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Koalas March posted:yeah.. people tend to like you when you aren't a racist/sexist shitrag. 
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Jan 7, 2018 12:34
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Office Pig posted:That’s sort of a problem in and of itself, though. We get to gawk at the freaks and cretins but the really awful actors in the future are just going to get this ‘meh’ like the early days of Gorsuch and no one will think twice about what’s happening. Dick Cheney’s eviler twin could get installed into the VA and ‘purity test’ would crop up now that Barry Goldwater’s become our barometer. I mean, yeah? I think the democrats will settle for anyone qualified for the post at this point, and I'm pretty sure Mattis isn't installing anyone at DoD other than your standard hawk fuckers that you'd get no matter the administration. These guys go through hearings and the democrat members of the committee tell the caucus whether or not to vote. In a vote like this, a no-vote is just political checkboxes for presidential candidates.
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Jan 7, 2018 15:24
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Fluffdaddy posted:"Progressive" "Centrist" "Leftist" are all names white people use to blame each other for poo poo while not doing anything about white supremacy, so don't drag the Civil Rights movement into your leftist pissing contests cause it aint got poo poo to do with yall I agree 100%, not sure why you're mad at me for saying white people are dishonest snakes
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Jan 7, 2018 17:08
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Koalas March posted:I love when people say dumb poo poo like "you're just saying that to get people to like you" Except the post in question was ridiculous self parody so mocking it was correct.
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Jan 7, 2018 17:20
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Ogmius815 posted:Except the post in question was ridiculous self parody so mocking it was correct. Yes, that's why I excluded it 💁
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Jan 7, 2018 17:40
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Koalas March posted:Yes, that's why I excluded it 💁 It appears you did. That's what I get for reading too fast.
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Jan 7, 2018 18:00
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Jan 7, 2018 20:57
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joepinetree posted:Oh, i agree. Which is why on the topic of the relationship between the civil rights movement and the left i like to read what the actual people living the civil rights movement had to say, as opposed to whatever whitewashed nonsense you find online. The brilliant thing about the whole "tar the radical left as uniquely racist (relative to mainstream Dems)" strategy from 2016 is that it basically takes advantage of the "assume accusations/claims of racism are true" rationale (which is usually a reliable rule of thumb). Even though it's a transparently cynical strategy crafted to tear down the left, it puts the left in the unenviable position of either 1. having to agree with what is essentially a lopsided presentation the ignores the racism of the mainstream center-left (which to the onlooker supports the inaccurate perception of the left being uniquely racist) or 2. having to act defensive in a context where acting defensive usually indicates being bigoted in some way (i.e. pointing out the racism of the center-left would be perceived as deflection in this context). The approach I've tried in the past - both acknowledging racism on the left and attacking the lopsided nature of the argument - also ends up being perceived as some sort of defensive deflection. It's sorta similar to when the USSR talked about US racism or something; the arguments are often true, but selectively omit information in a way that is extremely misleading. I've come to the conclusion that the best option is to just not engage with that sort of argument in the first place. You can usually tell when someone is criticizing the left with the intent of lifting it up rather than tearing it down, and if the latter is happening there's nothing to gain from responding.
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Jan 7, 2018 21:57
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I don’t think white people will ever truly understand what black people go through. They can come close but the fact that they’re white automatically blinds them to the problem. We all have a tendency to assume our experiences and conditions in life are equivalent for others as well. This isn’t the case and is a product of inherent privilege. I think it’s better if we empower leaders and representatives of the black community to empower themselves and simply step aside and let them have what they want. Maybe make a deal that we both vote for socialist policies in exchange. Privileged white people are not qualified enough to determine the future of the black community. It’s up to them to decide that for themselves and us to stand aside and let them have it.
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Jan 7, 2018 23:28
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Kraftwerk posted:I don’t think white people will ever truly understand what black people go through. They can come close but the fact that they’re white automatically blinds them to the problem. We all have a tendency to assume our experiences and conditions in life are equivalent for others as well. This isn’t the case and is a product of inherent privilege. I 100% agree when it comes to anything specifically related to bigotry/racial inequality, though things can get muddled when you're talking about issues that can affect all people. Like, if you're discussing wealth inequality or healthcare, those are issues that obviously affect everyone. They disproportionately affect PoC, though in a discussion and on an individual basis there's no need to really refer to populations like that (in a discussion where there are two people who are just as poor, for example, they're both facing the same consequences of wealth inequality for whatever combination of reasons). So while a rich black person will always have more of a stake in issues related to bigotry/racial inequality than literally any white person, the same isn't necessarily true for other types of inequality. So to come back to discussions like this, if someone is against left-wing economic policy for whatever reason, there's no need to defer to others' opinions on the basis of race alone. You could definitely argue that it makes sense to defer on the basis of wealth/poverty, though (I was actually arguing in the suck zone thread recently that it makes sense to give priority to the opinions of poor - or at least not financially privileged - people in discussions of wealth/income inequality the same way we treat PoC in discussion of racial inequality). I should clarify, however, that I'm only referring to deferring on issues that are subjective and can't be proved correct/incorrect (or that the person doesn't have the info available to prove, at least). If someone says something that is flat-out wrong, and you can prove its wrong, you should feel free to do so regardless of the demographics of the people in question. edit: To give examples: "The thing this person said has racist implications" - if a PoC says this (absent any other PoC disagreeing with them in the discussion), people should just trust them because it's ultimately a subjective thing "X policy will harm black people" - if there is historical evidence of this being false, it should be okay to present it, because this is a claim that can actually be supported or contradicted Ytlaya fucked around with this message at 23:49 on Jan 7, 2018 |
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Jan 7, 2018 23:45
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Kraftwerk posted:I don’t think white people will ever truly understand what black people go through. They can come close but the fact that they’re white automatically blinds them to the problem. We all have a tendency to assume our experiences and conditions in life are equivalent for others as well. This isn’t the case and is a product of inherent privilege. And that's just the everyday annoying, but basically "benign" poo poo, that just grates on your nerves until you want to strangle someone. That's not even getting into people actually wanting to throw you in jail or murder you for no reason at all, and knowing that the law and society and culture protects them. That's a bit harder to imagine. But white people can do better. Most white people aren't going to agree with Mike Ditka when he says there hasn't been oppression in this country in 100 years, but if pressed for specifics all they'll be able to tell you is Jim Crow, the Civil Rights Movement, slavery, and maybe a few other things. Maybe they'll talk about extrajudicial killings by the police or the incarceration rate, but probably not. So only the big, obvious, stuff. That's a failure of imagination. Kilroy fucked around with this message at 00:06 on Jan 8, 2018 |
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Jan 7, 2018 23:58
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White people's experiences can be so far removed it's like we speak different languages some times. Remember when I said I had a Spidey sense for racism? As in, I can catch dogwhistling and people trying to disguise their ignorance? When I was up for being a mod the first time goons mocked me for that poo poo but then just this week Damon from VSB/TheRoot said he had a racism Spidey sense. We speak the same language because rooting out racism is part of our shared experience as black people. White people don't know what it's like to be on guard because you've been or seen others like you dehumanized constantly in such a way throughout your life and history. It is so foreign for them that they see it as worth mocking. It brings me back to Jordan Peele's NPR interview in which he talked about white folks gaslighting PoC by claiming we see racism where it isn't or as a Boogeyman. quote:Peele wanted the audience, regardless of race, to see the subtle racism through Chris' eyes. "It was very important to me to just get the entire audience in touch in some way with the fears inherent [in] being black in this country," Peele says. "Part of being black in this country, and I presume being any minority, is constantly being told that ... we're seeing racism where there just isn't racism." Look at that quote, and long time readers think about how many times you've seen people say that poo poo to me, TB, Fluffdaddy, blackguy32, or as far back to when Negromancer still posted. Some dude in the Trump thread (I think it might have been USpol) said that exact same poo poo to me like a week ago. They still at it.
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Jan 8, 2018 01:29
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Kilroy posted:You're not wrong but that feels like letting people off the hook too easily. White people can do better, and this kind of talk encourages them not to bother. It's not hard to do a thought experiment, like "What if I had a really strong Eastern European accent or something, living in the US, and so everybody's treating me like I'm from out of town or something, only in fact I was born here and lived here all my life and grew up here, and this poo poo happens every day and there's nothing I'll ever be able to do about it?" And the fact that most black people you meet have deeper roots ancestrally in this country than most white people adds insult to that. Like I think I might have some pre-Civil-War ancestry on my maternal grandmother's side but that's it. Everything else is immigration in the late 1800s or later. And I guarantee you most of the virulent racists you come across are the same way - the only people with a stronger claim to this continent than black people are American Indians. And for most black people that's as far back as it goes - like you hear white people talk about I'm part Irish this or my great-grandmother was from here or there. White people love to talk about that poo poo. Most black people can't get that specific. Hey I'm a 1st Generation Immigrant so I generally take issue with the fact that it's a white vs black kind of argument since I think different nations have different levels of responsibility for this poo poo. My ancestors were dominated and ruled over by the Ottoman Empire, my society is predominantly white we never had black people where I'm from. So imagine my naivete where my childhood self believed black people are the same as other white people who were born here and I'm the outsider haha. Then the other white kids started trying to tell me how scary black people are and how they're much stronger than me so I grew up fearing them. There's so many insidious ways PoC get marginalized even to people who have had zero ancestral or personal experience dealing with them.
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Jan 8, 2018 01:36
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Koalas March posted:White people's experiences can be so far removed it's like we speak different languages some times. I feel like I can actually somewhat relate to that? As a member of the queer community, I feel like I can tell when someone is/is being homophobic or transphobic even where cis/het people might not see it; or at least see it in the same way. I think it might have to do with people not exposed to a certain type of bigotry excusing and forgetting small examples of that bigotry.
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Jan 8, 2018 01:40
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Ytlaya posted:The brilliant thing about the whole "tar the radical left as uniquely racist (relative to mainstream Dems)" strategy from 2016 is that it basically takes advantage of the "assume accusations/claims of racism are true" rationale (which is usually a reliable rule of thumb). Even though it's a transparently cynical strategy crafted to tear down the left, it puts the left in the unenviable position of either 1. having to agree with what is essentially a lopsided presentation the ignores the racism of the mainstream center-left (which to the onlooker supports the inaccurate perception of the left being uniquely racist) or 2. having to act defensive in a context where acting defensive usually indicates being bigoted in some way (i.e. pointing out the racism of the center-left would be perceived as deflection in this context). The approach I've tried in the past - both acknowledging racism on the left and attacking the lopsided nature of the argument - also ends up being perceived as some sort of defensive deflection. But I am not even addressing that. My entire point was never about whether the left currently or historically was more or less racist than anyone. My exclusive objection, which launched this discussion, is with the idea that the civil rights movement was somehow unrelated or uninterested in the discussion over centrism or leftism or whatever terms. Which should be a clear insult to the intelligence of anyone who is familiar with the civil rights movement. At every step of the way, the discussion of working within capitalism versus turning to communism was deeply important. I mean, we could just read the hundreds of works on the topic, but I think Du Bois' letter on why he joined the communist party should be enough: http://credo.library.umass.edu/view/pageturn/mums312-b153-i071/#page/1/mode/1up I am not in a position where my determination on "who is more racist" should carry any weight at all. But on the issue of whether the civil rights movement leaders thought about leftistm, communism, centrism, etc., all I have to do is read what they actually said.
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Jan 8, 2018 02:06
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Fluffdaddy posted:That article also leaves out the Communist abandoning Haywood in the late 50's, and the black movement completely in 1959, which ironically is when it really started popping off. Granted they got Angela Davis on board in the late 60s but then has done jack poo poo since. haywood was a staunch anti-revisionist and the party took the soviet line in those days which meant pro-khrushchev "peaceful coexistence." he was drummed out to appeal to that element (and as part of the fallout from browder's disastrous tenure as general secretary), which by all serious observers today was an incredibly boneheaded move. the cpusa has itself made poor decisions in the past but marxist-leninists like haywood and davis have been on the right side of history basically always, even if their party made foolish deviations
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Jan 8, 2018 02:17
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I think one of the larger breaks in the CPUSA was when the black nationalist movement took off, right?
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Jan 8, 2018 02:30
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unwantedplatypus posted:I feel like I can actually somewhat relate to that? As a member of the queer community, I feel like I can tell when someone is/is being homophobic or transphobic even where cis/het people might not see it; or at least see it in the same way. Yeah, I totally believe other LGBTQ folks can relate to basically having the same "superpower". The problem is that it's not even necessarily small examples, and then when you confront them (even if you use coddling and kid gloves), most of them tend to break down instead of examining themselves, where they were taught that behavior etc.
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Jan 8, 2018 03:06
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Grapplejack posted:I think one of the larger breaks in the CPUSA was when the black nationalist movement took off, right? the party was pretty well decimated by then due to internal strife (goaded by cointelpro) and smith act prosecutions
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Jan 8, 2018 03:29
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Koalas March posted:Yeah, I totally believe other LGBTQ folks can relate to basically having the same "superpower". I don't know if you have this experience, but I'll point out a look someone is giving me and my own companions will try to argue with me that I'm just reading into it. I've had friends and loved ones don't even. No matter how much they get it they never get it.
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Jan 8, 2018 03:34
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unwantedplatypus posted:I feel like I can actually somewhat relate to that? As a member of the queer community, I feel like I can tell when someone is/is being homophobic or transphobic even where cis/het people might not see it; or at least see it in the same way. Koalas March posted:Yeah, I totally believe other LGBTQ folks can relate to basically having the same "superpower". Yeah, as an NB person who spent most of their life thinking they were a straight (or later ace) white male, I've seen these things from both perspectives, I guess you could say, and after realizing my gender and sexuality and more thoroughly understanding the various issues and stuff, I realized just how much constant, subtle (and frequently not-so-subtle) bigotry there is, just, everywhere. More than once I actually thought to myself "jeez, this must be how black people/PoC in general feel all the time" or something along those lines; while I've always been sympathetic and such and tried to listen and understand, I never realized just how thorough and pervasive this sort of thing can be, or how other people tend to just gloss over it, until being in a similar situation myself. And, being white, I obviously still don't know exactly what PoC experience, even if I've gotten a lot better at spotting things than I used to be and have tried to speak up when I notice them.
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Jan 8, 2018 04:09
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pelosi is sure doing a good job of resisting the trump administration: https://twitter.com/ShantMM/status/950217112676483073 quote:Paul Pelosi Jr., son of House Democratic leader Nancy Pelosi, appears to be quite the nonpartisan partyer. love to adventure with fascists and their progeny
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Jan 8, 2018 08:40
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Koalas March posted:Yeah, I totally believe other LGBTQ folks can relate to basically having the same "superpower". Well yes, because breaking down turns the point of focus back onto them, which is just another method of marginalization. That's the main goal of racism and bigotry at large; take attention away from the "other" so they get kept down.
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Jan 8, 2018 12:29
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Tired: Nancy Pelosi’s son at Mar-a-Lago Wired: Tim Kaine’s son at Mar-a-Lago
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Jan 8, 2018 14:09
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Condiv posted:pelosi is sure doing a good job of resisting the trump administration: This is a really dumb thing to care about.
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Jan 8, 2018 14:48
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Republicans and their supposed opposition actually being friends who run in the same social circles is perfectly relevant.
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Jan 8, 2018 14:49
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Nevvy Z posted:This is a really dumb thing to care about. Oh Snapple! posted:Republicans and their supposed opposition actually being friends who run in the same social circles is perfectly relevant. Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Antonin Scalia were bff's.
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Jan 8, 2018 14:52
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I'm on board with shaming anyone who attends any event at Mar-a-Lago for any reason. Nominally democrat-affilliated just makes it worse.
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Jan 8, 2018 14:53
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Chilichimp posted:Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Antonin Scalia were bff's. And, shockingly enough, that's not a loving positive in her favor.
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Jan 8, 2018 14:54
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Oh Snapple! posted:Republicans and their supposed opposition actually being friends who run in the same social circles is perfectly relevant. Is Paul Pelosi Jr the opposition? Is he a politician? Is he his mother? Hieronymous Alloy posted:I'm on board with shaming anyone who attends any event at Mar-a-Lago for any reason. Nominally democrat-affilliated just makes it worse. Agreed. It's when you start trying to shame their relatives that I'm skeptical.
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Jan 8, 2018 14:56
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Hieronymous Alloy posted:I'm on board with shaming anyone who attends any event at Mar-a-Lago for any reason. Nominally democrat-affilliated just makes it worse. OK, so shame Pelosi's kid, but I don't think you'll see Pelosi herself down there for any reason.
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Jan 8, 2018 15:14
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Alter Ego posted:OK, so shame Pelosi's kid, but I don't think you'll see Pelosi herself down there for any reason. Oh, this attainder works corruption of blood! I just wanted to say that phrase
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Jan 8, 2018 15:16
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If you think that the political elite (and their families for that matter) on both sides of the aisle mingling with their ostensible opponents is just some harmless nothingburger, you definitely need some more class analysis in your life.
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Jan 8, 2018 15:18
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cis autodrag posted:I don't know if you have this experience, but I'll point out a look someone is giving me and my own companions will try to argue with me that I'm just reading into it. I've had friends and loved ones don't even. No matter how much they get it they never get it. It's called paranoia. (USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST) (USER WAS PUT ON PROBATION FOR THIS POST)
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Jan 8, 2018 15:19
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Cerebral Bore posted:If you think that the political elite (and their families for that matter) on both sides of the aisle mingling with their ostensible opponents is just some harmless nothingburger, you definitely need some more class analysis in your life. Considering all R and D politicians are pro wrestler level kayfabers cutting promos on each other who go backstage and pat each other on the back while they gently caress trafficked kids, any progress which involves the Democratic party beyond full purging and reform is no progress. It's inhumane and racist to support either major American party.
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Jan 8, 2018 15:21
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Oh Snapple! posted:And, shockingly enough, that's not a loving positive in her favor. Can you share with us your pro/con list of RBG. I'm sure the rest of the thread would like to discuss it further.
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Jan 8, 2018 15:24
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Under the vegetable posted:Considering all R and D politicians are pro wrestler level kayfabers cutting promos on each other who go backstage and pat each other on the back while they gently caress trafficked kids Under the vegetable posted:It's called paranoia.  "You people seeing racism/sexism/bigotry everywhere are weird paranoids. Whereas I, the extremely smart and mentally sound poster, believe that every politician is a secret pedophile."
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Jan 8, 2018 15:30
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All this is further proof that elections and party affiliations are just theatre to make us think we can change something with votes and keep us placated while the rich rob us blind.
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Jan 8, 2018 15:45
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Under the vegetable posted:Considering all R and D politicians are pro wrestler level kayfabers cutting promos on each other who go backstage and pat each other on the back while they gently caress trafficked kids, any progress which involves the Democratic party beyond full purging and reform is no progress. It's inhumane and racist to support either major American party. 
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Jan 8, 2018 15:45
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WampaLord posted:
It's almost as if the organizing principle was justifying disengagement and slacktivism over activism!
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Jan 8, 2018 15:49
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