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Stormgale posted:I think it's interesting to look how over watch seems to be a very deep attempt of having cake and eating it too, with how all the character stuff is in comics and the arena shooter feels almost like a different universe. TF2 is pretty much the exact same way tho.
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Jan 8, 2018 00:10
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business hammocks posted:Hardly anybody from Star Wars has any kind of romantic or erotic dimension at all. Who aside from like Han Solo and Padme desire anything beyond platonic companionship? Maybe Lando? Luke really wanted Leia until he found out the awful truth. Never forget that they kissed really hard in Empire.
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Jan 8, 2018 00:10
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John Murdoch posted:TF2 is pretty much the exact same way tho. I mean if TF2 was banking a queer representation on it's comics I'd have the same complaint cause you're right they are the same.
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Jan 8, 2018 00:13
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Roth posted:Most fans invested in Overwatch shipping want Tracer and Widowmaker to be girlfriends for some reason. Monkey see, monkey do 
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Jan 8, 2018 00:14
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Darth Walrus posted:Kylo Ren/Ben Solo being a creepy awkward horndog has been a big part of the new trilogy. I’m genuinely glad Star Wars expanded its cast to include at least one character who has definitely been walked in on while masturbating. This may also describe Luke prior to Empire Strikes Back.
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Jan 8, 2018 00:17
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RareAcumen posted:Monkey see, monkey do Maybe they could make their own comic instead of redrawing a Hark a Vagrant one.
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Jan 8, 2018 00:19
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Stormgale posted:I mean if TF2 was banking a queer representation on it's comics I'd have the same complaint cause you're right they are the same. I guess I just don't see how they'd feature Tracer's gayness any more prominently in-game even if they wanted to.
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Jan 8, 2018 00:23
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John Murdoch posted:I guess I just don't see how they'd feature Tracer's gayness any more prominently in-game even if they wanted to. Maybe it is a limitation of the arena shooter sure, but it is true that the comics and the game kinda live in separate realities (again so does TF2) and I think it's worth looking at / thinking about.
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Jan 8, 2018 00:25
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the game has almost nothing to do with it's own lore, it reminds me of action figure toys with those multi-paragraph lore dumps on the back of the package you throw out before mashing the figures together
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Jan 8, 2018 00:59
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AriadneThread posted:the game has almost nothing to do with it's own lore, it reminds me of action figure toys with those multi-paragraph lore dumps on the back of the package you throw out before mashing the figures together Representation is important and a lot of people do like what OW is doing in that regard, but it's worth being at least a little dubious about the motives of a corporation stamping 'is gay' on the back of one of their gi joe boxes. In a way the actually-progressive thing is the way many lgbt people hold OW up. It becomes a positive thing by way of being made into a place for people with those identities to commune, and a place to discuss those ideas. Like, you could be cynical and say people are being exploited for the sake of a video game sale, but even if they are, isn't the impact observably positive in spite of that? I'm reminded of the relatively fun and joyful nature of the 'babadook is lgbt' stuff. Like, an accident happened at Netflix, and people ran with it and used it as a way of expressing those ideas anyway. The creation of little communities like that is nice, and fun. Despite JK Rowling intending almost none of it, the queer readings of Harry Potter have probably been vastly useful for giving young people a way of communicating and considering their actual feelings, even if barely any of it was 'canon'.
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Jan 8, 2018 01:21
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AriadneThread posted:the game has almost nothing to do with it's own lore, it reminds me of action figure toys with those multi-paragraph lore dumps on the back of the package you throw out before mashing the figures together The game has tons to do with its own lore, it's just the gamePLAY is removed from the lore, so as to allow you to play any character you want at any time. The levels are jampacked full of contextual storytelling, worldbuilding and a pretty hefty amount of characterization for a ton of the cast. The same can be said about the dialogue, both individual lines and the lines shared between characters. I think the claim that the game and lore/comics might as well be different worlds is a big overreach, especially compared to TF2. EDIT: This isn't to deny Activision Blizzard's obvious hope to have their cake and eat it too by keeping things low-key and depending more on external sources outside the game. It's just to say I don't think it goes as far as is being claimed in this discussion. If it was they would have never added the in-game reference to Tracers girlfriend in the moon mission. It would have been very easy to leave that out and keep it in the comics, but they made the token gesture. Is it a cowardly gesture designed to piss as few homophobes off as possible? Yes. Should they have put a big gaudy spray of Tracer and her girlfriend making out in the game by now? Probably. Sanguinia fucked around with this message at 01:28 on Jan 8, 2018 |
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Jan 8, 2018 01:23
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I feel like there is a personality type that gets really into the bios printed on the back of the blister package and reverently integrates them into their childhood play. I feel like they eventually become the kind that quits opening the package altogether and starts hanging them up on the wall.
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Jan 8, 2018 01:23
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Hbomberguy posted:Despite JK Rowling intending almost none of it, the queer readings of Harry Potter have probably been vastly useful for giving young people a way of communicating and considering their actual feelings, even if barely any of it was 'canon'. Didn't she like find those fan readings and whatnot then do all that she could to squash them in one of the books or something?
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Jan 8, 2018 01:25
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Sanguinia posted:The game has tons to do with its own lore, it's just the gamePLAY is removed from the lore, so as to allow you to play any character you want at any time. The levels are jampacked full of contextual storytelling, worldbuilding and a pretty hefty amount of characterization for a ton of the cast. The same can be said about the dialogue, both individual lines and the lines shared between characters. I think the claim that the game and lore/comics might as well be different worlds is a big overreach, especially compared to TF2. yea Blizzcon, the comapny's huge expo for fans to show off poo poo like WoW's next expansion literally gets tons of people hyped to watch movies explaining backstories and poo poo with the VA introducing it and all, and has fans super eager to see poo poo like legendary skins that may be bits from the character's past/lore/whatever just as much as they are for 'haha neat it's a Bowie reference'. There's a lot to talk about OW fandom, yea a lot of us are business hammocks posted:I feel like there is a personality type that gets really into the bios printed on the back of the blister package and reverently integrates them into their childhood play. I feel like they eventually become the kind that quits opening the package altogether and starts hanging them up on the wall. that but also a lot of us just kinda genuinely appreciate that our fun shooty game takes genuine effort to make a world around the shootman actions and boiling it down to just 'stamping gay on a lootbox' is kinda really dumb. It's cool to not like it, no one's gonna make you watch a fuckin video or whatever, but it's not just some throwaway blizzard farts out and six superfans eat up. This kinda feels like a weird way to handwave an actually moderately big thing where a major game company has a major IP where a canonical open lesbian is one of the most iconic faces of it. Why does dismissing this as just gay being stamped on an action figure matter so much? Does that somehow make Sherlock's gay baiting less gross or something?
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Jan 8, 2018 01:34
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What makes those Blizzard Overwatch comics more official than fan comics, when neither have any effect on the actual story of the game, which is that two teams go into a map and shoot each other before doing it all over again minutes later?
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Jan 8, 2018 02:25
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I Before E posted:What makes those Blizzard Overwatch comics more official than fan comics, when neither have any effect on the actual story of the game, which is that two teams go into a map and shoot each other before doing it all over again minutes later? I dunno man the shared illusion that any fiction has inherent worth and weight just like what makes DC's batman comics have more weight than fan comics even if DC is constantly resetting the status quo and undoing storylines?
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Jan 8, 2018 02:28
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The canon is basically whatever you want it to be but it is nice when the devs themselves include minority representation
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Jan 8, 2018 02:32
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like are we gonna have to debate the inherent weight of fiction as an art form because we don't want to agree that yea it's nice that a major game company has a lesbian as a mascot for their game or what, this is the most loving pedantic thing.
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Jan 8, 2018 02:35
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While I can't fault people for wanting more, because we are nowhere near parity in terms of depicting relationships, it also seems a little weird to me that people are going "It's not REALLY progressive!" when a company decides to make a character gay, given that companies are notoriously risk-averse and have to market to the entirety of an audience. Like maybe it's just because I live in the south and am thus very, very aware of the people that will get super mad about it all, but I feel like some progressive is pretty great. Would I like more? Yes. Would I ask for more? Absolutely. But given the cultural factors of corporate America, and of games in specific, I am not going to turn my nose up at something that doesn't quite hit my preferred mark.
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Jan 8, 2018 02:36
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sexpig by night posted:I dunno man the shared illusion that any fiction has inherent worth and weight just like what makes DC's batman comics have more weight than fan comics even if DC is constantly resetting the status quo and undoing storylines? Those Batman comics are paratext to Batman movies, which unlike Overwatch have internal characterization, where the characters do and say things that illustrate some sort of identity and internality. The better example is Batman action figures: an action figure is Batman because it has a bat on it, everything else about what it is and does is up to you. In the same fashion, the only concrete thing about Overwatch characters is their outfits and that they shoot each other, so you're free to create your own internality and identity. They are whatever you want them to be, straight, gay, cis, trans, the field is open. What, then, is the use in "official" characterizations? They're one interpretation, delivered in the same sort of paratext other fan interpretations are. Canon is a phantasm, throw it away.
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Jan 8, 2018 02:57
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business hammocks posted:I’m genuinely glad Star Wars expanded its cast to include at least one character who has definitely been walked in on while masturbating. This may also describe Luke prior to Empire Strikes Back. 
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Jan 8, 2018 03:08
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I Before E posted:Those Batman comics are paratext to Batman movies, which unlike Overwatch have internal characterization, where the characters do and say things that illustrate some sort of identity and internality. 
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Jan 8, 2018 03:18
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This is exactly as Canon as any star wars movie
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Jan 8, 2018 03:23
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I Before E posted:This is exactly as Canon as any star wars movie Star Wars is the only canon Star Wars movie.
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Jan 8, 2018 03:24
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Absurd Alhazred posted:Hardware Wars is the only canon Star Wars movie.
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Jan 8, 2018 03:41
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I Before E posted:Those Batman comics are paratext to Batman movies, which unlike Overwatch have internal characterization, where the characters do and say things that illustrate some sort of identity and internality. Overwatch DOES have internal characterization though. The characters have preprogrammed dialogue that plays in certain in-game circumstances that are used to illustrate both their personalities internally and their relationships with other characters, objects, events and settings within their world. The player has no control over these dialogue bits playing, they are automatic and reactive to circumstances that arise organically from gameplay, so as to directly signal to the player that whatever thing they have done has story-related significance, in direct contrast to all the times there is no special voice line and it thus doesn't. Overwatch conveys its world and characters in a weird way, and it has totally uncoupled gameplay from narrative (although even that has exceptions, such as the Uprising in-game event) but that does not make the character's complete ciphers.
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Jan 8, 2018 03:46
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ymFxkFfIhU 
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Jan 8, 2018 03:50
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Sanguinia posted:Overwatch DOES have internal characterization though. The characters have preprogrammed dialogue that plays in certain in-game circumstances that are used to illustrate both their personalities internally and their relationships with other characters, objects, events and settings within their world. The player has no control over these dialogue bits playing, they are automatic and reactive to circumstances that arise organically from gameplay, so as to directly signal to the player that whatever thing they have done has story-related significance, in direct contrast to all the times there is no special voice line and it thus doesn't. "There's a snake in my boot!" E: but to be serious for a moment, you are my favorite deputy
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Jan 8, 2018 04:26
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OH GOD! I don't know what's worse, the 70's cheese of the laziness.
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Jan 8, 2018 04:30
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BigRed0427 posted:OH GOD! I don't know what's worse, the 70's cheese of the laziness. It's very Mad Magazine, but the clearly cobbled together props are the real stars.
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Jan 8, 2018 04:32
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I Before E posted:"There's a snake in my boot!" I figured that was going to be your response, which is why I was careful to point out that the player in Overwatch HAS NO CONTROL over if the voice clips play. They are automatic and reactive, triggering only of a story-relevant thing happens. Do you not think that creates a distinction between context that the player has total control over, like a toy saying lines when you pull a string? With a toy you and your imagination control everything, you can choose to never pull the string if you don't want to, but in Overwatch the string pulls itself based on how you play with it. If you have Woody jump into Buzz's spaceship, nothing happens, but if you put him on Bullseye's back and jump the Canyon, THIS Woody can tell that you've done that and reacts accordingly. To me, that's an entirely different ballgame.
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Jan 8, 2018 04:38
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I haven't played Overwatch, so I can't talk about specific lines, but because of the structure of the game, being an arena shooter where every instance is interchangable, Overwatch the game is incapable of and uninterested in exploring character relationships through the game itself through anything other than implication through these voice lines, allowing side stories, video, comics, text, etc, created both by unaffiliated fans and by company-associated artists(who may or may not be fans themselves) to explore these relationships instead. What I question is the idea that side stories created by these company artists do or should hold more weight than side stories created by unaffiliated fan artists. The only difference is that if these unaffiliated fan artists attempted to sell their work, they could be sued for it. Canon, then, is the capitalist invention of intellectual property law entrenching itself in the mind as a fixed idea, a phantasm that should be thrown away.
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Jan 8, 2018 04:56
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Bunch of Hanzo mains up in here New video up by Zarya main https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wtPZ96oHH-4
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Jan 8, 2018 05:11
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this is such a weird convo. "Overwatch's representation is pointless because it's like stamping 'is gay' on the box of a doll" "Well they actually do a lot to build a canon around the game even if the game itself is rooty tooty point and shooty." "Canon doesn't even loving exist you capitalist stooge." I mean, poo poo, I don't even disagree, but that's a bit zero to sixty.
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Jan 8, 2018 05:13
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HBomb, drat you for ruining my hopes for the future Doctor Who. I was hoping that the escape from Moffat would be salvation, but then you showed that goddamn Cyberwoman.
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Jan 8, 2018 05:14
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Moffat is good actually. He has had his lovely periods but on the whole he's good. The assertion that the 11th and 12th Doctors get "less development" than 9 and 10 is absurd.
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Jan 8, 2018 05:15
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I forgot that loving hand
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Jan 8, 2018 05:16
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DoctorWhat posted:Moffat is good actually. He has had his lovely periods but on the whole he's good. The assertion that the 11th and 12th Doctors get "less development" than 9 and 10 is absurd. They did more with 9 in his one season than 11 had in the run
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Jan 8, 2018 05:17
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I Before E posted:Canon, then, is the capitalist invention of intellectual property law entrenching itself in the mind as a fixed idea, a phantasm that should be thrown away. Well, that IS why the law recognizes the concept of the Public Domain. There comes a point where even capitalism recognizes that it is better to allow someone other than Arthur Conan Doyle's estate to create new stories for Sherlock Holmes. Of course, Canon then just takes on a new form, whereby rather than a central identity controlled by a single creative force, there is a kaleidoscope of individual, fragmented 'interpretations,' of the character. However, even a kaleidoscope is constrained by its lens. Isn't disposing of the entire idea of an at least initial 'canon,' for an artistic creation opening up the opportunity for the tyranny of the majority, or worse vocal minority? Would we want to live in a world where because we've thrown away the 'phantasm,' of creative control that populism can wholly dictate creativity? Don't entire artistic disciplines, such as deconstructionism, lose their meaning when there is no "true," version to tear down or re-contextualize? ... this post went in a weird direction. sexpig by night posted:this is such a weird convo. IBE knows that I'm a ivory tower douchebag who's in love with the sound of my own voice (in text form) so it's entirely possible he's digging this rabbit hole just to see how far down it I will follow him. Sanguinia fucked around with this message at 05:22 on Jan 8, 2018 |
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Jan 8, 2018 05:18
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sexpig by night posted:They did more with 9 in his one season than 11 had in the run I mean that's what happens when you put the acting chops of Christopher Eccleston up against Matt Smith. And 11's later years are definitely Moffat's lowest point.
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Jan 8, 2018 05:19
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