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I've now got the mental image of like half a dozen GenChat leftists descending on CelticPredator to forcefully but patiently explain how murder is good actually, and it's the funniest drat thing to me
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Jan 9, 2018 17:49
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:Cost overruns, constant fuckery from the studio, something like a third of the script wasn't even filmed. It was a shitshow but I think Hype did a fuckin great job. Does the oversaturated color-coding better than Traffic did. Yeah, it’s a really cool, stylish movie. The story herks and jerks at points, but I’m more than willing to overlook that for how great it looks. CelticPredator posted:Murder bad. But it doesn’t even just happen for murder!
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Jan 9, 2018 17:50
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Although, in all seriousness, what would you do with a kid who tried to kill someone by planning it? Like over 12 years old where you should have some knowledge about life and death?
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Jan 9, 2018 17:50
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Jenny Angel posted:I've now got the mental image of like half a dozen GenChat leftists descending on CelticPredator to forcefully but patiently explain how murder is good actually, and it's the funniest drat thing to me Muduck good.
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Jan 9, 2018 17:50
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CelticPredator posted:Although, in all seriousness, what would you do with a kid who tried to kill someone by planning it? Like over 12 years old where you should have some knowledge about life and death? Provide them with mental health treatment in a setting that keeps both them and others safe?
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Jan 9, 2018 17:53
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Fair.
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Jan 9, 2018 17:55
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Mechafunkzilla posted:Provide them with mental health treatment in a setting that keeps both them and others safe? There's a great irony in the idea that Reagan just blithely abolished mental health infrastructure, yet people can't concieve of the same for prisons.
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Jan 9, 2018 17:57
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CelticPredator posted:Although, in all seriousness, what would you do with a kid who tried to kill someone by planning it? Like over 12 years old where you should have some knowledge about life and death? Knowledge of life and death is not the same thing as being able to reason and think as an adult. Also, first-degree murder doesn't involve long-term planning, but pre-meditation. Even if you do something totally impulsively, as long as a prosecution is able to argue effectively to a jury that you had enough time - even within seconds - to formulate the idea to kill someone, that would qualify as pre-meditation. So, in that context, yes, there is a fundamental difference between a 12-year-old deciding that they're going to kill someone, and a 22-year-old deciding that they're going to kill someone. The latter is more-or-less at a stage of sufficient neurological development that they can understand the gravity of their actions, no matter how impulsive. A child is, by definition, still developing neurologically. They may understand to some extent the gravity of death, but they do not have the means of an adult to rationally interpret their feelings and the long-term consequences of their actions. HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:Cost overruns, constant fuckery from the studio, something like a third of the script wasn't even filmed. It was a shitshow but I think Hype did a fuckin great job. Does the oversaturated color-coding better than Traffic did. That Belly turned out to be the minor masterpiece that it is is a fitting microcosm of the entire situation of black art. You put the choke economic choke-collar on the creation every step of the way, systematically prevented them from achieving their full potential, and it's still light years ahead of a white status quo production with much greater means and creative freedom.
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Jan 9, 2018 18:03
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CelticPredator posted:Although, in all seriousness, what would you do with a kid who tried to kill someone by planning it? Like over 12 years old where you should have some knowledge about life and death? I mean, in the Slender case, Slenderman matched up to a man she had been seeing and she thought was real. She planned it but that's because she thought if she didn't Slenderman was going to kill her family. She knew it was wrong but she was still not operating on normal logic. She's being treated now and now has a context for the things she sees or hears. The risk just isn't there anymore and it's hard to really fault her for the crime. In a more general sense, it's not just arbitrary to try kids and adults seperately. as the article I linked put it "Overwhelming research published by The American Bar Association shows that children are far less likely to commit new crimes after being charged and sentenced in juvenile court, an arena that takes into consideration the child’s unique psychology, and provides rehabilitative resources customized for juvenile development. “We now operate with the understanding that a juvenile’s actions may not be the same as an adult’s—and, instead, that the juvenile might merit unique consideration under the law—and that punishment should perhaps be tailored to development and reform,” the American Bar Association states on its website."
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Jan 9, 2018 18:03
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:There's a great irony in the idea that Reagan just blithely abolished mental health infrastructure, yet people can't concieve of the same for prisons. Guards at a Wisconsin prison for youths stopped going to work last year after a federal judge, upon hearing a lawsuit brought by the ACLU and Juvenile Law Center, found there were systemic abuses at the prison and put strict limits on when things like tasers, pepper spray and solitary confinement could be used on the kids. They claimed that their tools had been taken away from them.
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Jan 9, 2018 18:03
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We are never going to get over Tough On Crime.
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Jan 9, 2018 18:04
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HUNDU THE BEAST GOD posted:There's a great irony in the idea that Reagan just blithely abolished mental health infrastructure, yet people can't concieve of the same for prisons. I mean, deinstitutionalization was catastrophic, so it's not exactly something you'd want to bring up in favor of prison abolition.
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Jan 9, 2018 18:04
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For me the worst thing about the gun debate is the part where politicians say it's a mental health issue not a gun issue, and then do gently caress all about mental health. Like I will give the NRA everything it wants if it means actually reforming the mental health system in this country but it's just a transparent buck pass that no one that has ever said it actually gives a poo poo about
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Jan 9, 2018 18:07
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glam rock hamhock posted:For me the worst thing about the gun debate is the part where politicians say it's a mental health issue not a gun issue, and then do gently caress all about mental health. Like I will give the NRA everything it wants if it means actually reforming the mental health system in this country but it's just a transparent buck pass that no one that has ever said it actually gives a poo poo about Last month, my wife finally admitted that she's depressed, and decided she wanted to start therapy; good for her, I've been in therapy for almost a decade. Anyway, she called our healthcare company's mental health clinic (the company is both insurer and provider) to schedule an intake appointment. She called on something like December 14 or 15. She was told that the soonest available appointment with a therapist was loving March 9. System's hosed.
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Jan 9, 2018 18:11
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glam rock hamhock posted:For me the worst thing about the gun debate is the part where politicians say it's a mental health issue not a gun issue, and then do gently caress all about mental health. Like I will give the NRA everything it wants if it means actually reforming the mental health system in this country but it's just a transparent buck pass that no one that has ever said it actually gives a poo poo about It's absolutely a mental health issue in the sense that the #1 method of suicide in the US is by firearm, by a huge margin, and one of the highest risk factors for suicide is immediate access to lethal means. A decrease in gun ownership would result in a massive decrease in suicides. This is what the gun control movement should be focused on, rather than homicides or mass shootings.
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Jan 9, 2018 18:11
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Mechafunkzilla posted:I mean, deinstitutionalization was catastrophic, so it's not exactly something you'd want to bring up in favor of prison abolition. I admit I left that hanging out there probably unfairly - the contemporary mental health infrastructure was in great need of abolishment. No one thinks the system of hellish, prisonlike wards and asylums was any good. It's just that what it was replaced with was criminalization of mental illness (particularly as related to homelessness) and for the middle class, heedless consumerization of pharmacological treatments. But what abolishment is referring to is an idea bigger than reform, which is what I'm referring to, and something the right wing hasn't lost its zeal for; for example the recent tax bill. Reformism just sets the table for defacto right-wing control. K. Waste posted:That Belly turned out to be the minor masterpiece that it is is a fitting microcosm of the entire situation of black art. You put the choke economic choke-collar on the creation every step of the way, systematically prevented them from achieving their full potential, and it's still light years ahead of a white status quo production with much greater means and creative freedom. 
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Jan 9, 2018 18:16
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glam rock hamhock posted:I mean, in the Slender case, Slenderman matched up to a man she had been seeing and she thought was real. She planned it but that's because she thought if she didn't Slenderman was going to kill her family. She knew it was wrong but she was still not operating on normal logic. She's being treated now and now has a context for the things she sees or hears. The risk just isn't there anymore and it's hard to really fault her for the crime. I honestly think that it's hosed up that she was sentenced to 25 years in mental institution. That means that even if she makes a full recovery she still has to be under supervision, making it more like punishment instead of treatment.
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Jan 9, 2018 18:18
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Timby posted:Last month, my wife finally admitted that she's depressed, and decided she wanted to start therapy; good for her, I've been in therapy for almost a decade. Anyway, she called our healthcare company's mental health clinic (the company is both insurer and provider) to schedule an intake appointment. She called on something like December 14 or 15. She was told that the soonest available appointment with a therapist was loving March 9. In fairness, a lot of clinics aren't doing much in terms of intakes in late December/early January because people are on holiday. Intakes are pretty time consuming and if a clinic already has a waitlist they're not going to be prioritized. Is that the only in-network option? Did she ask for referrals to places where she could get treatment sooner?
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Jan 9, 2018 18:19
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Alhazred posted:I honestly think that it's hosed up that she was sentenced to 25 years in mental institution. That means that even if she makes a full recovery she still has to be under supervision, making it more like punishment instead of treatment. Also, how absolutely hosed will this girl be when she’s finally free having spent 2/3rds of her life locked up?
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Jan 9, 2018 18:20
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loving adults shouldn't be tried as adults. Prison is one of the great evils of our society.
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Jan 9, 2018 18:24
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Mechafunkzilla posted:In fairness, a lot of clinics aren't doing much in terms of intakes in late December/early January because people are on holiday. Intakes are pretty time consuming and if a clinic already has a waitlist they're not going to be prioritized. Is that the only in-network option? Did she ask for referrals to places where she could get treatment sooner? Intake appointments are only an hour long; the bigger issue is that the clinic is down four therapists because of budget cuts. And, yeah, that's the only in-network option. Sucks. Shoombo posted:loving adults shouldn't be tried as adults. Prison is one of the great evils of our society. poo poo, two months in county jail a decade ago was enough to scare me straight.
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Jan 9, 2018 18:27
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Timby posted:Intake appointments are only an hour long; the bigger issue is that the clinic is down four therapists because of budget cuts. And, yeah, that's the only in-network option. Sucks. The interview itself is an hour, but then you have to write them up 
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Jan 9, 2018 18:30
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X-Ray Pecs posted:Trying kids as adults is one of those mind-boggling things that makes absolutely no loving sense, yet it happens so often. Well, the year after I graduated high school, two guys I knew, around 16 or 17 years old, took a girl they knew to the park and blew her brains out point blank with some stolen pistols, because "They wanted to be career criminals and wanted to practice taking a life." So sometimes I'm cool with teens being tried as adults. Not in the case of the Slenderman thing, of course, tragedies involving mental health are a serious problem, but sometimes people are just evil or want to kill and deserve to be locked away. Franchescanado fucked around with this message at 18:38 on Jan 9, 2018 |
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Jan 9, 2018 18:35
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Franchescanado posted:Well, the year after I graduated high school, two guys I knew, around 16 or 17 years old, took a girl they knew to the park amd blew her brains out point blank with some stolen guns, because "They wanted to be career criminals and wanted to practice taking a life." So sometimes I'm cool with teens being tried as adults. Hmm yes that seems like a rational adult motivation and not something that confused teens would come up with
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Jan 9, 2018 18:38
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Will I still like The Florida Project if I don't find kids particularly adorable?
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Jan 9, 2018 18:42
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Shoombo posted:Hmm yes that seems like a rational adult motivation and not something that confused teens would come up with I didn't say it was rational, but sometimes people kill for no reason. I mean, yeah, there were rumors that there were other things going on that wasn't being discussed in the news, but it was still a pre-meditated crime, they planned it over a week or two, and they thought they'd get away with it. Yeah, they're psychopaths, but it's not like they're 12 year old children with a family history of schizophrenia trying to sacrifice their friend to a CreepyPasta.
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Jan 9, 2018 18:44
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feedmyleg posted:Will I still like The Florida Project if I don't find kids particularly adorable? Yes. It's very well shot, Dafoe puts in an amazing performance, Bria Vinaite is very very good despite not really being an actress, and it's got a lot of interesting themes. Franchescanado fucked around with this message at 18:47 on Jan 9, 2018 |
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Jan 9, 2018 18:44
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I've already made up my mind that if I ever went to prison, I'd probably just kill myself. The way the system is, I'd simply have no point to live anymore. I'd end up getting abused in prison (either by inmates or guards). When I'd finally get out, I'd pretty much have no access to any way of making a living again. It really would be more efficient to just execute people instead of sending to prison since it's pretty much a death sentence anyways. That is, unless I become a millionaire, which in that case, I have nothing to worry about and could look forward to the book deal on my month in minimum security. Egbert Souse fucked around with this message at 18:57 on Jan 9, 2018 |
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Jan 9, 2018 18:47
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Franchescanado posted:I didn't say it was rational, but sometimes people kill for no reason. I mean, yeah, there were rumors that there were other things going on that wasn't being discussed in the news, but it was still a pre-meditated crime, they planned it over a week or two, and they thought they'd get away with it. No one should go to jail, regardless of the crime. Prison is torture, dehumanizing, and modern slavery. Nobody kills for no reason, that's just a convenient lie to ignore the fact that the entire system is hosed by design. Figure out a reason and treat the case with restorative justice in whatever form that takes.. Or send the teens who want to be career criminals to the institution that churns out career criminals. I guess it's your call.
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Jan 9, 2018 18:56
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What if they just love killin
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Jan 9, 2018 18:58
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Shoombo posted:No one should go to jail, regardless of the crime. Prison is torture, dehumanizing, and modern slavery. Nobody kills for no reason, that's just a convenient lie to ignore the fact that the entire system is hosed by design. Figure out a reason and treat the case with restorative justice in whatever form that takes.. What if I told you that I agree with you, and that it is what we should strive for as a society, but until that utopia happens, I'm okay with two dudes who murdered an innocent girl for seemingly no reason not being allowed freedom?
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Jan 9, 2018 19:03
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Franchescanado posted:I didn't say it was rational, but sometimes people kill for no reason. I mean, yeah, there were rumors that there were other things going on that wasn't being discussed in the news, but it was still a pre-meditated crime, they planned it over a week or two, and they thought they'd get away with it. They're still legally kids. You can't just gently caress them over because you found their crimes especially reprehensible.
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Jan 9, 2018 19:03
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CelticPredator posted:What if they just love killin It's not like the the army doesn't exist.
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Jan 9, 2018 19:04
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CelticPredator posted:What if they just love killin Then they should probably get some psychiatric care? Anything's better than prison which only ever mskes people worse.
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Jan 9, 2018 19:04
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Alhazred posted:They're still legally kids. You can't just gently caress them over because you found their crimes especially reprehensible. I believe they are now up for retrial now that they are actual adults, but I haven't followed them in the last two years. I know one of them got a new lawyer who's been making some strides for him.
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Jan 9, 2018 19:05
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Franchescanado posted:What if I told you that I agree with you, and that it is what we should strive for as a society, but until that utopia happens, I'm okay with two dudes who murdered an innocent girl for seemingly no reason not being allowed freedom? Yeah let's just loving wait around for utopia to happen instead of taking active steps to make it so. Prison isn't going to get abolished unless we stop putting people in cages.
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Jan 9, 2018 19:06
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Shoombo posted:Yeah let's just loving wait around for utopia to happen instead of taking active steps to make it so. Hey internet stranger, I don't think you loving know me or what the gently caress I do in my spare time in regards to rights of individuals and injustices, so maybe don't assume you know me just because we disagree about rehabilitating murderers from seven years ago.
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Jan 9, 2018 19:09
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Anxiety is taking a three-minute call to sign up for a new HMO and then being so exhaustive you get nothing else done the rest of the day.
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Jan 9, 2018 19:12
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X-Ray Pecs posted:Also, how absolutely hosed will this girl be when she’s finally free having spent 2/3rds of her life locked up? Same thing happened to Roky Erickson and it wasn't until his brother started taking care of him in his later years that he started gaining back his mind. He's still hosed up tho, I saw him performing live a few years ago and he started roaming around midway through the set, you could see in his face that he kinda forgot where he was and had to re-orient himself. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2R0kcD-QaQc
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Jan 9, 2018 19:13
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The overlying problem with society is valuing punishment over rehabilitation. We would rather see revenge. edit: link broken Egbert Souse fucked around with this message at 19:22 on Jan 9, 2018 |
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Jan 9, 2018 19:17
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