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I think we need to replace this thread. It is... unwell. Edit: By which I mean the Mysterious Post Eater stalks the thread. The Lone Badger fucked around with this message at 06:35 on Jan 1, 2018 |
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Jan 1, 2018 06:02
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Haha. I think my post was approximately "Fair enough, I don't remember the specific lore of the chip. Guess that makes it a mistake rather than an accident, but the feasibility of the plan doesn't turn on the intent so no matter."
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Jan 1, 2018 06:04
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The Lone Badger posted:The Chip was made for the post-apocalypse. House knew war was coming, that's why he had a private army of robots built. I think the point still stands: House has proved himself to be preturnaturally good at playing the long game / being a narrowly-focused administrator. But what kind of leader would be be ON THE MOOOOOOOON? The NCR and Legion are well-defined; if they win, you're going to have more of what they already are. But House has been obsessively focused on a single set of goals: protect Vegas' independence, by any means necessary. What kind of leader would he be if given a blank slate? What kind of society would he foster? I don't know if a hands-off hypercapitalist state would work when trying to set up a lunar colony. Basically, I agree with the point that we have no idea what kind of person House really would be if taken out of the confines of the Vegas strip. Going full-on megalomaniac isn't that much of a stretch. He stays reasonable because being a despot would be bad for business. When he's the only business in town? Dunno, man. On a side note, maybe I'll try a Yes Man run, this time ... can you peacefully coexist with other factions, that way?
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Jan 1, 2018 16:11
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null_pointer posted:On a side note, maybe I'll try a Yes Man run, this time ... can you peacefully coexist with other factions, that way? Basically everyone but House, who happens to be in the way, and the Legion, who will try to exterminate you after long enough helping anyone else because you're helping anyone else - which is just fine, really, because the Legion deserves everything they get, and by their own ideology no less. Fun fact: if you stick with NCR long enough to broker peace with the Brotherhood of Steel, then go Wild Card, the Brotherhood gets no ending slide at all.
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Jan 1, 2018 16:19
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No matter what faction you pick, it's possible to talk down Lanius by arguing that the Legion will spread itself too thin by expanding into the east, ensuring a withdrawal by legion forces and (common sense conclusion here) effectively a ceasefire between them and your faction storywise. Every ending but the one where the Legion capture the dam ends with the Legion breaking apart within a few years of Caesar's death, though. If you wanted to argue in the Legion's favor, it was always going to break apart even if they conquered the dam and the rest of america, just as the real roman empire did. From there you'd have a continent of civil nation-states interacting peacefully with a [formerly] unified base culture. If it werent for Fallout 3 and Fallout 4 establishing the northeast as "pretty much the same as pre-bombs, just filthier and with Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 16:48 on Jan 1, 2018 |
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Jan 1, 2018 16:45
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Neurolimal posted:If you wanted to argue in the Legion's favor, it was always going to break apart even if they conquered the dam and the rest of america, just as the real roman empire did. From there you'd have a continent of civil nation-states interacting peacefully with a [formerly] unified base culture. If it werent for Fallout 3 and Fallout 4 establishing the northeast as "pretty much the same as pre-bombs, just filthier and with Why do people feel the need to defend the warband built on a foundation of slavery and rape.
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Jan 1, 2018 16:59
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dont be mean to me posted:Why do people feel the need to defend the warband built on a foundation of slavery and rape. I've actually never played a Legion run of NV despite doing all the others, I just think it's interesting in a what-if way. The first time they lost at the Dam their conquest was halted and the empire was thrown into doubt, it's obvious that they need expansion to focus on to survive, like a wildfire.
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Jan 1, 2018 17:03
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Okay, so I keep getting a black screen and crash whenever I start this game. I've tried: -Uninstalling all mods via NMM -Reinstalling the game via Steam -Restarting Steam -Restarting computer -Disabling the intro video via Fallout 4 config tool -Setting high CPU priority via Fallout 4 config tool -Drinking Has anyone else had this issue or knows what is causing this and what to do here?
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Jan 1, 2018 18:35
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dont be mean to me posted:Why do people feel the need to defend the warband built on a foundation of slavery and rape. From JESawyer "Breeding issues are pretty huge in cultures that took a big step back from infant mortality progress made in the last 100-200 years. Prior to the last few centuries, infant mortality was often around 50%-ish. Child mortality (prior to age 12) was about 60%. Those are pretty awful odds of reaching adulthood. Remember that Caesar's Legion is basically a roving army that continually breaks down and absorbs tribes that it conquers. That can only go on for so long, and Legionaries who are indoctrinated from birth are even more loyal than adolescents who are integrated. Breeding new generations of Legionaries is vital for the Legion's continued existence. Even though breeding is incredibly important in the Legion, there isn't any concept of family outside of the Legion's structure. All of the places where the player encounters the Legion are forward camps where direct military service is given the most weight and is of the most immediate importance. Because only males are involved in that service, they look down upon females even though it's incredibly short-sighted. The additional Legion locations would have had more traveling non-Legion residents of Legion territories. The Fort and Cottonwood Cove made sense as heavy military outposts where the vast majority of the population consisted of soldiers and slaves. The other locations would have had more "civilians". It's not accurate to think of them as citizens of the Legion (the Legion is purely military), but as non-tribal people who live in areas under Legion control. While Caesar intentionally enslaves NCR and Mojave residents in the war zone, most of the enslavement that happens in the east happens to tribals. As Raul indicates, there are non-tribal communities that came under Legion control a long time ago. The additional locations would have shown what life is like for those people. The general tone would have been what you would expect from life under a stable military dictatorship facing no internal resistance: the majority of people enjoy safe and productive lives (more than they had prior to the Legion's arrival) but have no freedoms, rights, or say in what happens in their communities. Water and power flow consistently, food is adequate, travel is safe, and occasionally someone steps afoul of a legionary and gets his or her head cut off. If the Legion tells someone to do something, they only ask once -- even if that means an entire community has to pick up and move fifty miles away. Corruption within the Legion is rare and Caesar deals with it harshly (even by Legion standards). In short, residents of Legion territories aren't really citizens and they aren't slaves, but they're also not free. People who keep their mouths shut, go about their business, and nod at the rare requests the Legion makes of them -- they can live very well. Many of them don't care at all that they don't have a say in what happens around them (mostly because they felt they never had a say in it before the Legion came, anyway).[7]" Outside of the Legion military, doesn't sound like slavery is the order of the day, also comments about "Officer's Wives" would imply that the status of female slaves in the Legion are more complicated than the "breeding stock" stereotypes would imply. I would estimate it works like this Men and Women in the Legion itself: Male slaves are soldiers or laborers, female slaves are laborers/wives of the higher-ranking legionaries. Men and women in the Legion territory: left alone, live traditional social structures, just have to listen to the Legion officers. have kids culled occasionally for Legionaries.
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Jan 1, 2018 19:02
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dont be mean to me posted:Why do people feel the need to defend the warband built on a foundation of slavery and rape. Because this is what European and western society was built on. By admitting it's awful, you're admitting your own motherland/fatherland is also just as if not more awful. So people try to double down to avoid any feelings of societal guilt. As opposed to acknowledging and moving forward.
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Jan 1, 2018 20:15
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Nasgate posted:Because this is what European and western society was built on. By admitting it's awful, you're admitting your own motherland/fatherland is also just as if not more awful. So people try to double down to avoid any feelings of societal guilt. As opposed to acknowledging and moving forward. "Just call it bad and move on" is a pretty ignorant way to approach history. Digging into the motivations of a 'bad' society doesn't mean you're praising them, any more than a coroner is worshiping their autopsy specimen. The ugly reality isn't "our history is bad and we're scared of saying that", it's "the bad things that happened in history were done by human beings, who in some way or another thought they were right in a way we also may have believed, and that's terrifying". Terrifying enough that it's worth examining and simulating to discover the base motivations abd influences that cause those situations, to avoid them. Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 20:29 on Jan 1, 2018 |
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Jan 1, 2018 20:26
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Nasgate posted:Because this is what European and western society was built on. By admitting it's awful, you're admitting your own motherland/fatherland is also just as if not more awful. So people try to double down to avoid any feelings of societal guilt. As opposed to acknowledging and moving forward. This is about the opposite of the correct answer. Every agricultural pre-industrial civilization operated this way, and the ones in South and East Asia were larger scale and older than the European ones so if you're trying to measure injustice weiners then they have the king dongs.
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Jan 1, 2018 20:27
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Seashell Salesman posted:This is about the opposite of the correct answer. Every agricultural pre-industrial civilization operated this way, and the ones in South and East Asia were larger scale and older than the European ones so if you're trying to measure injustice weiners then they have the king dongs. Yeah this is what's funny about the whole NCR vs Legion thing, the NCR may be spread thin on the frontier but they are an industrial economy: mass agriculture, mass production, building aircraft, refining fuel. It's pretty obvious that even though they're doing things the hard way they're also the faction destined to take over and consolidate huge areas. I mean, by the time of NV they basically already have.
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Jan 1, 2018 20:44
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shovelbum posted:Yeah this is what's funny about the whole NCR vs Legion thing, the NCR may be spread thin on the frontier but they are an industrial economy: mass agriculture, mass production, building aircraft, refining fuel. It's pretty obvious that even though they're doing things the hard way they're also the faction destined to take over and consolidate huge areas. I mean, by the time of NV they basically already have. The main issue the NCR has by NV's time (depending on who's lore we're going to go with) they are also beset by corruption - to use Caesar's own words, they are becoming fat and soft as their technological and social progress becomes more and more like Pre-War society and they're starting to face the same problems as they did in 2077. The political infighting, inefficient bureaucracy, flagging economy and constant distractions are what are holding the NCR back. Caesar's Legion on the other hand has one man deciding the direction everyone will be moving in but doesn't have the resources, skills or technology of the NCR. They both have their strengths and weaknesses to even things out. Another thing holding the NCR back is instead of using the resistance in the East as a catalyst to band together and accomplish something great it is instead making matters worse and Caesar is hoping to capitalize on that. Hoping a defeat in Nevada helps the NCR splinter apart, leaving California open to invasion. He's presented as the 'evil' option (and he is, though House IMO is just as evil, just in a much more insidious manner) but he's more of a means to an end kind of guy. He wants to solidify his great society before he kicks the bucket and his successor inevitably fucks everything up because he didn't have the same vision. The Fallout 4 BOS are quite similar in a way. They are trying to fix/tame the wasteland but they're using the inhabitants as tools to this end rather than something they want to protect. Unfortunately the rest of their backstory is about as deep as a puddle so this is often lost and they come across as just power hungry dicks. The other factions get it worse; the Institute is just evil for the sake of being evil, the Railroad has no reason to exist and the Minutemen are a totally blank slate you can't do anything with. God - for a world so rich in detail and fun to pick through I wish the Bethesda team put half as much effort into writing a bloody story to go along with it. Psychotic Weasel fucked around with this message at 21:25 on Jan 1, 2018 |
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Jan 1, 2018 21:21
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Psychotic Weasel posted:The main issue the NCR has by NV's time (depending on who's lore we're going to go with) they are also beset by corruption - to use Caesar's own words, they are becoming fat and soft as their technological and social progress becomes more and more like Pre-War society and they're starting to face the same problems as they did in 2077. The political infighting, inefficient bureaucracy, flagging economy and constant distractions are what are holding the NCR back. Caesar's Legion on the other hand has one man deciding the direction everyone will be moving in but doesn't have the resources, skills or technology of the NCR. They both have their strengths and weaknesses to even things out. Caesar definitely brings all that stuff up but he is either deliberately confusing the issue or just naive. All of that stuff is a feature of the information processing/decision making/error correcting process we call politics, not a bug. The NCR is long term stable because it's a system, Caesar reckons he's an Oracle that can just _know_ what the correct thing to do is in any given situation and that is unstable.
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Jan 1, 2018 21:33
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Seashell Salesman posted:Caesar definitely brings all that stuff up but he is either deliberately confusing the issue or just naive. All of that stuff is a feature of the information processing/decision making/error correcting process we call politics, not a bug. The NCR is long term stable because it's a system, Caesar reckons he's an Oracle that can just _know_ what the correct thing to do is in any given situation and that is unstable. The other thing is that no amount of VISION can overrun even a corrupt and half assed industrial state, the difference in scope and scale of the resources of every type at hand is tremendous. It's like a Mongol horde beefed up with some lever guns and hand grenades against modern India.
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Jan 1, 2018 21:42
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It's kinda crazy how the Minutemen are effectively the Yes Man option of F4. Like, being the general of a slowly growing army should feel different than working solo with a wise-cracking Dave Foley but your troops are such a non-entity that outside of the Castle mission there's basically no difference between joining them or not. It's all just you walking around single-handedly defending a bunch of settlements anyway. The Railroad's stated mission of saving synths is pretty naive, but if you join up by saying their mission statement is stupid Deacon takes a lot more sensible approach of "hey, we're the only ones fighting the Institute right now, help us gather more intel to gently caress them up." Plus they're like the only faction where a majority of the missions aren't just radiant dungeon garbage which is another huge point in their favor. The BoS are straight-up fascists under Maxson who are definitely going to start purging any nearby ghoul settlements, any remaining synths and anyone who dissents shortly after they finish off the Institute. That kind of hardcore authoritarian society can't really function without an enemy to fight, and if Maxson was willing to let his childhood friends die for the sake of BoS unity then he's not gonna think twice about burning Goodneighbor/etc to the ground. Wolfsheim fucked around with this message at 21:52 on Jan 1, 2018 |
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Jan 1, 2018 21:49
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I went Minutemen my first playthrough because all the factions seemed completely idiotic and the game seemed like a fun straight open world FPS but the story held up just fine. All of the factions are just so awful, cripes. Especially the Institute, wtf
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Jan 1, 2018 21:51
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the railroad are my best pals rip high rise
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Jan 1, 2018 22:35
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shovelbum posted:The other thing is that no amount of VISION can overrun even a corrupt and half assed industrial state, the difference in scope and scale of the resources of every type at hand is tremendous. It's like a Mongol horde beefed up with some lever guns and hand grenades against modern India. I don't recall if anything in the game ever went into more detail on what, exactly, the Legion had to work with but it sounded like they had a lot of cannon fodder at their disposal if nothing else. Whatever they were doing it was enough to give the NCR a run for their money (nonsensical or not). I would say the main problem with Caesar's plan itself was more that he was trying to do inside a decade what the actual Romans had ~7 centuries to accomplish and you clearly aren't going to reform a bunch of tribals and scared dirt farmers that quickly and have them build a solid base for your country. Their opponent on the other hand - between end end of the original Fallout, when the NCR is founded, and NV - have had over 120 years to grow. And in that time they'd really only secured California itself and a few territories beyond. Throughout the entire game the fall of the Legion was foretold by just about every knowledgeable person you ran into. Not out of a misplaced sense of nationalist pride either, moreso they knew the flame that burns twice as bright burns half as long; there was no way for them to keep up the momentum. Berke Negri posted:the railroad are my best pals
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Jan 1, 2018 22:36
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Kind of disappointed that Bethesda didn't continue anything from NV, since Dead Money established that a Brotherhood splinter that wanted to be more active in the wasteland existed, and they would have been a good choice for FO4's (down to being small enough to have a Big Bad Leader ala Maxson).
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Jan 1, 2018 22:37
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shovelbum posted:The other thing is that no amount of VISION can overrun even a corrupt and half assed industrial state, the difference in scope and scale of the resources of every type at hand is tremendous. It's like a Mongol horde beefed up with some lever guns and hand grenades against modern India. The problem the NCR faces is that it is stretched too thin and can't concentrate on the Mojave like it should be. Chief Hanlon mentions the war in the Mojave is incredibly unpopular and so the Senate refuses to fund it properly, and the majority of NCR citizens' only connection with it is that their family members get drafted and die in it. A modern industrialized state can still lose a war if it can't allocate all those resources properly. Meanwhile the Legion is throwing everything it has at the Mojave and is willing to use heinous tactics (child suicide bombers, eradicating entire towns) to win, which the NCR isn't. War = willpower x resources, if either hits 0 you lose, and the NCR's willpower is getting close to that. Without the Courier, the NCR is hanging by a thread, with zero allies and lots of people mad at them. Without any courier intervention on either side, the Legion wins.
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Jan 1, 2018 22:48
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Ensign Expendable posted:Oh boy, time to discuss the critically acclaimed cellphone game "Fallout Shelter" I think the quest system and wasteland "random encounter" system that went along with it added a lot of depth to the game, provided neat ways to get some of the pay-for content like pets and Mr. Handys, and provided some incentive to actually keep a strong armory on more than the top two-three floors of your vault to deal with Deathclaws. Overall a worthwhile addition to what started out as a simple clicker game, and if they want to have a cellphone game feeding bonuses into Fallout: Whatever The Next One Is, it's an excellent base to build on.
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Jan 1, 2018 22:52
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shovelbum posted:I went Minutemen my first playthrough because all the factions seemed completely idiotic and the game seemed like a fun straight open world FPS but the story held up just fine. All of the factions are just so awful, cripes. Especially the Institute, wtf I stopped doing Minutemen quests because every one of them adds a new settlement, which I then have to go and do poo poo for.
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Jan 1, 2018 22:59
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just lmao if you don't have all 37 settlements unlocked with 30 settlers a piece at each pumping up 1500 units of purified water everyday just so crazy Myrna can still give you poo poo
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Jan 1, 2018 23:03
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Berke Negri posted:just lmao if you don't have all 37 settlements unlocked with 30 settlers a piece at each pumping up 1500 units of purified water everyday just so crazy Myrna can still give you poo poo And here I thought Bethesda wanted Fallout to have nothing more to do with California 
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Jan 1, 2018 23:52
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Is there any benefit to having a shitload of settlements unlocked in F4? Like, what was the point? It's not like having a ton of them give you more of anything, does it? I mean, if I could loving get Supply Lines working, then maybe I would have an interlinked network of settlements, with dudes travelling short distances to deliver food, water, and junk ... ... but food and water doesn't matter if you just cap your growth by turning off the settlement beacon, and I just modded junk items to be weightless soooooooo 
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Jan 2, 2018 01:03
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yes if you mod junk to be weightless, console yourself a billion caps, and don't like building settlements then there's probably not much for you to get out of settlements
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Jan 2, 2018 04:40
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Supply lines seem to be working fine for me. All my poo poo teleports instantly between workshops, even though I only really use Sanctuary.
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Jan 2, 2018 05:36
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Crazy Joe Wilson posted:From JESawyer That seems.... dumb? Like military states having low corruption is pretty silly. "At least the trains run on time" wasn't actually true after all.
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Jan 2, 2018 08:45
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yeah there's really no upside to the legion besides wanting to play a truly evil unpalatable courier, even with (unreleased but discussed) details about how legion society worked its still p much super bad so that is one way fallout 4 was better than FNV is that you still have goons not getting why the institute was so monstrous even though being worse than the legion
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Jan 2, 2018 12:46
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i mean, besides the goons all these years later trying to justify how poo poo one sided the legion was as a choice edit: Wow poo poo...rape camps, crucifixions, danny trejo VO whose character is super unreliable tells me the trains, which they dont have, run on time, hate gays, sounds pretty swell i guess NCR and them are two sides of one coin Berke Negri fucked around with this message at 12:53 on Jan 2, 2018 |
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Jan 2, 2018 12:49
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Berke Negri posted:edit: Wow poo poo...rape camps, crucifixions, danny trejo VO whose character is super unreliable tells me the trains, which they dont have, run on time, hate gays, sounds pretty swell i guess NCR and them are two sides of one coin How the hell is Raul unreliable? He's a mechanic and marksman whos most shady past was scavenging to provide for his sister. He lived through the bombs and had settled in Arizona for a time. If anything he's the most reliable source for how the east was pre-Caesar. What do you have against Trejo? As for the train japes, the concept of stability vs. freedom isn't exactly alien to the modern world; you have Syria, Libya, Iraq, and Gaza vs. West Bank as examples more topical than WW2. I've only seen one dude defend the institute ITT, everyone elsr knows they're a dumb faction with hackneyed reasons for being bad.
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Jan 2, 2018 13:49
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Neurolimal posted:
really
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Jan 2, 2018 13:56
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Berke Negri posted:really They had no reason to force people to become mutants, no reason to abductband murder people, no reason to draw suspicion on themselves by embedding suspicious figures with robot spines in communities that they were sure would die out eventually anyways, no reason to dump a bunch of prototype synths aggressive to everyone in random buildings, no reason to teleport said terminatorbots randomly towards scouts of a powerful zeppelin-based faction, etcetera etcetera. The only flaw with any nuance or depth is the 'slavery is wrong' bit that the player can disagree with (being the new Father of the institute) with the antagonist being AOK with that disagreement. It's as tepid an appeal to decency as Shaun being a tepid appeal to emotion. Their objectively bad existence is entirely related to unexplained cackling villainy.
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Jan 2, 2018 14:03
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Neurolimal posted:They had no reason to force people to become mutants, no reason to abductband murder people, no reason to draw suspicion on themselves by embedding suspicious figures with robot spines in communities that they were sure would die out eventually anyways, no reason to dump a bunch of prototype synths aggressive to everyone in random buildings, no reason to teleport said terminatorbots randomly towards scouts of a powerful zeppelin-based faction, etcetera etcetera. And yet a lot of posters in this thread have struggled with this
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Jan 2, 2018 14:05
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Yeah, the institute is poo poo. But has there been a lot of posters that have been like : is the institute really poo poo? Yes. Probably in more nuanced terms than in FNV , well you see, the rape camps are good for
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Jan 2, 2018 14:08
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Another way to think about it is the Institute is clearly bad but was done in such a way where i had many friends think well, maybe good or ill, i can turn them around No one went into FNV besides the people that played it like 500 hours and read all of ropekids posts would have been like like you, first or even third run, im going legion by the time they hit nipton or searchlight
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Jan 2, 2018 14:19
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Berke Negri posted:Another way to think about it is the Institute is clearly bad but was done in such a way where i had many friends think well, maybe good or ill, i can turn them around ....and the latter is proof that there isn't nuance there? The fact that the Institute is bad for such flimsy reasons is precisely why people think they can be fixed. Because they technically could, if they acted like functionng people. It's like if a killer robot is really nice for 23 hours then goes "MURDER EVERYONE" in the last hour each day; that's not nuance, it's bizarrely nonsensical. E: for the record this isn't Obsidian fanboyism talking; NV might actually be the gamebryo game I've played the least (because I didnt delve into mods for it), and I still think 4 is Bethesda's best written game, as backhanded a compliment that may sound. I considered the legion more complicated on my first run, admittedly because Raul was my companion of choice. Neurolimal fucked around with this message at 14:41 on Jan 2, 2018 |
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Jan 2, 2018 14:36
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Neurolimal posted:....and the latter is proof that there isn't nuance there? There is no reason to think the Institute can be fixed beyond the players own thoughts, much like a legion run. Like yeah you can do a legion run and tell yourself in FNV everything worked out alright but there's not a lot backing that up.
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Jan 2, 2018 14:43
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