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I don't think it's unthinkable to say that when one part of a film's plot has a character trying to save his mother from forced servitude, and another part has thousands of people in a similar condition of forced servitude which is being covered up by the nominally moral organization the first character belongs to, it's more likely to be saying that the organization is hypocritical than that the condition of forced servitude is good. For a more blatant version of Attack Of The Clones, see Valerian And The City Of A Thousand Planets, which much like AOTC portrays a democratic, pluralistic government as complicit in covering up atrocities. Unlike AOTC, Ethan Hawke plays a neon cowboy pimp. Whether that would have made AOTC better or worse, I can't say.
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Jan 2, 2018 03:57
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PostNouveau posted:That's true, but the "from my view, the Jedi are the bad guys" comes out of the mouth of Darth Vader, so maybe that's not really the point of view of the film. No, they're not the bad guys. But the point is that they're being led astray, by their worldly attachments, into doing bad things, just like Anakin. The fall of the Jedi, of the Republic, and of Anakin Skywalker are all parallel arcs. You want it straight from the mouth of George Lucas? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEET8IdkRnY&t=350s George Lucas posted:The Jedi are always sort of fighting the reality of the fact that they are in essence diplomats; they sort of persuade people to do the right thing. They're job isn't really to go around fighting people, yet they're now used as generals and they're fighting a war and they're doing something they really weren't meant to do. They're being corrupted by this war, by being forced to be generals instead of peacemakers. This is a pretty overt theme of the films. Yoda openly voices his concerns about the Jedi's growing arrogance. The Jedi librarian absolutely refuses to acknowledge that there could be an error in the Jedi archives. A humble diner owner effortlessly succeeds where the droid-reliant Jedi archives fail and has to explain to Obi-Wan the difference between simple knowledge and true wisdom. Despite being peacemakers and diplomats, they allow themselves to become generals of an army of mass-conditioned clones who've had their individuality and humanity scientifically repressed. The Jedi later hatch a plot to unilaterally overthrow the chancellor and take control of the senate, a line of thinking Yoda again points out is a very dark one. Mace tries to outright murder someone he believes to be a helpless and defeated assailant, simply because he doesn't trust the organs of democracy to adequately deal with him. There's this moment:  That's Yoda with Sith lightning in his eyes. He's been losing the fight because the dark side will always be more physically powerful than the light side. So Yoda chooses to emulate Sidious. And it works. He knocks Sidious back. But Yoda gets knocked back too, and he falls much farther than Sidious, simply because, as a servant of the light, he has much farther to fall.   That's the moment when he realizes that this is what's been happening to the Jedi all along. They've been fighting a war they can't win. The only way to win, Yoda realizes, is to stop fighting. To stop playing by the Sith's rules. It's the same realization Luke makes on the second Death Star twenty-three years later. (By the way, this is how you do visual metaphor.) None of this is that subtle. It's really not the movie's problem you didn't get it. Cnut the Great fucked around with this message at 05:45 on Jan 2, 2018 |
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Jan 2, 2018 03:57
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PostNouveau posted:Yo man, droid slavery is not the main point of Star Wars. Ain't no way no how. Preposterous. wait so now the criteria is "main point"?
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Jan 2, 2018 03:57
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PostNouveau posted:Yo man, droid slavery is not the main point of Star Wars. Ain't no way no how. Preposterous. Most movies are about many things.
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Jan 2, 2018 03:59
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PostNouveau posted:Nah, the armies are just props. I mean you can characterize the final battle as a huge clash between two slave armies, but the film clearly does not consider that the case. These things exist in the film, but they're just tossed off or in the background. I checked that screenshots link in case I was misremembering the film, but no, there the slaves are in the foreground of lots of shots throughout the movie.
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Jan 2, 2018 03:59
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PostNouveau posted:Nah, the armies are just props. I mean you can characterize the final battle as a huge clash between two slave armies, but the film clearly does not consider that the case. These things exist in the film, but they're just tossed off or in the background. Obiwan, Anakin and Padme spend significant portions of the film in the people-factories where the slaves are produced. Obi-wan is read a sales pitch. C-3PO is astonished by it's perversity. These scenes are not in the background. On the contrary, the scenes with Anakin and Padme in particular have often been criticized for being too much in the foreground.
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Jan 2, 2018 03:59
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I Before E posted:Unlike AOTC, Ethan Hawke plays a neon cowboy pimp. Whether that would have made AOTC better or worse, I can't say. I mean, obviously better. Serf posted:wait so now the criteria is "main point"? Yeah that's what we were arguing about.
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Jan 2, 2018 04:00
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also the battle scene in aotc is awesome. the clones come coptering in like a loving vietnam movie, droids come out to meet them and the dust gets kicked up, obscuring both sides. the movie contrasts the clone facility with the droid foundry as well. its just fantastic
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Jan 2, 2018 04:00
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PostNouveau posted:Yo man, droid slavery is not the main point of Star Wars. Ain't no way no how. Preposterous. I don’t know what else anyway can say that hasn’t been said already but these are things that happen on screen—that are depicted on screen What else can a movie do aside from show things. I don’t know what it would take for you to think slavery is a major motif in a movie if you are rejecting it as one in a franchise with an actual literal slave as a primary character
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Jan 2, 2018 04:01
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Serf posted:also the battle scene in aotc is awesome. the clones come coptering in like a loving vietnam movie, droids come out to meet them and the dust gets kicked up, obscuring both sides. the movie contrasts the clone facility with the droid foundry as well. its just fantastic Yeah that battle's pretty dope.
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Jan 2, 2018 04:02
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thrawn527 posted:16 bit spoilers for TLJ. Even in the title, which is why I didn’t embed it. E: "The Spark" on the OST. Lord Hydronium fucked around with this message at 04:12 on Jan 2, 2018 |
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Jan 2, 2018 04:08
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Lord Hydronium posted:The score for that part in the movie is so drat good. Yeah I wasn't a huge fan of the score overall but that piece is fantastic.
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Jan 2, 2018 04:17
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Actually, everyone on both sides of the clone argument is making a gigantic error. The clone army doesn't represent the concept of a slave army as is being argued in this thread. It represents the concept of all armies--all imperialistic armies at any rate. The clones are raised in a society which force-feeds them ideologically-approved information in schools designed for the mass production of loyal nationalistic soldiers. All the individuality is stamped out of them. As a result, the clones willingly and enthusiastically embrace their roles as pawns of the imperial nation-state. The point being made with the clone army isn't to depict some speculative form of sci fi slavery. It's pure metaphor. The purpose is to hold up a mirror to the workings of our own highly militarized and nationalistic society, which many of us, just like the Jedi, never even think to question the fundamental moral soundness of. The future society on Kamino is the logical endpoint of our own current society (just as was the very similar future society depicted in THX 1138.) The basic point is this: The clones are slaves only to the extent that any voluntary enlistee of the United States military is a slave. Which is to say, they are. But it's a kind of slavery which we can't condemn without fully morally implicating ourselves. We destroy the souls of our children, we warp and twist their minds, and then we send them out to oppress and kill, and ultimately to die. And we call it voluntary, and we lionize them as heroes in order to mask our culpability in their victimization. The imagery on Kamino is all highly symbolic, and highly socially and politically charged. It's probably one of the most radical and subversive sequences in the entire series:        A microcosm of society. From cradle to white armor coffin. Homogenized schools designed to produce uncritical drones. Bowls full of colorless nothing, lacking sustenance. Patiently standing in a line for your turn to trade in your human face for the obliterating mask of the fascist collective.The authoritarian state looming over and controlling everything. Cnut the Great fucked around with this message at 05:02 on Jan 2, 2018 |
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Jan 2, 2018 04:55
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The clones are explicitly stated to not be simply a product of their upbringing, though. Their physical (genetic) construction/modification is highlighted deliberately. It is an essential piece of the formula. Neither is there a visible indication that they "enthusiastically embrace their roles", in stark contrast to Boba, Jango and Obi-Wan, who love this poo poo. The clone in the shot you posted is not a happy bunny as he glances up at his owners.
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Jan 2, 2018 05:14
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Wild Horses posted:I have ”good film opinion”; jerk me off this but unironically
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Jan 2, 2018 05:17
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sassassin posted:The clones are explicitly stated to not be simply a product of their upbringing, though. Their physical (genetic) construction/modification is highlighted deliberately. It is an essential piece of the formula. Yes, that's an extrapolation of our current trajectory. Scientifically-enforced conformity is part and parcel with socially-enforced conformity. These clones are subject to both. They're two methods to the same end. It's a commentary on our society losing touch with its (genuinely) spiritual side and growing increasingly more materialistic and scientistic. These movies aren't about things that don't apply directly to the world we live in. The looming advent of mass genetic manipulation won't change the fundamental issues at hand; it'll just change the modality. quote:Neither is there a visible indication that they "enthusiastically embrace their roles", in stark contrast to Boba, Jango and Obi-Wan, who love this poo poo. The clone in the shot you posted is not a happy bunny as he glances up at his owners. You're reading that shot exactly backwards. He's one single clone among many who expresses even a hint of discontent. It's a solitary and ultimately impotent glimmer of humanity, a testament to the fact that these are men and the Kaminoans can't exercise complete control, despite what they say; there is always the hope for resistance. You can't snuff out the human spirit with science, not entirely. But other than that there's absolutely no indication that most clones object to their situation. A few, of course, do, and if you watch the The Clone Wars you see that their nonconformity is violently dealt with, usually by the other clones (who denounce the dissidents as traitors while making heartfelt appeals to their duty to serve the Republic faithfully). Cnut the Great fucked around with this message at 05:36 on Jan 2, 2018 |
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Jan 2, 2018 05:31
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J_RBG posted:Disappointingly there's not as much adultery in Star Wars. I know, right?
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Jan 2, 2018 05:36
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quote:You can't snuff out the human spirit with science, not entirely. Were there any clones who didn't execute Order 66 besides I guess the ones who physically weren't around any Jedi or younglings?
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Jan 2, 2018 05:43
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I watched R1 the other day and man it really does own but the computer Tarkin and Leia are both just not right somehow. The cool thing I noticed was that when Jyn is looking at the tapes trying to get the death star one, she skips a tape called "Hyperspace Tracking"
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Jan 2, 2018 05:44
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RBA Starblade posted:Were there any clones who didn't execute Order 66 besides I guess the ones who physically weren't around any Jedi or younglings? I think I've heard some of them refused the order and show up in the "Rebels" cartoon
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Jan 2, 2018 05:49
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Rogue 1 is almost the worst Star Wars movie. It has no characters and only archetypes.
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Jan 2, 2018 05:50
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the lucasfilms come close to having cuckoldry in them, at least there's a kinda dynamic between luke and han and then later between anakin and obi wan
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Jan 2, 2018 05:50
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PostNouveau posted:I think I've heard some of them refused the order and show up in the "Rebels" cartoon Oh, I didn't watch any of the cartoons.
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Jan 2, 2018 05:51
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RBA Starblade posted:Were there any clones who didn't execute Order 66 besides I guess the ones who physically weren't around any Jedi or younglings? I haven't watched all of it but I know Rebels follows through on the Order 66 arc in TCW (where Rex learns about the biochips in their head which compel them to obey the order, Manchurian Candidate-style), and reveals that Rex and a group of clones he took into his confidence removed their chips and so managed to escape executing Order 66. I know some people take issue with the revelation that Order 66 is a result of a biochip rather than the clones simply choosing to obey the order because of their conditioning (I've had my own reservations), but at the end of the day it all means the same thing. The biochip is just a sci fi metaphor for ideology. You have to acknowledge it and cut it out. It's not an easy thing to do. A bunch of clones (and Anakin) hear about the biochip but Rex is the only one who believes, because of the experiences he's had and the kind of man he has become. The other clones can't break through their conditioning to accept the truth. There's also a nice parallel to the chip Anakin has in his head in Episode I to control him, and the system of central control exercised over the battle droids in that film. Cnut the Great fucked around with this message at 05:59 on Jan 2, 2018 |
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Jan 2, 2018 05:56
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I think the ultimate mistake of the sequel trilogy is pushing r2d2 and c3p0 to the side. Bb8 doesn't really do the hapless peasent thing they didn
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Jan 2, 2018 06:19
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i was watching esb again and i'm pretty sure han and leia hosed at least once in between the two movies
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Jan 2, 2018 06:20
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They def hosed after rtj
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Jan 2, 2018 06:38
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thats true i just mean their entire dynamic at the start of esb is kinda like trying to establish where they stand after some kind of implied off screen passion
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Jan 2, 2018 06:43
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I got the impression that Han and Leia only had sex the first time after they got to Cloud City, because Leia goes from all white virginal clothing to a gown with a lot of red.
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Jan 2, 2018 06:55
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Wtf is wrong with some of you
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Jan 2, 2018 06:57
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Shiroc posted:I got the impression that Han and Leia only had sex the first time after they got to Cloud City, because Leia goes from all white virginal clothing to a gown with a lot of red. 
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Jan 2, 2018 07:05
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TLJ is a boring bad movie, which is worse than an interesting bad movie.
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Jan 2, 2018 08:41
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But an interesting good movie like TLJ is even better.
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Jan 2, 2018 08:45
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GoldfishStew posted:Rogue 1 is almost the worst Star Wars movie. It has no characters and only archetypes. Uh, if you're going to ding a movie for relying on archetypes, every star wars is the worst star wars
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Jan 2, 2018 09:46
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GoldfishStew posted:Wtf is wrong with some of you pot, kettle I think the red dress symbolism is a good call. Lucas definitely pulled the same poo poo with Padme's bondage clothes.
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Jan 2, 2018 09:54
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Something I liked about TLJ that 16-bit video reminded me of: For a character who died a movie ago, Han's presence is felt remarkably a lot throughout this one. Characters are continually speaking of him, dealing with his death, dealing with killing him (in Kylo's case). And it always feels like it's in a way appropriate for the characters, not just "Hey, remember Han?" People die a lot in Star Wars, and the movies deal with the aftermath in every way from glossing over it, to motivating characters positively, to driving them into darkness. In TLJ, most of the characters react to Han's death by mourning him, but also letting go and moving on (even the illusory dice fade away). Except Kylo: the man who killed Han is the only one who can't get past it. I really like Luke's line "I'll always be with you, just like your father", because it starts off sounding like a repeat of Obi-Wan's threat, but then halfway through becomes more about grief, loss, and the effects of killing in general, as well as a solid comment on Kylo Ren's character. Anyway, I don't want to make too much of this or act like it's some deep observation; it's more of a little thing I enjoyed in a movie full of many of them. Lord Hydronium fucked around with this message at 10:00 on Jan 2, 2018 |
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Jan 2, 2018 09:56
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I Before E posted:Uh, if you're going to ding a movie for relying on archetypes, every star wars is the worst star wars Seriously, lol.
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Jan 2, 2018 15:07
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I looked up the old "Droid's" cartoon on Youtube. Found out there is an episode titled The Revenge of Kybo Ren. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7h7_d2BUtI I am convinced that Droids is canon.
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Jan 2, 2018 15:36
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SimonCat posted:I looked up the old "Droid's" cartoon on Youtube. Found out there is an episode titled The Revenge of Kybo Ren. Droids (and Ewoks) are in the Legends continuity
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Jan 2, 2018 15:47
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jivjov posted:Droids (and Ewoks) are in the Legends continuity I'm actually not up my Star Wars continuities. I take it that Legends is the old EU?
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Jan 2, 2018 15:53
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