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Rey is a boring poo poo character. Go ahead and try to describe her personality without referencing that she's a scavenger-turned Jedi with orphan issues. Nothing in the series is ever really a threat to her. She instantly learns the force and escapes from the Death Star 2000 and then goes on to defeat a sith lord in lightsaber combat. Then, in this movie, she swings a lightsaber at a rock for her training and then goes on to... do what exactly? Fight Kylo Ren to another standstill and save the rebellion again by virtue of lifting rocks.
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Jan 2, 2018 22:53
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Do we know if Snoke is actually Sith or just an evil force user?
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Jan 2, 2018 22:54
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I think sith is just a word at this point.
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Jan 2, 2018 22:57
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Basebf555 posted:There was also a bit of what Luke was saying in Rogue One, with the Order of the Whills or whatever they're called acting as like a conduit for the Force to touch the common man. Jedi are not wizards. They do not cast spells. They are zen warrior monks who have, in theory, attained near-enlightenment. What they do, they do because they can listen to the universe and do what it tells them to do. A jedi, when calling upon the Force, is unstoppable in battle because they are in harmony with their surroundings and each thing they do is the correct thing to do. From the outside, it looks like they're doing magic, but the difference between that and being a wizard is that anyone, literally anyone, from the smallest child to the young daughter of two drugged-out junk-traders, can do what the jedi do if they can just stop being up their own rear end long enough to listen to the universe. Spacebump posted:Do we know if Snoke is actually Sith or just an evil force user?
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Jan 2, 2018 22:59
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If that were true Kylo would be hopeless. Genes seem to be the most important factor once you become aware of the force, and in a dramatically unequal fashion (if a normal person is a 1 then luke is 1000, kylo is a million and rey appears to be a billion).
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Jan 2, 2018 23:04
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Capri Sun Tzu posted:Rey is a boring poo poo character. Go ahead and try to describe her personality without referencing that she's a scavenger-turned Jedi with orphan issues. She’s very much about protecting the little things and against the big evil. She is willing to give chances to those who may not deserve them, or never had a chance to begin with. But at the end of the day, she wants to belong somewhere that feels like home.
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Jan 2, 2018 23:23
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Basebf555 posted:He's not telling her to murder them, he's just pointing out that they're probably gonna die. And then Rey goes and helps save them, so he was wrong. But I don't think it would've been crazy for her to be convinced by what he was saying there. They were probably going to die because he was refusing to call off the attack on them, yes. Capri Sun Tzu posted:Rey is a boring poo poo character. Go ahead and try to describe her personality without referencing that she's a scavenger-turned Jedi with orphan issues. Nothing in the series is ever really a threat to her. She instantly learns the force and escapes from the Death Star 2000 and then goes on to defeat a sith lord in lightsaber combat. Then, in this movie, she swings a lightsaber at a rock for her training and then goes on to... do what exactly? Fight Kylo Ren to another standstill and save the rebellion again by virtue of lifting rocks. Sure? Rey is strong-willed and stubborn and forceful to a fault. She is a good person who genuinely believes in helping others and has pie-in-the-eye optimism buried under years of survival. She lacks confidence in herself and has to struggle with the idea that she could be an important figure which is a genuine contrast to Kylo Ren who knows he is an important figure and is defined by it. However at the end of the day she's willing to take risks and believe in the impossible in a way nobody else in the series is willing to do. This is ironically what makes her good at being a Jedi because she is actually willing to just believe. She is in almost way a sharp contrast to Kylo Ren in a fairly blunt way. This means she trends towards being more overtly heroic and good-guy-y but that isn't inherently a bad thing. She's less interesting than Kylo Ren but heroes rarely are as interesting as villains. ImpAtom fucked around with this message at 23:37 on Jan 2, 2018 |
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Jan 2, 2018 23:31
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ImpAtom posted:They were probably going to die because he was refusing to call off the attack on them, yes. At that moment Kylo isn't really in a position to call of the attack, it's happening regardless.
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Jan 2, 2018 23:35
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Basebf555 posted:At that moment Kylo isn't really in a position to call of the attack, it's happening regardless. That's a pretty thin argument considering she literally asks him to and his response isn't "I can't" but "This has to happen." Also notice in his big speech about destroying everything he never mentions the First Order.
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Jan 2, 2018 23:38
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He certainly is. Kylo was willing to literally kill his dad and let his mom die - from his perspective what he was asking for from Rey was trivial. Kylo seems hell-bent on killing everyone he has any sentimental attachment to (including Luke) because they'll get in the way of what he feels he needs to do (whatever that is). He's upset that Rey doesn't feel the same way. It would be great if Kylo could describe what his plans for the galaxy are beyond killing rebels because he seems to have no more ideals than the rebels, who seem happy to go on bloody suicide missions inglourious basterds style to kill nazis.
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Jan 2, 2018 23:39
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All the stuff you're saying about Kylo is true, he does want to kill everyone and do lots of horrible things, but he's not directly ordering Rey to go murder anyone. With the full context of everything leading up to it, with Rey's lonely existence on Jakku and her desperation to have connections with others, it's believable to me that Kylo could exploit that to deceive her into taking a route that he presents as the only one left. So not only would I have bought it, I think it would have been a far more interesting way to go. It's more of a mistake in RotS that I'm pointing out more than anything else. Anakin's turn is done well imo, but then Sidious turns around right away and in the same scene orders him to go purge the Jedi temple. It takes me out of the movie and makes Anakin's actions feel a bit artificial because it's something it seems like he'd have refused to do 5 minutes ago. Basebf555 fucked around with this message at 23:50 on Jan 2, 2018 |
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Jan 2, 2018 23:47
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Capri Sun Tzu posted:Rey is a boring poo poo character. Go ahead and try to describe her personality without referencing that she's a scavenger-turned Jedi with orphan issues. Nothing in the series is ever really a threat to her. She instantly learns the force and escapes from the Death Star 2000 and then goes on to defeat a sith lord in lightsaber combat. Then, in this movie, she swings a lightsaber at a rock for her training and then goes on to... do what exactly? Fight Kylo Ren to another standstill and save the rebellion again by virtue of lifting rocks. This is just utter shitspeak. She's emotionally stunted as a result of her upbringing (or lack thereof) and spends TFA conflicted between her childlike dreaming and her childlike longing to belong, both of which hold her back from acting rationally. By the end of TLJ she's largely moved on from both of these and is ready to become her own self without being reliant on either the heroes or the parents that she built up in her mind. This is what we call an arc. She's a lot more developed than Luke was at this point in his trilogy (TLJ is the best character development Luke's had in the entire series though). Also everything everyone else said. The rest of your criticisms boil down to the same 'Mary Sue' argument is requires an intentional failure to understand the basic plot of this trilogy.
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Jan 2, 2018 23:52
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Basebf555 posted:All the stuff you're saying about Kylo is true, he does want to kill everyone and do lots of horrible things, but he's not directly ordering Rey to go murder anyone. With the full context of everything leading up to it, with Rey's lonely existence on Jakku and her desperation to have connections with others, it's believable to me that Kylo could exploit that to deceive her into taking a route that he presents as the only one left. So not only would I have bought it, I think it would have been a far more interesting way to go. "He isn't directly ordering Rey to kill anyone, merely saying that she should let all her friends die in order to literally join the Nazis." Because, again, Ren isn't talking about overthrowing everything. He's talking about taking over the Order, which you'll note is what he does exactly after Rey turns him down. The mere fact that you're going "well, Rey is defined by her connections to others, that is why she'd willingly give them up for Kylo Ren" emphasizes why that makes no sense. Rey is defined by her connection to others and Finn and Leia are two of those people and there is no particularly good reason for her to let them die. Kylo Ren's argument to her is "you're not special, but I'll act like you are." Contrast this to Finn for who Rey is special and whose entire arc in this story is trying to do something to help Rey. Rey gets to choose between the person who tells her she isn't special because she isn't a Skywalker and the person who doesn't give a poo poo about her being a Skywalker, just that she is Rey. Rey doesn't see Finn's plot because she doesn't need to. She already knows who Finn is. It's not hard to figure out why she turns down Ren within the context of her character and it would be a lot weirder for her to just give up on Finn and Leia.
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Jan 2, 2018 23:53
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ImpAtom posted:The mere fact that you're going "well, Rey is defined by her connections to others, that is why she'd willingly give them up for Kylo Ren" emphasizes why that makes no sense. Rey is defined by her connection to others and Finn and Leia are two of those people and there is no particularly good reason for her to let them die. The assumption would be that her friends are dead or soon to be dead, and this is her one and only chance to have something like a family because Kylo understands her and wants to support her. It would be a mistake, obviously, but one that I would understand and be interested to see the consequences of.
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Jan 2, 2018 23:58
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Capri Sun Tzu posted:What if you had a harry potter movie where the main character starts off knowing all the spells and being completely badass. It would be loving boring, that's basically the character of Rey. I can’t tell if this is ironic but Harry and Hermione are both immediately pitch perfect at any spell that matters. Hell Harry is the best quidditch player in like school history after getting on a broom once
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Jan 3, 2018 00:23
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Dishwasher posted:TL:DR You can't blow up Galactic Poverty with proton torpedoes. I understand what you're saying, and I agree with a fair chunk of it, and I don't mean to dismiss it, but: tl;dr then the movie should probably not be called Star Wars.
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Jan 3, 2018 00:24
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Capri Sun Tzu posted:What if you had a harry potter movie where the main character starts off knowing all the spells and being completely badass. It would be loving boring, that's basically the character of Rey. There's this anime series Overlord where the main character gets trapped in the game starting out as, like, Level 99 with maxed out stats and equipment. He has NPCs he leads out in the world to figure out what happened, can he escape, and if there's anyone else. It's kinda neat series and it works. He's basically invincible from the get go. Allow me to demonstrate proof of what I stated.... 
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Jan 3, 2018 00:27
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Capri Sun Tzu posted:Rey is a boring poo poo character. Go ahead and try to describe her personality without referencing that she's a scavenger-turned Jedi with orphan issues. Someone trying to figure out what they should do with the power that they have.
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Jan 3, 2018 00:29
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The discussions of the new Star Wars characters reminds me of this passage from "So long, and thanks for all the fish!"Douglas Adams posted:Chapter Twenty-five Basically what I'm saying here is I wish Douglas Adams was alive and had written the Last Jedi.
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Jan 3, 2018 00:34
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Luke and yoda and Rey are all casting spells in the last movie. Snoke too.
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Jan 3, 2018 00:39
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SimonCat posted:Basically what I'm saying here is I wish Douglas Adams was alive and had written the Last Jedi. Alternate reading: The Last Jedi is the series' Mostly Harmless.
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Jan 3, 2018 01:04
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Rey is good. People who get mad at her are literally just sexist and too blind to see that they’re sexist.
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Jan 3, 2018 01:07
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Only a misogynist would say Rey is only good, rather than great
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Jan 3, 2018 01:24
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True.
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Jan 3, 2018 01:26
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Captain von Trapp posted:Alternate reading: The Last Jedi is the series' Mostly Harmless. Oh, that is a good one.
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Jan 3, 2018 01:31
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GoldfishStew posted:Rey is good. People who get mad at her are literally just sexist and too blind to see that they’re sexist. 
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Jan 3, 2018 01:31
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GoldfishStew posted:Rey is good. People who get mad at her are literally just sexist and too blind to see that they’re sexist. Hillary, is that you?
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Jan 3, 2018 01:34
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I find this movie frustrating for bringing up tantalizing possibilities and then dropping them. And a lot of people have been saying that it subverts expectations but...it kinda doesn't, imo. We learn that the Resistance and First Order get their equipment from the same people and that the galactic one-percenters are getting rich off of it. Thats an interesting spin on Star Wars. But its just sorta mentioned and then forgotten about when Finn and Rose get back into the main plot. It may come up again in Episode 9, but for the rest of Episode 8 it doesn't seem to play a big part in anything. Kylo says "gently caress the resistance, gently caress the first order, gently caress the past" which I guess could be a part of that, but I think the topic is interesting enough to play an even bigger role, and it should have. Not just some background material. The rest of the movie is still pretty much Good Rebels versus Bad Imperials. Its like the movie wants to score some points for mentioning war profiteering but doesnt want to really delve deep into it, and its a shame because, like i said, that'd be interesting to do for Star Wars. And then when Kylo kills Snoke and offers Rey to join him. She learns that her parents were nobodies, he's just killed Snoke so he's the head of the First Order now, she wants to try to get through to Kylo. But she refuses...for some reason. Well, no, not for "some reason": it's because this is what's supposed to happen in this movie. If she had actually taken him up on his offer, believing that she can influence him just as much as he can influence her, and together they can end this war peacefully and start fresh, that would have been different from what happened in the Original Trilogy, where Vader offered Luke to join him and Luke refused and would rather commit suicide. But Rey has to refuse Kylo so that this trilogy isnt too different from the Original Trilogy. Having the protagonist actually switch allegiances would be too similar to the Prequels, which everyone hated and which Disney wants to avoid comparisons to. She has to play the Luke Skywalker role, which means she refuses and now the third movie will involve her fighting Kylo again. I'm sure people can come up with justifications for why it went this way (Rey wants family and sees the Resistance as her family, not Kylo; maybe she sensed that he was totally going to kill the Resistance no matter what she said to convince him otherwise; etc.), but still, they're still justifications for why things turned out the way everyone assumed they would and for NOT doing the unexpected thing.
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Jan 3, 2018 01:39
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I've been thinking about how the idea of consuming a star for fuel was cool in TFA but they could have done a lot more with it. Starkiller base should have started off as a temperate or tropical planet and gotten colder and colder the more of the star was used up. The animals have never had to go through a winter before so they all die when the temperature drop, and you could have a line or two of dialogue making this explicit when some of the characters find the corpses everywhere. There's gotta be something symbolic in the fact that their naivete of never having known hardship causes the First Order to kill them  Then as it got colder there'd be a blizzard which a lot of the dramatic events in the movie could happen in, but after that, at the very end right before they win, it's so cold there's not a blizzard or even wind anymore, it's just eternal, perfectly still night, snow so thick you can't even see the animal corpses anymore. It's starting to make me mad they didn't do this.
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Jan 3, 2018 01:40
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Blue Star posted:I find this movie frustrating for bringing up tantalizing possibilities and then dropping them. And a lot of people have been saying that it subverts expectations but...it kinda doesn't, imo. Anything and everything interesting in this movie is done halfway at best and later undermined and abandoned at worst
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Jan 3, 2018 01:42
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I love that team "TLJ is good" now has a real doll fucker on their side, brilliant.
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Jan 3, 2018 01:43
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s.i.r.e. posted:I love that team "TLJ is good" now has a real doll fucker on their side, brilliant. Let's try this: if there's anyone in the thread who thinks TLJ is worse than TFA, let them step forward
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Jan 3, 2018 01:45
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s.i.r.e. posted:I love that team "TLJ is good" now has a real doll fucker on their side, brilliant. So who gives a poo poo. Just discuss the movie, let's break this piece of art down and dissect it.
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Jan 3, 2018 01:47
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Jeb! Repetition posted:Let's try this: if there's anyone in the thread who thinks TLJ is worse than TFA, let them step forward For me that's a tough question to answer because a lot of the problems I have with TLJ were established in TFA. So yea, I guess that makes TFA worse.
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Jan 3, 2018 01:47
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It's tough. TFA had one good dramatic scene (Kylo and Han), TLJ had one good action scene (killing Snoke and how pretty the incinerated red dude's ashes were). Really depends on your temperament. I don't think anything in TLJ felt as destroyed in the editing room as the aftermath of Maz's cantina, but nothing in TFA was as cringe as the little kid with the rebel ring. The end scene with Kylo v Rey in TFA wasn't terrible and the sky killer was a little more threatening as an antagonist than Poe and Finn's incompetence, but Mark Hamill also wasn't terrible and I preferred the new Leia. I wouldn't judge someone harshly either way.
No Wave fucked around with this message at 01:56 on Jan 3, 2018 |
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Jan 3, 2018 01:51
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Jeb! Repetition posted:Let's try this: if there's anyone in the thread who thinks TLJ is worse than TFA, let them step forward I think it's worse but I respect that it at least tried to do something unique
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Jan 3, 2018 01:52
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Irony Be My Shield posted:It's true that you can't look at sales alone to determine a films worth. It also performed well on other metrics, such as critical reviews and making terrible nerds mad. man 2018 sucks
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Jan 3, 2018 01:57
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GoldfishStew posted:You seriously only watch this movies for electric sword battles? im in it for the spaceships personally
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Jan 3, 2018 02:07
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GoldfishStew posted:Rey is good. People who get mad at her are literally just sexist and too blind to see that they’re sexist. You people are loving weird
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Jan 3, 2018 02:16
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PriorMarcus posted:Extended Universe doesn't count. In the films it's presented as Coruscant blowing up. The film literally says it's the Hosnian system.
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Jan 3, 2018 02:17
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