted:purchaser Either that words doesn't mean what you think it means, or Changeling uses some weird and confusing lingo.
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Dec 28, 2017 04:46
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Beast was the line that was supposed to get into Astral shenanigans other than mage. Unfortunately.
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Dec 28, 2017 04:47
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ZiegeDame posted:Either that words doesn't mean what you think it means, or Changeling uses some weird and confusing lingo. The idea was to go for odd filigree language but I've heard the phrase used before when talking about the people that buy goods for businesses to sell (clothing boutiques?) There might be something specific I'm missing?
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Dec 28, 2017 04:58
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Gerund posted:The idea was to go for odd filigree language but I've heard the phrase used before when talking about the people that buy goods for businesses to sell (clothing boutiques?) There might be something specific I'm missing? Purchase means buy, so without the context there it seems like the buyer is somehow selling something. Consider 'retailer'. Or if someone is selling a bunch of body parts at once, the 'wholesaler'! Come to think of it, the idea of a 'body parts wholesaler' of bits at reasonable prices, no questions asked, as long as you don't ask any questions either or try to figure out where they're from. And so investigating them is actively discouraged and punished because having them around is so dang useful. And they always have the parts too. If you need ten left thumbs, they have ten left thumbs. They can do you three six-fingered hands, but that's a special order so they'll need three days for shipping (from where???).
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Dec 28, 2017 05:08
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^^^ This, and also the phrase 'purchasee' would mean the person being bought/sold, which in the context of rules about body parts is very possible, but not what was meant.
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Dec 28, 2017 07:21
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Gerund posted:Batted around for a bit and this is what we came up with.
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Dec 28, 2017 07:48
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Just be careful when Kleenex introduces their new arm-shaped tissue paper and start sending reps out.
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Dec 29, 2017 02:11
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Zereth posted:Does the market distinguish between human(and other people), and animals? I think technically the exact opposite: in that the slave trade is justified by the trade of animals, but I can't recall if that is fanon or actually in a book at this point.
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Dec 29, 2017 02:19
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Gerund posted:I think technically the exact opposite: in that the slave trade is justified by the trade of animals, but I can't recall if that is fanon or actually in a book at this point. ... I think, the "purchaser" part was, as noted, very confusing. EDIT: Also, "The selling shall be done at the moment of sale" sounds like it's supposed to mean something, but doesn't.
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Dec 29, 2017 05:48
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Going to be a delay in the Wraith data - revisiting early sources for causes of death is a slow-ish process, and holiday visits etc have been eating more of my time than expected, which is really nice.
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Dec 29, 2017 06:21
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Zereth posted:My point was more that if it doesn't, this rule would prohibit the sale of things like beef jerky. While I'm 100% sure that the poo poo I typed up on my phone while at the table with my group is sorta poo poo, my intent was that if you do sell beef jerky you must offer at minimum three samples rather than just the one. My ethos of writing rules for the Goblin Market is that the structure should allow for interesting restrictions to generate story but allow for horrible implications when you see what isn't disallowed; like a wall-jump section in a video game, you importantly lack a floor of common decency but still have a way to safely get to your goal. A market with no rules just fuckery is going to be hand-waved or avoided by the game.
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Dec 29, 2017 18:49
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http://onlysp.com/white-wolf-original-world-of-darkness/quote:When embarking on the effort to bring the World of Darkness back to video games, the IP owners were faced with the tough decision of which universe to focus their efforts on. Bolded for 
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Dec 29, 2017 20:30
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Social commentary from people who idolize early to mid run White Wolf, oh boy!
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Dec 29, 2017 20:56
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Yep, the nWoD definitely doesn't have crazy ideas or passion or chaos or even social commentary. No siree.
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Dec 29, 2017 21:19
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Some of those qualifiers are pretty dumb but the nWoD is definitely less gonzo than the oWoD.
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Dec 29, 2017 21:24
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I would say less gonzo on average but occasionally peaking harder. Like, the God-Machine as an actual, physical machine which overlaps with the entire planet and manipulates everything for unknown and possibly no ends at all, complete with summoning robotic angels from nowhere and caching timelines in large boxes under Seattle? Yeah I'm gonna say that beats out even the Cathedral of Flesh.
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Dec 29, 2017 21:27
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Mors Rattus posted:I would say less gonzo on average but occasionally peaking harder. Like, the God-Machine as an actual, physical machine which overlaps with the entire planet and manipulates everything for unknown and possibly no ends at all, complete with summoning robotic angels from nowhere and caching timelines in large boxes under Seattle? How is that gonzo? Nobody had grungy sex with anybody, like, at all?
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Dec 29, 2017 21:28
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as soon as the Scion 2e editing pass is done the full text is getting released to backers! I may actually have game to run in a couple of weeks
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Dec 29, 2017 21:31
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Rand Brittain posted:How is that gonzo? Nobody had grungy sex with anybody, like, at all? It dates a chicken and fires itself out of a cannon.
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Dec 29, 2017 21:35
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in the oWoD, the Christian God canonically exists and created vampires in a fit of pique, werewolves are fascist planeteers, mages' powers basically run on The Secret, and so on it's got a certain flavor which both lends itself to being offensive sometimes but also to a kind of blunt directness that can be funny or refreshing other times, because it's always willing to "go there" so to speak like if nWoD lines were oWoD lines but with the same premise, Changeling would emphasize the ufology factor 10x more, Prometheans would all be clumsy LGBT stereotypes, and the God-Machine would use the Catholic Church as infrastructure
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Dec 29, 2017 21:42
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ultimately I prefer the nWoD because the oWoD's excesses are gross far more often than they're amusing, but to pick out one exception I'd take oVampire's premise over nVampire's any day
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Dec 29, 2017 21:44
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I really like oWolf's Gaia mythos, but it completely falls apart or gets flat out disgusting whenever it intersects with real world history, so I can live with the nWolf mythos.
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Dec 29, 2017 21:46
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:ultimately I prefer the nWoD because the oWoD's excesses are gross far more often than they're amusing, but to pick out one exception I'd take oVampire's premise over nVampire's any day On the other hand, for my money, I'm a lot less charged up by tracing vampiric lineages back to pseudo-Biblical genealogies emerging from the mythological curse of a single man than I am by tracing them to the blood of gods, cursed deals with shadows, and a bladed thing in a cave in a time before language.
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Dec 29, 2017 21:53
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Do the Sabbat rule anything? One of their goals is tearing down or abandoning the Masquerade and just ruling over humanity, right? So how come they haven't pulled it off, even in some isolated place? Does the Camarilla send forces out to fight them on every front?
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Dec 29, 2017 22:05
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I think they ruled an area in 1st edition Australia. It was the city with the red talon drug dealer, because they were his supplier.
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Dec 29, 2017 22:10
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nofather posted:Do the Sabbat rule anything?
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Dec 29, 2017 22:13
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So is it a matter of everyone in Mexico City and a part of Australia knowing that vampires (or at least supernatural monsters) exist and rule them?
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Dec 29, 2017 22:16
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nofather posted:Do the Sabbat rule anything? One of their goals is tearing down or abandoning the Masquerade and just ruling over humanity, right? So how come they haven't pulled it off, even in some isolated place? Does the Camarilla send forces out to fight them on every front? Didn't the old fluff say they owned like, all of Canada and Mexico? I would like that just to see some elder in the northern territories screaming 'I AM THE LORD OF THE NIGHT!' at a very confused moose.
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Dec 29, 2017 22:17
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oWoD is dumber and on the average more offensive than the nWoD, but it is not weirder. In many ways it is more predictable and its parts easier to categorize.
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Dec 29, 2017 22:21
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Night10194 posted:Didn't the old fluff say they owned like, all of Canada and Mexico? Moose. Ghouls.
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Dec 29, 2017 22:29
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Sadly, IIRC, didn't they decide that instead, loving Canada was home to the edgiest motherfuckers they could find, like, Montreal had stuff involving blood-filled glass dildos?
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Dec 29, 2017 22:31
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Mors Rattus posted:Sadly, IIRC, didn't they decide that instead, loving Canada was home to the edgiest motherfuckers they could find, like, Montreal had stuff involving blood-filled glass dildos? Which book is Swastika McNaziBoobs from?
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Dec 29, 2017 22:33
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