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The White Dragon posted:yeah the fact that the AI is basically unwilling to offer you a white peace until it's lost at least one city is kind of a barrier to entry. AIs also seem to have an artificial willingness to work with each other against the player, in 6 i've seen AIs who sign DoFs with each other even though one of the participants has carved a path of destruction through the other's cities, razed half, and controls their capital. that would never happen in the player's favor. I've been able to just piss around for about twenty turns while they fail to attack me (because they're on a different continent and boats are hard) and white peace out before. Might've been several patches ago at this point, mind. I'm gonna make an analogy about warmongering though. If wars were fistfights and civs were just people, if a cocky 5'9" wiry drunk ran up to a 6'6" beefy man mountain and started continually trying to start a fight with him, and eventually after throwing several punches got decked in response, would you really blame the second dude? Yeah, if he put him in hospital or One Punch Man'd him into the morgue, that'd be different, but past a certain age basically everyone understands that picking a fight with someone bigger and stronger than you is a stupid thing to do and nobody's really going to feel sorry for you when you inevitably get knocked on your rear end. In the same way, a human player will very carefully consider the ramifications of going to war in MP, knowing fully well they stand to lose some or most of their empire if they misjudge their own strength relative to the enemy. To all who defend the AI, try justifying yourself to others in MP the way you try to cover for the AI, "hey you should all hate X forever because I declared war on him and his 14 horsemen while only having four archers myself and then he took two of my cities because I was completely unable to stop him!" They'd laugh at you for being stupid, and then eliminate you and carve up the rest of your land among themselves. The AI's problem is that it has a terrible idea of its own competence and regularly picks fights it cannot win, and it does so against a human, who reacts like a human would. Or grabs a mate and asks them to join in with a fight neither of them can possibly win. We aren't talking about even remotely close wars, here. If you can fend off the attack and still have enough troops left to immediately take a city or two, they misjudged their own offensive strength horribly. If they're going to be so war-happy, why aren't they prepared for others to react the same? It comes off as hypocrisy. I suppose it comes down to whether you expect the AI to play like a player, or to roleplay as historical figures. I tend to view this first and foremost as a game with history-themed characters, and not a simulation. I don't play "in-character" when i choose a civ anymore than I communicate in barking when I choose the dog in Monopoly. The characters are designed to mimic historical traits, and the AI should be designed to maximise their advantage from those traits. A civ with a production bonus should have a bias towards building production buildings and settling in place with lots of hills, both because that's what they're good at and because that's what a human player would probably do. In that sense, by designing the traits well, an AI (and a player) will be guided to roughly mimic the policies and competencies of a historical figure while still providing a decent level of gameplay challenge. The AI is just a substitute for other humans, after all. It's something that could be made vastly more tolerable if they had any interest in expanding and fixing the AI's diplomacy abilities. There's lots of things that human players can arrange or do that make the game more interesting. Selective defensive pacts, for one. You can't say to an AI, "If X declares war on you I'll join in", only "if ANYONE declares war on you I'll join in", which can lead to you fighting other allies. Similarly it's not possible to say to an AI "if you declare war on anyone I'll take their side", or to agree with other AI players that if X starts a war you'll all join in against them. All these things happen in multiplayer. I would've thought that when programming an AI for a game of this type, you look at what test players do in MP and base it off that, but apparently not.
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Dec 31, 2017 13:00
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Warmongering definitely needs to be balanced with your opponents warmongering level. If a civ declares a surprise war on me and takes an egregious warmonger level, I should rack up global 'good-guy' points for liberating their cities from their evil overlord. Or at the very least avoid warmongering penalties. If a civ declares a liberation war against me with good reason, sure label me a warmonger for the rest of eternity when I take control of their cities, I'm clearly being the villain.
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Dec 31, 2017 15:18
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The White Dragon posted:yeah the fact that the AI is basically unwilling to offer you a white peace until it's lost at least one city is kind of a barrier to entry. AIs also seem to have an artificial willingness to work with each other against the player, in 6 i've seen AIs who sign DoFs with each other even though one of the participants has carved a path of destruction through the other's cities, razed half, and controls their capital. that would never happen in the player's favor. This is explicitly the case actually.
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Dec 31, 2017 15:36
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Until the game let's me make a treaty that limits their military levels to ensure there's no future aggression, razing/capping cities will continue to be the best means of ensuring they're not a threat again. As a side, it really feels like unit maintenance prices are way too low. By mid game there is a blanket of units in AI lands, with more on the way. They never upgrade either. =\
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Dec 31, 2017 16:43
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Trivia posted:Until the game let's me make a treaty that limits their military levels to ensure there's no future aggression, razing/capping cities will continue to be the best means of ensuring they're not a threat again. Basically this, or let us force super long unbreakable peace deals when suing for peace. I don't care if they try and stomp someone else.
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Dec 31, 2017 18:40
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Trivia posted:As a side, it really feels like unit maintenance prices are way too low. By mid game there is a blanket of units in AI lands, with more on the way. They never upgrade either. =\ Easily solved by removing ranged attacks and making the losing unit die after every battle, which they never should have gotten away from.
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Dec 31, 2017 19:04
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My enjoyment of playing civ is directly proportional to how easy it is to wardec AIs as soon as you meet them so they stop bothering you with inane diplomacy crap.
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Dec 31, 2017 19:13
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I think the problem is that diplomacy and trade doesn't really exist, and so your only way to really interact with other civilizations is...war. And only war. Except the way it's set up, the social deck is always stacked against the player. In other words, you have no options BUT to war, and going to war even once more or less dooms you to being hated by everyone and now you gotta go to war with them, too. Also it's real "funny" how warmongering penalties only seem to exist for PCs. Motherfucker declared surprise war on me and got their rear end kicked, and yet I'm the one with the warmongering penalty. It's just one of the many ways everything in this game feels like it's constantly pushing you to go to war with all the other civilizations at all costs.
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Dec 31, 2017 22:38
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ProfessorCirno posted:Motherfucker declared surprise war on me and got their rear end kicked, and yet I'm the one with the warmongering penalty. -Israel
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Dec 31, 2017 22:43
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Trivia posted:Until the game let's me make a treaty that limits their military levels to ensure there's no future aggression, razing/capping cities will continue to be the best means of ensuring they're not a threat again. vassalage/capitulation. a civ that's been soundly stomped, but isn't out of the game, can no longer declare war on anyone without their protectorate's permission. i mean, don't get me wrong, i think 5 is great, but that's just another thing 4 got right!
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Dec 31, 2017 23:00
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The White Dragon posted:vassalage/capitulation. a civ that's been soundly stomped, but isn't out of the game, can no longer declare war on anyone without their protectorate's permission. i mean, don't get me wrong, i think 5 is great, but that's just another thing 4 got right! Actually vassalage was pretty terrible in IV. It doesn't really work in a competitive free-for-all game with one winner, which has a ton of emphasis on the victory conditions. The real solution to the problem is to simply dial down the whole warmongering stuff. Seriously, I've tweaked the values in my files a bit and it seems to result in more stable relationships. The outlier is Joint Wars because I haven't totally learned how to mess with those with real consistency yet.
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Dec 31, 2017 23:17
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vassalage doesn't work in mp, but it's great in single player because it places certain restrictions on AIs that stop them from doing the thing leaderheads like montezuma and isabella were famous for where they'll declare a one-sided forever war on you and suicide a swordsman into a combat helicopter every five turns because that's what they're programmed do, except now every AI behaves like this
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Dec 31, 2017 23:22
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It's interesting to see how people interpret this warmongering penalty. A lot of people seem to justify the penalties by saying that if it were happening in real life and not in a game you would be known as a warmongering monster. But it's a game, not real life. A better comparison would be with other board games, like Risk. If another player tried to ineffectually eliminate me, that person would absolutely get on top of my hit list. They've already shown that they're willing to use me as a target, they've weakened themselves with a poorly-timed attack and are probably now open for a counter-attack I can initiate to prevent further attacks from that front. I don't do this because I'm a warmongering monster, I do it because that's how a lot of strategy games go. It also doesn't help that a) the AI can't play Civ 6 and don't pose a threat once you build walls and can't seem to recognize power disparity between you and them, b) once they surrender there's no real way to limit further military production on their end, so you're stuck in a war cycle with that AI and c) there is currently no real benefit from allying with the AI outside of selling extra luxuries for gold and 30 turns of peace, provided you don't upset them in one of a million ways you can, so who cares how they feel about you anyway?
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Dec 31, 2017 23:23
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My biggest issue at the moment is just getting a good, fun starting position. 80% of my games I give up on after 20 minutes because I'm on a tiny island/I'm the only player on a vast continent/there are no hills or mountains anywhere near me/there are no decent expand spots/I'm in a spot that directly undermines my civs abilities.
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Jan 1, 2018 00:51
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Bluff Buster posted:A better comparison would be with other board games, like Risk. Everybody is a warmonger in Risk.
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Jan 1, 2018 02:47
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Today's reveal is the Cree. They have some interesting abilities; grabbing territory with trade routes could be useful, and they get the earliest extra trade route thus far.
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Jan 2, 2018 16:21
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God  is that trader ability cool.
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Jan 2, 2018 16:27
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Poundmaker leads the Cree. Civilization Unique Ability: Nihithaw - +1 Trade Route capacity and a free Trader with the Pottery technology. Unclaimed tiles within 3 tiles of a Cree city come under Cree control when a Trader first moves into them. Leader Unique Ability: Favorable Terms - All Alliance types provide Shared Visibility. Trade Routes grant Poundmaker +1 Food in the sending city per Camp or Pasture in the receiving city. Trade Routes grant Poundmaker +1 Gold in the receiving city per Camp or Pasture in the receiving city. Civilization Unique Unit: Okihtcitaw - Replaces the Scout. Receives a free Promotion and has additional combat strength. Civilization Unique Improvement: Mekewap - Provides Housing and Production, Gold when adjacent to a luxury resource, and Food when adjacent to a bonus resource.
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Jan 2, 2018 16:29
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I missed the free trader. That makes that ability a lot better. Mekewaps are apparently +1 Housing, not .5, too, so that'll be nice. He seems fairly solid. I wonder what his music will sound like as it progresses through the ages.
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Jan 2, 2018 16:38
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I've never heard of the Cree before but a combination of ancient-era start bonuses with massive boosts to trading? Good lord, I think I am going to be very familiar with them from now on.
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Jan 2, 2018 17:21
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Khagan posted:God I love it too. Makes the trade route minigame more worthwhile, to the extent that I wish all civs did that, and the Cree did something better.
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Jan 2, 2018 17:25
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Hogama posted:Poundmaker leads the Cree.
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Jan 2, 2018 17:46
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Poil posted:What the gently caress? "Within 3 tiles of city" is the entire workable area and a shitton of them. And all for free? Instantly with a trader? That's the annoying Shoshone bonus from Civ5 cranked up on steroids. You only get the tiles that the trader goes through. Look at where your roads are: those tiles (and only those tiles) get claimed the first time traders go through them.
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Jan 2, 2018 17:48
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This has been bugging me for a while, but why couldn't they have gotten someone with a cooler voice to do these first looks? We've got all these all these awesome civilizations that have, in one time or another, shaped the course of humanity being introduced by the person you finally get through to on a customer service hotline.
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Jan 2, 2018 17:59
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Poil posted:What the gently caress? "Within 3 tiles of city" is the entire workable area and a shitton of them. And all for free? Instantly with a trader? That's the annoying Shoshone bonus from Civ5 cranked up on steroids. Why would you expect it to be balanced, it's there to sell copies
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Jan 2, 2018 18:02
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It's a bit weirdly worded. It's that any tile within 3 squares of your cities that a trader moves into becomes yours. You don't instantly get every tile. It's still very good.
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Jan 2, 2018 18:58
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Roger Explosion posted:I've never heard of the Cree before but a combination of ancient-era start bonuses with massive boosts to trading? Good lord, I think I am going to be very familiar with them from now on. Really? They're famous enough that they're mentioned in an Iron Maiden song. Maybe it's harder for me to know what's famous and not because of playing Paradox games. Also less of the burning customer service people. She just has a boring voice okay. quote:Why would you expect it to be balanced, it's there to sell copies
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Jan 2, 2018 19:05
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Roger Explosion posted:This has been bugging me for a while, but why couldn't they have gotten someone with a cooler voice to do these first looks? We've got all these all these awesome civilizations that have, in one time or another, shaped the course of humanity being introduced by the person you finally get through to on a customer service hotline. civ 6 got the video announcer that civ 6 deserved, bland and inoffensive and corporate
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Jan 2, 2018 19:12
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I like the Cree addition. Its probably as close as you need to get to a Canada civ. Unless you want to do the Inuit, and do fun things up in the tundra.
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Jan 2, 2018 19:52
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I'm not as confident as I was for Sycthia before launch, but I'm pretty sure Cree are overpowered. The UI is what makes me think this. Production time is a real bottle neck in this game, and extra housing is very powerful before neighborhoods. This UI gives both, has no real placement restrictions and even gets additional adjacentcy bonuses sometimes as well. It's a ridiculous UI. Add a scout that will actually be built to be the first to find CSes, and the ability to cut off areas from your opponents with an early free trade route, and you've even more power added to that.
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Jan 2, 2018 19:53
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A +production, +housing building that you can build anywhere seems ridiculously overpowered if it's anywhere before the tail end of midgame. Unless it has to be next to one kind of resource or the other. Than it's only mostly overpowered. I mean, I already carpet every spare space I can in newgrowth forests with lumbermills as soon as I'm able. This will be worse because it won't even really hold growth back if you have just one good central city to send trade routes to.
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Jan 2, 2018 22:00
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Roger Explosion posted:This has been bugging me for a while, but why couldn't they have gotten someone with a cooler voice to do these first looks? We've got all these all these awesome civilizations that have, in one time or another, shaped the course of humanity being introduced by the person you finally get through to on a customer service hotline. They also have Brazil and Australia, though, so they gotta balance the voice.
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Jan 3, 2018 01:03
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Has every unique improvement added after the base game just added production to otherwise weak tiles? It seems like they're avoiding the chateau/mission sort where they add yields no one wants and are terrible, but it's a shame that that's the only way UI are any good.
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Jan 3, 2018 01:08
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Would have been neat to have Poundmaker and Fine Day in the game at the same time, with bonuses changing depending if you were at war or not. The Cree would have an everyday 'working chief', who ran the nation on a day to day basis and when war-time came, they'd choose a different leader.
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Jan 3, 2018 04:03
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Bluff Buster posted:Has every unique improvement added after the base game just added production to otherwise weak tiles? It seems like they're avoiding the chateau/mission sort where they add yields no one wants and are terrible, but it's a shame that that's the only way UI are any good. Nah. Persia's UI doesn't add production and it's good, and Nubia's UI... Well, I guess it does add production in a way, it's weird. But yeah, the Pairidaeza is what the Chateau should have been; +1 Culture, +2 Gold, and +2 Appeal to surrounding tiles base, +1 Culture with Diplomatic Service, +1 Gold for every adjacent City Center and Commercial Hub, and +1 Culture for every adjacent Theater Square and Holy Site. Plus the usual Tourism equal to Culture when you get Flight. Can't be built on tundra or snow, or next to another Pairidaeza, no restrictions otherwise. It's really useful. I build quite a few of them. Though of the UIs added so far (Outback Station, Nubian Pyramid, Pairidaeza, Kampung, Polder, Mekewap) it is the only one to not give at least a little Production in some situation.
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Jan 3, 2018 06:24
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Goddamit. Civ's been defaulting to my integrated graphics for the last year without me realising. I just assumed it ran like poo poo on my laptop 
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Jan 3, 2018 08:44
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Had a really strange glitch happen. I set up a a game on a huge map, so 12 players and 18ish city states and everything was going fine. I started two city spaces away from my neighbor on one side and the rest was open. I checked the score screen and it only shows 7 players. Now that I've hit the mid game and started exploring the other continent, there are zero city states and I guess only 7 of us spawned in.
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Jan 5, 2018 02:31
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FreeMars posted:Had a really strange glitch happen. I set up a a game on a huge map, so 12 players and 18ish city states and everything was going fine. I started two city spaces away from my neighbor on one side and the rest was open. I checked the score screen and it only shows 7 players. Now that I've hit the mid game and started exploring the other continent, there are zero city states and I guess only 7 of us spawned in. Yeah, that's happened to me before. It sucks. I'd restart- it's a pity you made it all the way to the mid game before noticing.
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Jan 5, 2018 03:57
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I tried getting the Selfie achievement (win a culture victory against the same civ as yourself) as France but got completed schooled in my first try. The second try we both spawned on a small island divided by a mountain range with only 2 small passes in-between and a single city-state. I got a bad start as the barbarians went loving crazy but I didn't get any notifications about the AI building any wonders so I pressed on. When I found the AI it was surrounded by captured settlers and workers and as soon as I hit my second tourist I won the game. I don't understand the map generator, sometimes it generates very many barbarians and the AI really can't handle it. If you want harder opposition from the AI without giving them the ridiculous bonuses the harder difficulties give them try turning barbarians off.
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Jan 5, 2018 10:51
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Roger Explosion posted:This has been bugging me for a while, but why couldn't they have gotten someone with a cooler voice to do these first looks? We've got all these all these awesome civilizations that have, in one time or another, shaped the course of humanity being introduced by the person you finally get through to on a customer service hotline. I have grown to love her.
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Jan 5, 2018 11:05
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