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as someone who works retail; that is by design. the entire wage system was designed to keep workers docile and prevent political dissent, or at the least political dissent that threatens the hegemony of the 1%
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Jan 8, 2018 05:15
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Senju Kannon posted:as someone who works retail; that is by design. the entire wage system was designed to keep workers docile and prevent political dissent, or at the least political dissent that threatens the hegemony of the 1% Don't get me wrong: I know this. For almost ten years i was really active in socialist/student politics. I'm tired of fighting. We aren't all heroes. Some of us need to work, to till our fields, so others may fight too.
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Jan 8, 2018 05:20
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Ceciltron posted:Like say what you want about our responsibilities to others but when you work 40 hours a week, try to support a wife and make a future for yourself, worrying about whether the american catholic church is doing enough for universal health care is real far from your mind. Then you live for yourself, and not for your fellow man.
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Jan 8, 2018 05:23
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Ceciltron posted:Like say what you want about our responsibilities to others but when you work 40 hours a week, try to support a wife and make a future for yourself, worrying about whether the american catholic church is doing enough for universal health care is real far from your mind. I understand you're not American but the fight for health justice is all of ours. It is disgusting and un-Christian that healthcare is (in the US) only for those wealthy enough to afford it. Just as an anecdote, most of my students are visibly missing teeth. That's not only an aesthetic issues, it's quality of life. There is absolutely no reason why these people can't have a bare minimum of dental care. I sort of resent the idea that "I have a ton of other things to worry about, why should I be bothered with <poo poo conditions for other people>." I work with Native Americans. They have it bad. Many, many on this Earth have it worse. quote:Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me. There is always someone worse off than you who requires your help as good Christians. Ceciltron posted:Don't get me wrong: I know this. For almost ten years i was really active in socialist/student politics. I'm tired of fighting. We aren't all heroes. Some of us need to work, to till our fields, so others may fight too. Take care of your own, but also take care of those suffering. At the risk of judging where it's not my place, you sound resigned to selfishness. I understand you simply may not have the means or time to help those less fortunate, but that is your duty. Don't give up the fight.
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Jan 8, 2018 05:25
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Just because I do not go out and weep and gnash my teeth and tear my hear and rend my garments does not mean i am not incensed by injustice. I just have nothing left to give. Immigration is costing me every penny i have. I work almost every day, even sundays, and the other days I'm so tired I just sleep. Yet you would even take away what little comfort I have in my faith because others suffer, and I cannot help them? How cruel are you to do this? The only selfishness I have is about 20$ a week for a six pack of beer. Y'all judgemental pricks.
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Jan 8, 2018 05:31
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You can offer up prayers to the less fortunate even if you're not materially able to help them. You're treading dangerously close on "you're not a real Christian..." territory here.
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Jan 8, 2018 05:43
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Ceciltron posted:Just because I do not go out and weep and gnash my teeth and tear my hear and rend my garments does not mean i am not incensed by injustice. I just have nothing left to give. Immigration is costing me every penny i have. I work almost every day, even sundays, and the other days I'm so tired I just sleep. Yet you would even take away what little comfort I have in my faith because others suffer, and I cannot help them? How cruel are you to do this? The only selfishness I have is about 20$ a week for a six pack of beer. I'm not judging, and I hope I don't offend by saying I'm praying for you and your family. My point is that we should always consider those worse off than ourselves. Not that you should be guilted into harming your family economically, but that the idea of "yeah well I can't be bothered because I have too much to deal with personally" is giving into selfishness.
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Jan 8, 2018 05:45
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The Phlegmatist posted:You can offer up prayers to the less fortunate even if you're not materially able to help them. donald trump's not a real christian tho so there is a place for that kinda talk
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Jan 8, 2018 05:52
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Senju Kannon posted:donald trump's not a real christian tho so there is a place for that kinda talk I agree but am not sure how that's relevant
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Jan 8, 2018 05:54
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that's not fair, trump was very influenced by his experiences attending church* as a child *pastor: norman vincent peale
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Jan 8, 2018 05:54
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oh great another slapfight in the liturgical christianity thread 
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Jan 8, 2018 05:55
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happyphage posted:oh great another slapfight in the liturgical christianity thread ahem, we've two thousand years of slapfight tradition
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Jan 8, 2018 05:57
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Pellisworth posted:I agree but am not sure how that's relevant trying to change the subject from posturing by two people fueled by self righteousness it's kinda weird being on the outside of such an exchange and i don't really know how to deal with it
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Jan 8, 2018 05:59
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StashAugustine posted:that's not fair, trump was very influenced by his experiences attending church* as a child what hath the prosperity gospel birthed
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Jan 8, 2018 06:00
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Josef bugman posted:The first part of this is the bit I don't get. I am a horrible person, I fully accept that I am the sort of person cockroaches have to lean down to spit on, but putting any sort of belief that this is because of a higher power seems unfair. If you think you're worth less than cockroaches( cockroaches are amazing creatures, though), it could be a sign that you have serious issues, and I wouldn't let religion into it. My problem is that my own ego makes very bad plans. Since I stopped listening to them and prayed for guidance daily, I make good plans. I extremely rarely I let anyone down( except myself, but that's the actual psychic illnesses talking), and when I do, my guidance instructs me to make amends.
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Jan 8, 2018 10:25
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Worthleast posted:Oh no what have we done Let me say this to all the non-theists in this thread: you have all made me a better theist. Tuxedo Catfish posted:- I'm much too angry at the universe now, when I'm just thinking of it as an inanimate, meaningless accident. If I thought of it as a deliberate creation, this feeling would probably eat me alive. Theodicy doesn't help. No doubt the situation around the world today is maddening, and even to theists, too. But without asking whether you believe in an ultimate meaning or the ultimate meaning, do you believe your actions have a meaning? Or put differently, is it possible for us today to do something to make life better in the future? I hope that by saying you have become a better atheist, it means you take your actions with greater deliberateness, like folks such as Bertrand Russell and Noam Chomsky (appear to) do. Cythereal posted:I endure and press on. I always have. I see that you endure, and I feel as though I am witnessing a spirit of perseverance that is greater than any single life, and that overcomes all manners of adversity. To me, it is as observably real as photosynthesis sustains plants. I'm reminded that Jesus said to a sinner, "Neither do I condemn you." I know that you can be doing much worse than taking care of your obligations. Thank you for that. I believe you are not a heartless person, and I'm not here to antagonize you.
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Jan 8, 2018 10:53
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Pellisworth posted:ahem, we've two thousand years of slapfight tradition Just schism and be done with it already. Ain't nothing wrong with a good, healthy schism. As the proverb goes in Dune, chop off your diseased and broken hand and pronounce your arm complete because it ends here.
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Jan 8, 2018 15:00
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Senju Kannon posted:donald trump's not a real christian tho so there is a place for that kinda talk That has nothing to do with this conversation, so no; there is no place for that kinda talk in this conversation.
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Jan 8, 2018 15:57
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Slimy Hog posted:That has nothing to do with this conversation, so no; there is no place for that kinda talk in this conversation.
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Jan 8, 2018 16:02
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:There was a time in my life where I was seriously thinking about converting, it's just that at the end of the day no matter how much I like rules, ritual, and the sense that there's a moral order to the universe, there are too many obstacles: Have you ever read any Antoine de Saint-Exupery? He left the Church for similar reasons and has some magnificent writings in this vein. Edit: I have some super strong reservations about the Modern Catholic Church myself. Apologies if it seems like I'm trying to beat you over the head or anything. This thread is supposed to make us better people. Worthleast fucked around with this message at 16:16 on Jan 8, 2018 |
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Jan 8, 2018 16:14
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HEY GUNS posted:At least one of the people yelling at Ceciltron for just living his life is a literal Communist who has been told before to keep politics out of this thread, so...¯\_(ツ)_/¯ if you're referring to me, i'm an anarchist not a communist and also an ex liberation theologian current buddhist heavily influenced by a japanese buddhist monk who killed himself in prison after being part of a frameup of socialist intellectuals during the meiji era so like the idea that politics and religion are somehow separate sectors of human life where there is nothing connecting them is to me a modernist invention and itself a political ideology so like i don't know what you want from me
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Jan 8, 2018 16:14
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Senju Kannon posted:i don't know what you want from me Punctuation
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Jan 8, 2018 16:35
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Ceciltron posted:Just because I do not go out and weep and gnash my teeth and tear my hear and rend my garments does not mean i am not incensed by injustice. I just have nothing left to give. Immigration is costing me every penny i have. I work almost every day, even sundays, and the other days I'm so tired I just sleep. Yet you would even take away what little comfort I have in my faith because others suffer, and I cannot help them? How cruel are you to do this? The only selfishness I have is about 20$ a week for a six pack of beer. I'll keep you and your family in my prayers.
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Jan 8, 2018 16:41
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Slimy Hog posted:Punctuation i'm not hitting shift for no man
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Jan 8, 2018 16:42
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Hey, turns out there is a new iteration of the thread! ...and people are fighting, just like the time the last one was closed. Anyways, girlfriend took me to listen to some gospel choir yesterday. Good thing it was free, because the music was meh. At least the church was nice, what with being part of the first university ever established in Lithuania. If your church doesn't have statues, it don't rate. Shame about all those churches back in Prague with basically no faithful to use them fully...
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Jan 8, 2018 17:53
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JcDent posted:Hey, turns out there is a new iteration of the thread! Until the second coming, we travail in a vale of shrieking and tears.
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Jan 8, 2018 18:33
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Caufman posted:No doubt the situation around the world today is maddening, and even to theists, too. But without asking whether you believe in an ultimate meaning or the ultimate meaning, do you believe your actions have a meaning? Or put differently, is it possible for us today to do something to make life better in the future? I hope that by saying you have become a better atheist, it means you take your actions with greater deliberateness, like folks such as Bertrand Russell and Noam Chomsky (appear to) do. I think meaning is something people experience, and doesn't really have an existence beyond that. I think that struggling to assert meaning, irrationally and with full consciousness of that irrationality, against the reality of death and time, is a worthy task for a human being. In terms of deliberation, yeah. I'm very much a product of Western culture and Western moral thinking is to a very large degree Christian thinking, responses (even hostile ones) to Christian thinking, and Christian responses to and carryover of Greek thinking. Religious faith provides specific solutions to problems like "what do you base your ethics on" and "what is the appropriate relationship of a human being to existence at large" and I don't think you have to agree with the solutions every time to find them useful in ordering your thoughts. If anything, the sense of opposition makes it easier to find the exceptions, the things that I need to work out on my own, than if I were, say, just reading Aristotle or John Stuart Mill and nodding along. Worthleast posted:Have you ever read any Antoine de Saint-Exupery? He left the Church for similar reasons and has some magnificent writings in this vein. I haven't; I've accumulated a pretty extensive reading list from this and previous incarnations of this thread but grad school generally means that it grows faster than it shrinks. I'll add him to the list.  e: actually I have read The Little Prince, but this was ages ago Worthleast posted:Edit: I have some super strong reservations about the Modern Catholic Church myself. Apologies if it seems like I'm trying to beat you over the head or anything. This thread is supposed to make us better people. You have nothing to apologize to me for. As long as I'm here, it's only right that I engage with the thread on its own terms; if it got to the point where I had nothing to contribute or nothing to gain from doing things that way, by my own assessment or yours, I wouldn't stay. Tuxedo Catfish fucked around with this message at 20:57 on Jan 8, 2018 |
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Jan 8, 2018 20:50
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Tuxedo Catfish posted:I think that struggling to assert meaning, irrationally and with full consciousness of that irrationality, against the reality of death and time, is a worthy task for a human being. Aristotle argues that this is what separates man from the other animals. If you're ever up here in Frostbite Falls I'll buy you a beer.
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Jan 8, 2018 21:05
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Tuxedo Fish, if Catholicism doesn't do it for you, just listen to some talks by Metropolitan Kallistos Ware. His sweet, sweet, dulcet tones, and charming stories of time spend in obscure Greek island monasteries are enough to charm anyone. 
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Jan 8, 2018 21:18
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Tangentially related to the conversation at hand. Yesterday I've spent a whole night reading about Mormonism. I already knew some things, but I dove into how Mormon theology works and what problems it faces. And it's amazing how they, mere 180 years since their religion was born, have to basically reinvent theology to examine Biblical inspiration in context of their new canonical books, study Papal infallibility to properly define how and when their prophets speak as prophets, and many other things. For the longest time the tactic in the most prominent Mormon denomination (and there are plenty of splinter groups, of course) was good 'old' Biblical literalism with emphasis on private revelation, coupled with Mormon archeology, and those just don't cut anymore, especially when it comes to rectifying numerous anachronisms and inconsistencies in the Book of Mormon. Mainstream Christians can explain or at least attempt to explain why Old Testament isn't always historically correct, but the Book of Mormon by all accounts was practically dictated to Smith by God, and there is no semiotic or textological framework to clarify why Smith at length quoted KJV with obvious translation errors. Mormons are radical revivalists, they believe that the Church stopped existing entirely in the Old World at some point. So they can't even use any ready solutions for their problems that exist in mainstream Christianity. They can't whip out Saint Augustin, for them he's a heretic. We're that different. On top of that many more peculiar and questionable events in Mormon history were kind of kept if not in secret, but very rarely discussed even in seminaries (granted, from what I understand, it's more common for Mormons to attend a seminary, even for people who don't want to pursue a religious career, so it's more like a Sunday school for adults). You probably know the bit about Joseph Smith translating golden tablets using a stone in a hat from South Park, but apparently until very recently, this wasn't a widely held perception within Mormonism, and instead in temples and books Smith was portrayed almost exclusively carefully studying golden pages and patiently scribing his translation on a parchment. So now Mormon apologists are faced with the issue of young people learning this stuff on the internet, and there is no existing apologia for the prophets at the very roots of the movement who believed in divining rods and magic stones. And that's not even touching the Book of Abraham, which to anyone outside Mormonism would appear to be just Joseph Smith improvising a Biblical narrative based on images in some random Egyptian scrolls. It's very strange to have a religion, whose birth is well-documented by eye-witnesses. There are documents written by Smith himself that heavily imply that he initially was on board with Trinitarianism, and only later shifted toward viewing God the Father and Jesus as two distinct beings, which is also evident by his revisions to Mormon scriptures over the years. Some Mormon splinter groups are actually Trinitarian now, and they have their own headache over how to explain Smith's change of heart. And the craziest thing is almost all Mormon apologists are completely rogue, because the Church doesn't want to canonise any explanation at this point, especially considering some of them are pretty out there. One of the more comical ones is explaining that horses prominently featured in the Book of Mormon partially set in pre-Columbian America were actually tapirs. And there are, like, huge Biblical battles in the Book of Mormon, with carriages. And elephants. In conclusion, Mormonism is a religion of contrasts. Explore religions outside of your own. (all of the above is obviously just my impression based on reading a bunch of Mormon websites and forums, so I may be wrong about stuff)
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Jan 8, 2018 21:55
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Worthleast posted:Aristotle argues that this is what separates man from the other animals. The Calypsos of Bokonon posted:Fish got to swim
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Jan 8, 2018 22:01
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Paladinus posted:good I have trouble researching some of the more... controversial... claims against the Mormons. Specifically, what really happened in the church in regards to race relations. So much on the internet is unreliable and when I asked a Mormon classmate of mine in high school he, a person of color, said it was all nonsense and untrue. So I still have no idea. 
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Jan 8, 2018 22:10
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Thirteen Orphans posted:I have trouble researching some of the more... controversial... claims against the Mormons. Specifically, what really happened in the church in regards to race relations. So much on the internet is unreliable and when I asked a Mormon classmate of mine in high school he, a person of color, said it was all nonsense and untrue. So I still have no idea. It is a complicated topic, yes, and it's mostly related to prophetical infallibility. The Book of Mormon does have a tiny fragment where God punishes the wicked by making their skin black, but as far as I can tell, it's not about people from Africa or black people in general, so at least the scripture doesn't necessary presuppose that black people are inherently inferior. However, some prophets, and and more notably the second Mormon prophet Brigham Young, taught that black people bear the Curse of Cain, and therefore can't be priests. Sometimes even literally ex cathedra. It's something many young Mormons struggle with (again, based on my on what I've seen on Mormon forums), and LCS does very little to help. For example, an essay on the official LCS website (a genre of ecclesial proclamations that I think only exists in Mormonism) states the following. quote:In 1852, President Brigham Young publicly announced that men of black African descent could no longer be ordained to the priesthood, though thereafter blacks continued to join the Church through baptism and receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost. Following the death of Brigham Young, subsequent Church presidents restricted blacks from receiving the temple endowment or being married in the temple. Over time, Church leaders and members advanced many theories to explain the priesthood and temple restrictions. None of these explanations is accepted today as the official doctrine of the Church. Some sermons and writing of Young on the topic are quite passionate to say the least, and are explicitly presented as teaching, but the essay doesn't even attempt to explain how a prophet could make such a huge mistake and what it could mean regarding obedience to what the current prophet teaches. For such a relatively small religion it creates a lot of vacuum of faith and trust, especially among younger people. So right now the official stance of LCS is, indeed, that any man of any race can be a priest, but they really shy away from explaining how ban on black priesthood could be an official policy openly endorsed by prophets for quite some time. Because they don't know how to explain it, from what I understand.
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Jan 8, 2018 22:44
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Paladinus posted:It is a complicated topic, yes, and it's mostly related to prophetical infallibility. The Book of Mormon does have a tiny fragment where God punishes the wicked by making their skin black, but as far as I can tell, it's not about people from Africa or black people in general, so at least the scripture doesn't necessary presuppose that black people are inherently inferior. However, some prophets, and and more notably the second Mormon prophet Brigham Young, taught that black people bear the Curse of Cain, and therefore can't be priests. Sometimes even literally ex cathedra. Oh, interesting. Especially about BY. I tried to google it, but turned up empty, what is LCS?
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Jan 8, 2018 22:49
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Thirteen Orphans posted:Oh, interesting. Especially about BY. I tried to google it, but turned up empty, what is LCS? Oops, it's supposed to be LDS, of course. No idea how I could mistype that twice. They are the largest Mormon denomination.
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Jan 8, 2018 23:03
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Paladinus posted:Oops, it's supposed to be LDS, of course. No idea how I could mistype that twice. They are the largest Mormon denomination. Ah! Because you said it twice I assumed it was something within the Latter-Day Saint church, not the church itself.
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Jan 8, 2018 23:06
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Paladinus posted:Oops, it's supposed to be LDS, of course. No idea how I could mistype that twice. They are the largest Mormon denomination. There's more than one Mormon denomination?
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Jan 8, 2018 23:06
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Slimy Hog posted:There's more than one Mormon denomination? Yeah there are smaller denominations in the Midwest where Smith and his followers stayed for a while before being chased further west. There are also splinter fundamentalist LDS groups, famously the ones who run polygamist compounds and such.
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Jan 8, 2018 23:08
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Senju Kannon posted:i don't know what you want from me
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Jan 8, 2018 23:17
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Slimy Hog posted:There's more than one Mormon denomination?
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Jan 8, 2018 23:21
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