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No but let's talk about quality in software. Not the ill-defined, overly broad problem set described in ZatAoMM. How do you measure software quality? Two words: Customer Satisfaction. How do you predict customer satisfaction during development and in the lead up to release? 1. Is it designed to do what your customers want? (did the leadership team get it right?) 2. Does it run without technical detriments to its design? (did the engineers/qa get it right?) 3. Does it make the customer feel empowered when they use it? (did the product team get it right?) There are very well defined product/market metrics, technical metrics, and user engagement techniques that can accurately predict whether your software will be perceived as poo poo or not. It kind of goes without saying, most software companies don't use any them. e: this is my catte. she is a quality catte. 
Toops fucked around with this message at 18:22 on Jan 2, 2018 |
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Jan 2, 2018 18:02
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Hav posted:One of them. I thought the whole 'quality' rabbit hole was fascinating; like a post hoc fallacy that was self-sustaining. I lack the personal strength to rise above my environment so I'm resigned to laughing at the cognitive dissonances in others and finding a few things worth enjoying. Toops posted:How do you measure software quality? Two words: Customer Satisfaction. The customer not knowing what they want is very zen.
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Jan 2, 2018 18:04
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The misPerception
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Jan 2, 2018 18:07
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I'm up to almost 300 hours on R6: Siege 
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Jan 2, 2018 18:08
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alf_pogs posted:I love eric roberts and think he is well overdue for a sort of tarantino revival piece but he is definitely not the most discerning when it comes to movie choices Eric Roberts is a true professional. You pay him, he does his role, and he'll sell it, even if it's poo poo like "A Talking Cat!?!" http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2511190/ Kind of like Mark Hamill.
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Jan 2, 2018 18:09
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I think I'm gunna join the Diamond Frogs
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Jan 2, 2018 18:10
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Mr.Tophat posted:I think I'm gunna join the Diamond Frogs Might as well my FLJK application has been in processing for years now.
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Jan 2, 2018 18:19
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Montoya is South African? I'm pretty sure you can only swat Americans, so what the gently caress is he going on about?
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Jan 2, 2018 18:19
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Toops posted:I derive subjective enjoyment from the objective, classical dismantling of your subjective enjoyment. You spent ten years _being_ the gently caress. That's commitment. One happy circumstance of 2017 was finally learning how to spell 'Schadenfreude' without looking it up. Next; 'backpfeifengesicht' Bofast posted:Is that the ground combat rework I keep hearing about? If I can't glass them from orbit, what's the point, really?
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Jan 2, 2018 18:20
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XK posted:Montoya is South African? I'm pretty sure you can only swat Americans, so what the gently caress is he going on about? Not sure if he is from South Africa or not, but he lives in NC. Says so right there on his social media profiles. And he had posted a video of him going to CitizenCon 2016 from a NC airport. ----------------
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Jan 2, 2018 18:21
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Abuminable posted:The misPerception Do we even want to know what terrible movie this is?
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Jan 2, 2018 18:22
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Jan 2, 2018 18:23
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Thirsty Dog posted:People claiming Elite is terrible or not actually a game are basically Reddit I think you'll find that outside of Star Citizen, the only people who talk about how horrible Elite Dangerous is are people who have hundreds of hours of time played on their steam account, which is pretty much all you need to know about the game
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Jan 2, 2018 18:24
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D_Smart posted:Not sure if he is from South Africa or not, but he lives in NC. Says so right there on his social media profiles. And he had posted a video of him going to CitizenCon 2016 from a NC airport. NC = North Corea?
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Jan 2, 2018 18:25
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EminusSleepus posted:NC = North Corea? New Cersey
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Jan 2, 2018 18:25
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gently caress ya'll hatin' on that E:D story, it was cool. Time to hatepledge!
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Jan 2, 2018 18:26
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CrazyLoon posted:gently caress ya'll hatin' on that E:D story, it was cool. Time to hatepledge! Buy 20 gold anaconda skins stat
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Jan 2, 2018 18:27
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Toops posted:How do you predict customer satisfaction during development and in the lead up to release? These are good ones, but I think some important points are missing: 4. Can it be maintained at an acceptable cost and risk? (did the engineers actually do it right / are the key people still employed?) 5. Can it be extended and/or modified according to user expectations and at an acceptable cost? (did the architects get it right?) I.e. technical debt. Demos, prototypes and POCs often result in poor quality, when they are treated as the first step of an iterative development process, for a variety of reasons. On the other hand a product which fails at 1 and 3 may end up great if the foundations are good, and the team manages to build on it. Back when software was a shrink-wrapped product, technical debt was not the biggest issue. Companies could, and did, start over, when making new products. But in an age of SaaS, early access, DLC, micro-transactions, episodic content, and higher production costs, technical debt is only viable if you're looking for a quick score / acquisition / IPO. A product with the level of technical debt obvious in Star Citizen is in big trouble, especially considering it's pre-alpha.
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Jan 2, 2018 18:28
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D_Smart posted:Not sure if he is from South Africa or not, but he lives in NC. Says so right there on his social media profiles. And he had posted a video of him going to CitizenCon 2016 from a NC airport. 
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Jan 2, 2018 18:29
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Ursine Catastrophe posted:I think you'll find that outside of Star Citizen, the only people who talk about how horrible Elite Dangerous is are people who have hundreds of hours of time played on their steam account, which is pretty much all you need to know about the game ED has its up and down And during the time sperg citizen was selling jpegs I was able to visit Sag A, got myself a python ship and was able to visit my favorite stars and Constellation.
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Jan 2, 2018 18:29
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Ursine Catastrophe posted:I think you'll find that outside of Star Citizen, the only people who talk about how horrible Elite Dangerous is are people who have
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Jan 2, 2018 18:30
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D_Smart posted:Not sure if he is from South Africa or not, but he lives in NC. Says so right there on his social media profiles. And he had posted a video of him going to CitizenCon 2016 from a NC airport. Oh, people here were talking about him being South African, and I did a quick Google to double check: there's posts from him about South African SC meet ups or some such poo poo.
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Jan 2, 2018 18:36
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PederP posted:These are good ones, but I think some important points are missing: Yeah I totally agree. I guess IMO those are kind of inherent to point 2 (does it run without technical detriments to its design). Like, does everything seem fine to the user, but it runs so inefficiently that you need 1 server for every 3 concurrent users and drown yourself with hosting costs? That's a detriment to the design, provided the need to support more than 3 concurrent users is in the design. Or, is the code so messy that when you try to add anything, the god drat poo poo won't compile until you refactor 32 classes? That's a detriment to the design, provided that adding features (extensibility) is in the design and there's a business need for it. edit: PederP posted:On the other hand a product which fails at 1 and 3 may end up great if the foundations are good, and the team manages to build on it. IMO quality is assessed at a moment in time. If it fails 1 or 3, quality is low. Sure, you could make it better later, and that's precisely what you should do. But assuming the foundations are good when it doesn't meet customer's needs is very dangerous, because significant changes to the feature requirements can necessitate a re-architecture, even if your original architecture was good. Toops fucked around with this message at 18:44 on Jan 2, 2018 |
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Jan 2, 2018 18:38
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Ursine Catastrophe posted:I think you'll find that outside of Star Citizen, the only people who talk about how horrible Elite Dangerous is are people who have hundreds of hours of time played on their steam account, which is pretty much all you need to know about the game People who get sick of a game after >100 hours and start grinding about how it's a super lovely game because they could only literally play it for 5 days straight before getting tired of it just seem like stupid people to me. "I spent >100 hours in this game before I stopped having fun!!!" *buys the next generic fps, finishes and shelves it in 4-8 hours* Also, my older brother visited today and his kids tried out VR. Did a couple loops in il-2, then moved on to roomscale minecraft. The reaction to minecraft, which they also have at home was, and I quote, "this is so much easier than playing on a computer". 
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Jan 2, 2018 18:43
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Ursine Catastrophe posted:I think you'll find that outside of Star Citizen, the only people who talk about how horrible Elite Dangerous is are people who have hundreds of hours of time played on their steam account, which is pretty much all you need to know about the game I have an rear end load of time logged on Fallout 4 but I can assure you that 98% of that time was spent trying to find the fun and moving chairs around in a PTSD stupor. EminusSleepus posted:ED has its up and down Is this a commentary on subjective views of quality
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Jan 2, 2018 18:55
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I don't know why people accuse me of doxxing, it's something I simply don't do. Anyway, have a look at these family holiday photos I dug up of this latest clown who's arguing with me on the internet
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Jan 2, 2018 18:57
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It takes 100 hours in ED to realize you've been space trucking for 100 hours and still don't have 1/10th of what you need to buy the ship you want. The sound design is poo poo hot though.
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Jan 2, 2018 19:00
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Lack of Gravitas posted:I don't know why people accuse me of doxxing, it's something I simply don't do. If you're going to take this thread head on and you don't slip an anime character into every picture of your family you're an idiot and deserve what's coming to you.
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Jan 2, 2018 19:01
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Perhaps this year we shall all find our mood stabilizers. Also,
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Jan 2, 2018 19:01
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big nipples big life posted:It takes 100 hours in ED to realize you've been space trucking for 100 hours and still don't have 1/10th of what you need to buy the ship you want. Or two hours if you blow things up instead.
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Jan 2, 2018 19:07
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Toops posted:Yeah I totally agree. I guess IMO those are kind of inherent to point 2 (does it run without technical detriments to its design). Like, does everything seem fine to the user, but it runs so inefficiently that you need 1 server for every 3 concurrent users and drown yourself with hosting costs? That's a detriment to the design, provided the need to support more than 3 concurrent users is in the design. Or, is the code so messy that when you try to add anything, the god drat poo poo won't compile until you refactor 32 classes? That's a detriment to the design, provided that adding features (extensibility) is in the design and there's a business need for it. Fairly stupid point, but we're converging on models where runtime is calculated rather than just keeping a room warm. AWS Lambdas are pretty drat lightweight and extensible (once you've folded yourself into the shape that AWS prefers). (Lambda is geek for something that does something specific, and usually gets used around anonymous functions which I consider the devil) There's always a tradeoff, and it's been amusing to go through the different cycles. One interesting example was serial and parallel communications....pushing something _fast_ down a single pipeline, or pushing something _wide_ down a pipeline. Eventually 'width' becomes limited by the physical connectors, where 'fast' becomes limited by radio-frequency switching. Personally, technical debt I'm dealing with is the inevitable conclusion of only dealing with the easy problems and low hanging fruit for a decade, painting ourselves further into corners. We're getting the point where we have actually deal with the can, rather than kicking it down the road.
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Jan 2, 2018 19:11
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Truga posted:People who get sick of a game after >100 hours and start grinding about how it's a super lovely game because they could only literally play it for 5 days straight before getting tired of it just seem like stupid people to me. "I spent >100 hours in this game before I stopped having fun!!!" *buys the next generic fps, finishes and shelves it in 4-8 hours* This is a pretty common argument, and in my view it's very short-sighted and obtuse. It's not my place to tell people what's fun, but here's my rough hourly breakdown in Elite: Hours 1-5: God drat, this is amazing. I can travel to every point of light in the sky! It feels like I'm flying a ship! I can land on space stations, get in space fights, upgrade my ship... Cool! Let's see if I can find something fun to do. Hours 5-6: Running missions for a pittance of credits. Light arithmetic shows that it will take 356.6666 hours to upgrade to a better ship just running missions. Hours 6-7: Reading reddit about what's fun to do that might yield some credits towards actual progression. Hours 7-15: Grinding REC to get a better ship so I can have a suitable ship for finding fun things to do. Hours 15-20: Get a Vulture but sick of grinding REC, so go see what exploration is all about Hours 20-30: Go back to mindlessly grinding REC to save up credits, because exploration is simply a meditation on the emptiness of space and the inherent meaninglessness in the occasional mote of icy dead matter floating in it, and sometimes I come home from work braindead so it's nice to do something mindless. Hours 30-31: Planning some trading routes because maybe trading is fun Hours 31-32: Discovering trading is not even remotely fun, it's a paper-thin mechanic so void and depressing that makes me consider whether I'm wasting my life, and that maybe video games "just aren't for me" anymore. Hours 32-40: Retreating to grinding REC to get a python kitted for mining, because maybe mining is fun Hours 40-41: Finding some suitable mining areas Hours 41-50: Discovering mining is yet another paper-thin mechanic with no redeeming value, and a hopeless waste of time in terms of credits/hr <quit game in utter disgust, vowing never to play it again> Hours 50-51: After breaking my vow, read on reddit about what to do in "The Engineers" Hours 51-60: Discovering "The Engineers" is just another paper-thin mechanic for you to upgrade your ship so you can do any number of paper-thin, mind-numbingly boring things So yeah. Did I get a lot of "value" out of those 60 hours? gently caress no. I spent those 60 hours grinding through timewalled rand() mechanics masquerading as "gameplay" trying to find some semblance of god drat game design in Elite, and I failed. If you enjoy it, cool. But you saying "hey they have 100 hours, they must agree game is good!" is like saying "Hey, you spent 4 hours in bumper-to-bumper traffic today, you must love your car!" Toops fucked around with this message at 19:14 on Jan 2, 2018 |
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Jan 2, 2018 19:11
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Toops posted:IMO quality is assessed at a moment in time. If it fails 1 or 3, quality is low. Sure, you could make it better later, and that's precisely what you should do. But assuming the foundations are good when it doesn't meet customer's needs is very dangerous, because significant changes to the feature requirements can necessitate a re-architecture, even if your original architecture was good. True, that's a valid point. But I think it's a point more easily conveyed to stakeholders than the technical debt issue. It's sad when time and money is wasted on extending a product past the viability of the foundations. Re-architecturing and/or rewriting some or all subsystems is an option, but one that in my experience is often not given due consideration due to sunk cost. I think Star Citizen is a great example of a high quality demo turning into a poor quality pre-alpha/tech-demo abomination. Possibly because there were stakeholders who refused to acknowledge this, or were led to believe otherwise.
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Jan 2, 2018 19:17
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Hello thread! I hope everyone had a great holiday break and new year celebration. I just finally caught up. The consensus I get is that most of you feel SC is not good or a game yet, you all think Skadden will win it's case or a nice settlement from CIG/RSI, and that I'm to be left alone for eating a species of shark that there are plenty. Oh, and Derek is pretend suing someone (or threatening a suit - YAWN ) again? Man - 2018 is shaping up to be cool and good.
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Jan 2, 2018 19:22
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OH NOES he did it again - he doxxed. LOL
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Jan 2, 2018 19:25
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XK posted:Oh, people here were talking about him being South African, and I did a quick Google to double check: there's posts from him about South African SC meet ups or some such poo poo. Either he was on vacation or whatever (e.g. if he is from there, he could have been visiting etc), but so far, everything points to him being in North Carolina. Even his Twitter profile says so https://twitter.com/montoya_test It's going to be challenging for me to sue someone in South Africa. Being in the US, I have sued people in the UK, Canada, and Germany. It's not hard, but it is still a bit of work. Most of the work is getting a US attorney to find a counterpart or firm in the target country, and do it that way. That's what I did when I sued companies in all 3 countries, including Dreamcatcher which was a Candadian company with offices in Canada. My legal wrath has no boundaries. It just costs time and money. ----------------
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Jan 2, 2018 19:25
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D_Smart posted:Either he was on vacation or whatever (e.g. if he is from there, he could have been visiting etc), but so far, everything points to him being in North Carolina. Even his Twitter profile says so https://twitter.com/montoya_test L O L I thought watching clips of the Mariah Carey bit in NY was the cream-of-the-crop comedy to start of 2018, but this is golden.
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Jan 2, 2018 19:28
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Watch as I doxx this man then pay an ambulance chaser in a cheap suit to send him a letter!
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Jan 2, 2018 19:30
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Abuminable posted:The misPerception Not bad. 
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Jan 2, 2018 19:31
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PederP posted:True, that's a valid point. But I think it's a point more easily conveyed to stakeholders than the technical debt issue. It's sad when time and money is wasted on extending a product past the viability of the foundations. Re-architecturing and/or rewriting some or all subsystems is an option, but one that in my experience is often not given due consideration due to sunk cost. I think Star Citizen is a great example of a high quality demo turning into a poor quality pre-alpha/tech-demo abomination. Possibly because there were stakeholders who refused to acknowledge this, or were led to believe otherwise. Exactly totally agree. The truth, is, you can kludge together a blob of software that appears to do just about anything. Sometimes, that's the right thing to do. Usually, it's a terrible thing to do, because it only yields the illusion of progress. Now the expectations are high, because you cranked out this "awesome" thing in a small amount of time that barely works in demo and falls down hard in production. When the business goes "We want more! We got hot new customers in the pipeline!! OH!! And fix the bugs, customers are complaining that poo poo don't work!!!!" they are understandably confused when you say "well, actually we need to go back and actually do the thing we just finished properly." They'll say "Why didn't you do it right the first time!?!?" and you'll say "Uhh, dumbass, because you gave us ridiculous deadlines and we kind of mumbled that it wasn't possible but said 'OK, I guess' at the end." Then it's years of half-finished re-writes, partial re-factors, the business complaining about slow feature velocity, turnover, complaining during 2-hour beer-soaked lunch sessions, etc. And the one constant is "production issues." Star Citizen is the poster-child for development done completely loving wrong. Chris makes some outlandish, border-line psychotic public commitment, art churns out some high-poly assets up, eng duct tapes them together with no long-term plan (imo assuming what they're writing is throw-away prototype *for demo purposes only* panic code), and then CIG marketing parades it out in front of backers to raise money. Then they pull a new branch and start cooking up the next load of bullshit. It's Marketing-Driven-Development, which is just countdown to failure. Toops fucked around with this message at 19:35 on Jan 2, 2018 |
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Jan 2, 2018 19:32
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