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DalaranJ posted:I’m mostly concerned with the obtuseness. I understand the need for it being lightweight. As far as I can recall, I think the intent behind the cards was largely to make resolution more of a group endeavor than just rolling a die, allowing players to support or interfere with a given task based on their own desires. It also was intended to give the tension of the "thrill of the reveal" with it. The selection of tokens is probably the biggest part, since that's where the GM can influence the pacing / outcome the most, and where players collectively work out an outcome. That all said, the procedural resolution system is probably the weakest element in the game, since a lot of people find its raw chance unsatisfying. I'd suggest giving it a shot, at least, since the number of times you do procedural resolution in a given session is slight once people acclimate to the system - usually no more than once or twice a session in my personal experience. Generally, procedurals are intended for climaxes and major endeavors, and you don't need to call for them very often. In the base setting, a procedural would be best if you're all going out on a major hunt when the tribe is starving, but if Axehandle goes out on a solo hunt in his spare time during a season of plenty, he can probably just declare a result as long as the GM feels the declared result is appropriate. All IMO, of course, but I used to run Hillfolk demos for Pelgrane. However, you can replace it with any other resolution system, really, though I'd recommend something really light and story-based, like FATE Accelerated or Risus. Having a complex resolution system will bend the game towards its own conceits. Dramatic scenes are absolutely the meat of the game and should usually be the primary driver behind the narrative you're building, with GM intervention and procedurals being there to present new twists and dilemmas to fuel further dramatic conflict.
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Jan 8, 2018 19:46
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Collaboration is always good, except when you're playing Godlike or PATROL
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Jan 8, 2018 19:47
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Serf posted:who does this? who wants this? this is pure d&d as played by 6th graders thinking. the point of the game is not to have some sort of mony haul adventure where you grab all the cool poo poo and then you're done. you put interesting characters in dangerous situations and then see what happens to them Ok, fair enough, but the players have to act like that. Otherwise why not walk into their heist carrying a banner and banging a big bass drum? quote:you're confusing "be a fan of the pcs" with "give them everything forever and never challenge them". fans want to see their favorite characters overcome challenges, not be rewarded at every turn. being a fan requires putting characters through the wringer. Overcome! Not fail to! I'm not talking about when the GM decides there's some goblins there for the PCs to fight. I'm talking about after the dice are rolled and rolled low and the PCs are disarmed on the floor with goblin spears at their throats. Do they get run through? A fan wouldn't want that. But if the GM acts on that basis - and nothing can ever prevent them from doing so - then the PCs will know from the beginning they're in no real danger. Even if they do end up on the floor with spears at their throats, they'll always overcome. And if they'll always overcome, there's not really any challenges, we're just pretending there are. quote:the pcs should always be at risk of failing. and the rules reflect this. there are tons of outcomes that are "failure" and "mixed success". the thing is that "death" is often the least interesting outcome for a roll. pbta and bitd encourage you to come up with something more interesting than that. this can be seen as "bailing out" the pcs, but that's not the intention. you want the characters to keep going (until it just wouldn't be interesting for them to do so), so you challenge them with other outcomes. maybe you get rescued, but now you owe your savior a huge debt. maybe you die but some greater power brings you back but wrong. it requires creativity If those turkeys never come home to roost, how do they mean anything? Great, we owe them a debt, we go on an adventure for them, but if we hadn't then of course we would be going on an adventure anyway because it's what we do.
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Jan 8, 2018 20:01
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hyphz posted:The players would like their PCs to walk out carrying an armload of magic artefacts. If they aren't interested in that, what's the point in playing? Have you ever asked the players what they want out of the game? Because I'm guessing that's not going to be the answer for most people. You're assuming the universal win condition for RPGs is "get all the stuff" and trying to use that as the idea for all the games you run. But the thing is: that's not the universal win condition. You can't apply D&D Thinking to games that aren't D&D and expect it to work.
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Jan 8, 2018 20:02
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Halloween Jack posted:Collaboration is always good, except when you're playing Godlike or PATROL Or Paranoia!
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Jan 8, 2018 20:11
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hyphz posted:Ok, fair enough, but the players have to act like that. Otherwise why not walk into their heist carrying a banner and banging a big bass drum? because sometimes the objective of a score is not to steal things. there are several gang types that aren't interested in stealing stuff. the bravos are all about fighting, and being loud and public is one thing they are good at. hawkers want to sell drugs, and smugglers want to move contraband. not all your missions are going to be about making coin either. the gm is told that coin is something that should be an objective, but there are other things that can come alongside that coin too. find the pcs' hooks and motivations and play to those. give them things that aren't material goods that they want and give them a way to chase them. hyphz posted:Overcome! Not fail to! I'm not talking about when the GM decides there's some goblins there for the PCs to fight. I'm talking about after the dice are rolled and rolled low and the PCs are disarmed on the floor with goblin spears at their throats. Do they get run through? A fan wouldn't want that. But if the GM acts on that basis - and nothing can ever prevent them from doing so - then the PCs will know from the beginning they're in no real danger. Even if they do end up on the floor with spears at their throats, they'll always overcome. And if they'll always overcome, there's not really any challenges, we're just pretending there are. the PCs are in real danger, because as fans who are also responsible for portraying the world honestly, sometimes the players are going to be put in situations where those consequences can be fatal. there's even a harm level 4, "fatal" for when that happens. and as usual, a pc can resist that if they think it isn't the most interesting outcome, but sometimes it is. if that happens, oh well, you played the character's story to an end. now you can make another character and explore them. the thing that you're missing here is that we're all trying to tell a cool story. in cool stories, sometimes characters die. people are aware of that possibility, and they can play into it if they want. if they don't, they won't, and that's fine too. it doesn't mean the challenges and consequences aren't there, it just means this is the tone you want your game to take. there's nothing wrong with that, but you have to understand that it can be played in either direction. hyphz posted:If those turkeys never come home to roost, how do they mean anything? Great, we owe them a debt, we go on an adventure for them, but if we hadn't then of course we would be going on an adventure anyway because it's what we do. do you not understand how context works? if you're paying back someone who saved your life, that recontextualizes the events that are happening in the fiction. and they can have mechanical backing too! maybe your patron demands a cut of the coin. maybe they have lots of enemies and you take more heat, meaning worse entanglements. maybe they demand you go up against a far more powerful faction to accomplish some goal they need done. you can do anything with this setup, as boring or as interesting as you like
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Jan 8, 2018 20:12
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hyphz posted:Overcome! Not fail to! I'm not talking about when the GM decides there's some goblins there for the PCs to fight. I'm talking about after the dice are rolled and rolled low and the PCs are disarmed on the floor with goblin spears at their throats. Do they get run through? A fan wouldn't want that. But if the GM acts on that basis - and nothing can ever prevent them from doing so - then the PCs will know from the beginning they're in no real danger. Even if they do end up on the floor with spears at their throats, they'll always overcome. And if they'll always overcome, there's not really any challenges, we're just pretending there are. Dying is not the only failure condition in rpgs A good death can also be a very appropriate ending for a character.
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Jan 8, 2018 20:13
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hyphz posted:I could only find a beta version that seems to be 7-8 years old and a "pocket edition". I read the pocket edition since it wasn't described as alpha/beta, so maybe I missed a lot of stuff. But as far as I can see it's just a dice game, the actual actions you take never matter. You're encouraged to use certain stats against enemies that are weak to them but since there is no limit on what any stat can do there is no reason to ever not do so.
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Jan 8, 2018 20:13
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hyphz posted:Overcome! Not fail to! I'm not talking about when the GM decides there's some goblins there for the PCs to fight. I'm talking about after the dice are rolled and rolled low and the PCs are disarmed on the floor with goblin spears at their throats. Do they get run through? A fan wouldn't want that. But if the GM acts on that basis - and nothing can ever prevent them from doing so - then the PCs will know from the beginning they're in no real danger. Even if they do end up on the floor with spears at their throats, they'll always overcome. And if they'll always overcome, there's not really any challenges, we're just pretending there are. If only there were more than one GM principle, perhaps this ridiculous situation could have been avoided. Why is "danger" only the threat of death? If the danger you've set up is death, why does the GM action "Follow Through" not apply here? It seems like you're ignoring most of the rules in favor of one paragraph, except you're not even applying that entire paragraph.
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Jan 8, 2018 20:20
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don't mind me, i'm just posting some more info from the blades bookquote:You’ve telegraphed the threat, so go ahead and follow through when it hits. Players have several tools at their disposal to deal with adversity. If they can react in time, they can make an action roll. If they’re hit with trouble, they can resist it. You don’t have to pull your punches! and these are examples of following through on your threats quote:She shoots you, the ball shatters your cheek and the room spins and goes dark and you go sprawling to the floor. Take level 3 harm.
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Jan 8, 2018 20:26
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Serf posted:and these are examples of following through on your threats Right. Now wind back to context. Are these things which would happen in the normal way if this was just a conversation? If not, is it surprising that the RPG conversation isn't a normal conversation and ends up having manipulation in it?
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Jan 8, 2018 20:45
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hyphz posted:Right. Now wind back to context. Are these things which would happen in the normal way if this was just a conversation? If not, is it surprising that the RPG conversation isn't a normal conversation and ends up having manipulation in it? please explain your bullshit and define "manipulation" for the class
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Jan 8, 2018 20:47
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Holy poo poo. This is why people were saying "D&D causes brain damage". You can't imagine telling a fun story with your friends. You broke your own brain. Just chill out.
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Jan 8, 2018 20:52
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hyphz posted:Right. Now wind back to context. Are these things which would happen in the normal way if this was just a conversation? If not, is it surprising that the RPG conversation isn't a normal conversation and ends up having manipulation in it? Every conversation can have manipulation in it. You agree, when you sit down to play this game, to try and minimize it for the goal of a good collaborative story.
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Jan 8, 2018 20:53
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hyphz posted:Right. Now wind back to context. Are these things which would happen in the normal way if this was just a conversation? If not, is it surprising that the RPG conversation isn't a normal conversation and ends up having manipulation in it? I have no idea how your rpg group dynamic works but it sounds absolutely miserable
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Jan 8, 2018 20:54
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hyphz posted:Right. Now wind back to context. Are these things which would happen in the normal way if this was just a conversation? If not, is it surprising that the RPG conversation isn't a normal conversation and ends up having manipulation in it? Yes, also what the gently caress is wrong with you. Like. Fundamentally.
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Jan 8, 2018 20:54
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e: you know what, nevermind
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Jan 8, 2018 20:55
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hyphz posted:Right. Now wind back to context. Are these things which would happen in the normal way if this was just a conversation?
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Jan 8, 2018 20:56
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Xiahou Dun posted:Holy poo poo. More like "I can't imagine my friends thinking that a story that ends with their characters getting shot is fun." (Thinking they might be shot is fine, though.)
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Jan 8, 2018 20:59
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hyphz posted:More like "I can't imagine my friends thinking that a story that ends with their characters getting shot is fun." (Thinking they might be shot is fine, though.) It has already been repeated, multiple times, that very rarely does BitD end up in death, because it's important to keep the game fun and interesting and death is not interesting, in most cases.
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Jan 8, 2018 21:01
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hyphz posted:3. The GM would probably also quite like the PCs to succeed. But if he/she acts on that desire, they always will and 2 will be violated. I just can't get over this - everything the GM does is taking actions in a way that allows the PCs to succeed. ESPECIALLY in a game like D&D with its huge and unrealistic mechanical power differential between characters. Like, if you were being a purely objective world simulator with no regard for allowing the PCs to shine and have agency, there's no reason that your starting adventure would be 1HD enemies or whatever. Instead it'd be just as likely that you'd throw a level 17 encounter at them - okay, there are reports of people going missing, you go and investigate, and it's a team of level 15 drow ninjamancers who murder most of you in your sleep and cart off the best slave. Done.
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Jan 8, 2018 21:02
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can anyone consult the episode of star trek where picard deals with this particular kind of alien and give us some pointers?hyphz posted:More like "I can't imagine my friends thinking that a story that ends with their characters getting shot is fun." (Thinking they might be shot is fine, though.) i recommend watching the wire and thinking over the fate of omar and why, despite complete deflating all dramatic tension it remains a perfect send-off for the most beloved character in the series that isn't named bunk
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Jan 8, 2018 21:02
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paradoxGentleman posted:It has already been repeated, multiple times, that very rarely does BitD end up in death, because it's important to keep the game fun and interesting and death is not interesting. *death is sometimes interesting (I agree with you though)
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Jan 8, 2018 21:02
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I'm sorry for your bad friends who've never seen the vast and varied number of stories where a character is satisfactorially shot in the head. Have a drat movie night, watch The Magnificent Seven or Thelma and Louise. Jesus.
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Jan 8, 2018 21:04
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I mean, 13 Assassins isn't for everyone but everybody saw Rogue One
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Jan 8, 2018 21:07
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actually omar from the wire is the perfect example of a blades in the dark character dying because of the gm following through on a threat omar has picked a fight with marlo stanfield, the most powerful drug lord in baltimore, and has gotten himself injured in a previous daring escape from an ambush (resisted a fatal harm consequence and downgraded to level 2 harm). he's been going around hitting marlo's operation and stealing from him (earned a ton of heat). and now there's a bounty on his head that everyone knows about (a danger clock ticking down with each crazy action he takes). and then, while buying cigarettes in plain daylight, the GM ticks the last segment of the clock and declares that a kid is shooting omar in the head for the bounty. omar's theoretical player could resist this, but chooses not to. its thematically interesting for omar to die without getting revenge, as it speaks to his character's entire deal of being too obsessed with the game to get out cleanly, and denial of catharsis is a big part of the tone of the game so far. so omar is dead, killed by a random child, with his last work undone, and the player is satisfied with that because the game is winding down and there are plenty of other characters for him to pick up and play until the end.
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Jan 8, 2018 21:14
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thelazyblank posted:Every conversation can have manipulation in it. You agree, when you sit down to play this game, to try and minimize it for the goal of a good collaborative story. thelazyblank has agreed to sit down to play this game. *steeples fingers* The fool has already fallen into my trap.
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Jan 8, 2018 21:22
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DalaranJ posted:thelazyblank has agreed to sit down to play this game. *steeples fingers* The fool has already fallen into my trap.  aw, son of a bitch
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Jan 8, 2018 21:38
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The only winning move is not to have a conversation.
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Jan 8, 2018 21:44
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Splicer posted:Should have specified, I meant the Beta. It's obviously unfinished, and never will be, but it's good fun and great for teaching you how to have fun hurting your darlings. I see what you mean, but it avoids the original issue which is how, with no map, the GM decides how many obstacles to spawn before success. In Danger Patrol the game locks that number in the rules and makes every threat a separate encounter so there are no pacing errors caused by that. Most narrative games either don’t do it at all or use a clock so the numbers are predictable. What do I mean by manipulation? “I’ve taken a bunch of Harm and the GM is spawning encounters as long as we’re interested. Quick! Everybody get bored!”
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Jan 8, 2018 21:57
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"Oh poo poo, I'm hosed up mang. Time to head back to the hardhold." --Me, luring my fellow players into a fiendish trap
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Jan 8, 2018 22:01
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hyphz posted:What do I mean by manipulation? “I’ve taken a bunch of Harm and the GM is spawning encounters as long as we’re interested. Quick! Everybody get bored!” if the gm goes along with this, then they've stopped portraying the world honestly. you may also want to look over the player section for reasons why pcs who do this aren't playing the game correctly quote:You’re scoundrels at the bottom of the pile, daring to challenge the powers-that-be. quote:You are a co-author of the game. If you want shortcomings and flaws to be part and if you find your players falling into the mode of thinking that you're stuck in, then you stop the game and have an actual conversation about how the game is meant to go
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Jan 8, 2018 22:02
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You know, hyphz...maybe RPGs aren't for you.
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Jan 8, 2018 22:04
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hyphz posted:What do I mean by manipulation? “I’ve taken a bunch of Harm and the GM is spawning encounters as long as we’re interested. Quick! Everybody get bored!” Man, it's a good thing I don't play games with your players, I have a pretty bad straw allergy. Like. Imagine an actual human being saying or thinking that.
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Jan 8, 2018 22:13
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Serf posted:if the gm goes along with this, then they've stopped portraying the world honestly. "Honestly" means based on the truth, but if there is no map there is no truth. Say your PCs were breaking into a modern bank vault. What possible way is there for people to break into a bank that it "makes sense" the bank wouldn't have defended against? Evil Mastermind posted:You know, hyphz...maybe RPGs aren't for you. If I could genuinely think that I'd burn my books, but I don't for two reasons: 1) 5e and PF don't have this problem, and while they have other problems (such as me being sick to the back teeth of them) a glance at the popularity/sales statistics will confirm that they define what an RPG is more than everything Evil Hat ever printed. 2) Even when I've asked this question before, and even when I've asked on other forums, nobody's ever replied by posting about that time when they ran Blades/PbtA/whatever and saying what their thought process was for choosing the number of obstacles the players faced.
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Jan 8, 2018 22:16
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hyphz posted:What do I mean by manipulation? “I’ve taken a bunch of Harm and the GM is spawning encounters as long as we’re interested. Quick! Everybody get bored!” these are the words of a crazy person. "we're having fun but things aren't going perfectly for my character everyone stop having fun." what sane person does this?
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Jan 8, 2018 22:16
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The most common form of brain tapeworm is the pork tapeworm -- Taenia solium. Taeniasis, the intestinal infection transmitted by the adult worm, is a mild condition, caused by eating undercooked pork. But infection with the worms' juvenile (larval) form has worse consequences as the younger worms can migrate to other parts of the body. If they enter the nervous system the worms can form cysts in the brain, which have severe consequences, including epilepsy. The young larvael forms of Taenia solium can migrate to the brain where they burrow to form cysts. Pigs are the primary source of contracting Taenia solium. Though pork when properly prepared and cooked is not problematic, the World Health Organization says poor sanitation and substandard slaughterhouses contribute towards transmission. The worms release their eggs in the pigs' feces, which results in more severe infection. In 2013 a British man of Chinese ethnicity was diagnosed with a tapeworm, Spirometra erinaceieuropaei, inside his brain. The 50-year old first experienced headaches four years earlier and was treated for tuberculosis. After four years, the British patient returned to hospital in pain to find his brain lesion had migrated to a new region of the brain resulting in new symptoms, including seizures. His MRI scans show the tapeworm's burrowed migration through the brain over four years. The tapeworm has a complicated life cycle through which it infects both animals and humans. The juvenile form of the worm -- known as larvae -- are found in contaminated water as well as the flesh of frogs and snakes. Consumption of raw flesh from these animals or drinking contaminated water can lead to infection, from which the larvae can migrate to many parts of the body, including the brain. In China, the practice of using frog meat as a form of poultice to calm sore eyes or treat wounds can also cause infection.
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Jan 8, 2018 22:18
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Elfgames posted:these are the words of a crazy person. Pretty much any sane person if you have a game with rules based on fun that thus creates a stupid feedback loop. Look at the choices: 1) Keep having fun, keep having encounters, Dave's character being seriously injured probably dies to those encounters and that's less fun for him 2) Stop having fun for a moment, the encounters end, we get the treasure, that's fun, the next adventure can be fun again and Dave's character is fine
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Jan 8, 2018 22:18
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hyphz posted:"Honestly" means based on the truth, but if there is no map there is no truth. blades in the dark recommends movies like "heat" and "thief" that will help you out with this. don't forget, this is fiction, where you portray a cinematic world with heroes who are competent and exceptional. things are possible for them that aren't for regular people. hyphz posted:If I could genuinely think that I'd burn my books, but I don't for two reasons: 1) popularity is meaningless, as both those systems are absolute dogshit 2) people have been replying to you about this thought process, which is detailed in those respective books, since the moment you started posting you loving smoothbrain
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Jan 8, 2018 22:20
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hyphz posted:"Honestly" means based on the truth, but if there is no map there is no truth. What in the actual factual gently caress, my dude. Also people have spent probably too many posts telling you how they make and determine challenges the player faced, you just seem to have some fundamental inability to understand these concepts.
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Jan 8, 2018 22:20
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