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I watched the entire thing, and was interested as a layman. I miss Uni!
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Jan 9, 2018 23:39
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 also: 
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Jan 9, 2018 23:52
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Phanatic posted:On the other hand, you can go too far in the other direction:
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Jan 9, 2018 23:56
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Jan 10, 2018 00:25
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Regarding those hazardous currents at dams, the same thing happens behind large rocks in rivers. They're called "keepers" for obvious reasons, and they're one of the most important things covered by any kind of instruction from a whitewater rafting guide. Any kind of moving water can be scary as gently caress, and super easy to underestimate.
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Jan 10, 2018 00:55
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Also in re: moving water, I was taught the following: If a river looks relatively safe to swim just because the water is smooth on the top, do this first. Throw in a twig and try to keep pace with it while walking downstream on the bank. If you have to do anything more than a leisurely stroll, it's a good idea to stay the gently caress out!
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Jan 10, 2018 01:01
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PetraCore posted:Wouldn't someone drowning be a life-critical situation, though? Yes, but they were able to tell from a distance that he was dead as opposed to merely unconscious and dying because the two states are clearly and obviously visibly distinguishable from a distance and therefore it wasn't worth risking their lives stepping into water more than 2" deep.
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Jan 10, 2018 01:09
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Nth Doctor posted:Hydraylic Jumps are no joke and a great way to kill yourself and anyone who tries to rescue you. This is a great video. As an idiot who kayaks, that poo poo scares the hell out of me.
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Jan 10, 2018 01:15
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Phanatic posted:Yes, but they were able to tell from a distance that he was dead as opposed to merely unconscious and dying because the two states are clearly and obviously visibly distinguishable from a distance and therefore it wasn't worth risking their lives stepping into water more than 2" deep. EDIT: Wait, I get it, the problem is that it was a shallow lake so they knew the depth and it didn't have surprise currents to knock someone over? It does sound like a situation you could think through and decide was not a danger, but I'm not sure if it makes a huge difference in the long run. PetraCore fucked around with this message at 01:22 on Jan 10, 2018 |
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Jan 10, 2018 01:19
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You know what can retrieve a dead body and is immune to drowning? A harpoon. I can understand the need to retrieve the body, but risking another life long after it's too late to save the first... no, just don't. Edit: You know. I posted this at first as a knee jerk '  oh god why', but now I'm wondering what options are really available out there for retrieving keeper-victims?Moto42 fucked around with this message at 01:42 on Jan 10, 2018 |
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Jan 10, 2018 01:26
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I went on a guided trip down the lochsa river in Idaho a few years ago, and they put you in a wetsuit, life jacket, and helmet. Our boat flipped at one point and I had time to think "gee, i sure have been under water a long time and this life jacket isn't working very well." Going to try to avoid swimming though big rapids from now on. There are a bunch of videos of that river on youtube https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSWY0Mq3zFU I was surprised to see that only like one person has died there in the last 10 years or so.
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Jan 10, 2018 01:30
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Moto42 posted:You know what can retrieve a dead body and is immune to drowning? You wait for the water to be done with the body, and retrieve it when it finally goes downstream.
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Jan 10, 2018 01:47
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That's the 'no pressure, we can wait' option. But sometimes (as evidenced above) it's taken off the table. I'm gonna do some poking around in the morning.
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Jan 10, 2018 02:07
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PetraCore posted:Well then I don't know what the major issue is because they can't make him less dead if they get to him faster. Like you want to recover the body sooner rather than later but I don't know if I'd call that going too far? I was being sarcastic, you see. A guy who had a seizure and is currently alive but drowning in a duckpond isn't easily distinguishable by sight, at a distance, from a dead body. The major problem is that their health and safety regulations prohibited them from even attempting to save a victim who was drowning because he had an epileptic seizure in what amounts to a kiddie pool. Yes, yes, I know that first responders aren't in the business of trading one life (theirs) for another (the victim), and that conscious drowning victims can fight like hell, but the whole "We could see he was dead from a distance" bit is a total loving dodge and a regulation that states that the maximum amount of depth of water you can enter is up to the ankles is ridiculous.
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Jan 10, 2018 02:30
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Phanatic posted:I was being sarcastic, you see. A guy who had a seizure and is currently alive but drowning in a duckpond isn't easily distinguishable by sight, at a distance, from a dead body. The major problem is that their health and safety regulations prohibited them from even attempting to save a victim who was drowning because he had an epileptic seizure in what amounts to a kiddie pool. Yes, yes, I know that first responders aren't in the business of trading one life (theirs) for another (the victim), and that conscious drowning victims can fight like hell, but the whole "We could see he was dead from a distance" bit is a total loving dodge and a regulation that states that the maximum amount of depth of water you can enter is up to the ankles is ridiculous.
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Jan 10, 2018 02:55
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This sounds more like idiot policy formulated by rear end-coverers than legislated regulation. I hate this poo poo, because it's designed to avoid responsibility for any decisions by avoiding making any, and the deliberate decision to enact such a policy is glossed over and it's presented as an immutable fact of nature.
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Jan 10, 2018 03:28
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It's not entirely unfounded risk management. Where there is smoke there is fire. That is, was he overcome by fumes? Wild animals? Unlikely, or is it? Shallow ponds can have some wicked offgassing. Someone thrashing while drowning is a good indicator the person's problem is entirely being in water. For a still body in the water you can't tell what the person's problem is. If noone saw him, it's a risk entering or approaching the water. SOP maybe a little silly because it can be solved with a 20ft pole and some air sampling equipment or similar, which is poo poo that should be in a fire truck.
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Jan 10, 2018 03:41
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A model boating pond is incredibly unlikely to have outgassing, and by its nature is shallow without significant flow. A blanket policy to not enter any ankle-deep water is mindless stupidity that saps the decision-making capability of members of the organisation. A decent policy would be "don't enter any ankle-deep (or deeper) water without first looking for or considering associated hazards" but that's not going to fly until society and the legal system stops treating inaction as a "get out of responsibility free" card.
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Jan 10, 2018 04:04
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GotLag posted:A model boating pond is incredibly unlikely to have outgassing, and by its nature is shallow without significant flow. A blanket policy to not enter any ankle-deep water is mindless stupidity that saps the decision-making capability of members of the organisation. Always remember that emergency services have no legal requirement to save you, and act accordingly.
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Jan 10, 2018 04:30
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zedprime posted:It's not entirely unfounded risk management. Where there is smoke there is fire. That is, was he overcome by fumes? Wild animals? Unlikely, or is it? Shallow ponds can have some wicked offgassing. That said, he was face down floating on top of the water which is, at best, someone entirely passed out and naturally bouyant enough to float. And if you saw someone with the signs of drowning (quiet, low in the water, face angled up etc) you're right that you can assume the problem is they're struggling to keep their head over water, not that they've been overcome by gasses or whatever.
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Jan 10, 2018 04:33
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Because it's important for everyone to understand and in keeping with the spirit of the thread: DROWNING DOESN'T LOOK LIKE DROWNING.
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Jan 10, 2018 04:41
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GotLag posted:This sounds more like idiot policy formulated by rear end-coverers than legislated regulation. Bollocks. These policies come about because a rescuer thinks "Oh well, we have to get that corpse out, if we're careful we can pull the body out" and then drives his boat into a death trap as seen above. Then someone reviewing that death decides that in future, if there's no obvious life-saving gain and a threat which isn't readily explainable, employees don't get to go blindly into a situation which has a real potential for killing them. And in future, more lives are saved by that caution. Health & Safety gone mad innit.
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Jan 10, 2018 04:43
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shame on an IGA posted:Because it's important for everyone to understand and in keeping with the spirit of the thread: Article links to this video of someone in the process of drowning at a beach. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1mVcSUttX4
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Jan 10, 2018 05:00
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Drowning Chat: When I was 12(?) I was a fairly strong swimmer. Not great, but 'don't worry about him to much' good enough. Then I'm in about 12 feet of water in a small freshwater lake, and something wrapped around my ankle for a second. I completely lost my poo poo. Suddenly, I'm to panicked to swim properly and promptly begin 'fighting' to keep my head above water, and failing because I was just panic-flailing at the surface. Whatever snake, fish or random piece of garbage I had felt was long gone, but my brain didn't care, because now I was panicking that I couldn't keep my head above water. Luckily, some dude saw me spazzing out and choke-holded me back to shore. To this day, water that I can't see the bottom of terrifies me, and even the crystal clear water of a pool frightens me.
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Jan 10, 2018 05:20
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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:Bollocks. These policies come about because a rescuer thinks "Oh well, we have to get that corpse out, if we're careful we can pull the body out" and then drives his boat into a death trap as seen above. Then someone reviewing that death decides that in future, if there's no obvious life-saving gain and a threat which isn't readily explainable, employees don't get to go blindly into a situation which has a real potential for killing them. And in future, more lives are saved by that caution. The guy driving the boat had no idea about whitewater. Moey fucked around with this message at 05:23 on Jan 10, 2018 |
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Jan 10, 2018 05:21
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Jan 10, 2018 05:36
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Nyet.
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Jan 10, 2018 05:38
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shocking
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Jan 10, 2018 05:46
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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:Bollocks. These policies come about because a rescuer thinks "Oh well, we have to get that corpse out, if we're careful we can pull the body out" and then drives his boat into a death trap as seen above. Then someone reviewing that death decides that in future, if there's no obvious life-saving gain and a threat which isn't readily explainable, employees don't get to go blindly into a situation which has a real potential for killing them. And in future, more lives are saved by that caution. A three-foot deep lake isn't a death trap. Unless you're particularly vulnerable to swans, I guess. Edit: the DROWNING MACHINE in question: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bbvQlhHmCvU GotLag fucked around with this message at 06:17 on Jan 10, 2018 |
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Jan 10, 2018 06:13
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Haven't you guys seen volcano or dante's peak? Chances are that if someone is floating in a small pond that pond has actually been changed into boiling sulfuric acid and going in there is only going to get yourself killed.
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Jan 10, 2018 06:20
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Hillary 2020 posted:Article links to this video of someone in the process of drowning at a beach. I saw this clip years ago and it blew my mind -- in how quickly the person gets into trouble, how subtle it looks, and how quickly the lifeguard notices and starts the rescue. See if you can spot the problem before the whistle goes off. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0KTqPloUiU
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Jan 10, 2018 06:41
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Sagebrush posted:I saw this clip years ago and it blew my mind -- in how quickly the person gets into trouble, how subtle it looks, and how quickly the lifeguard notices and starts the rescue. See if you can spot the problem before the whistle goes off. Even if you've got a floaty, going swimming when you clearly don't have even the foggiest concept of how swimming works seems like a bad idea.
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Jan 10, 2018 06:48
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Bloody Hedgehog posted:Even if you've got a floaty, going swimming when you clearly don't have even the foggiest concept of how swimming works seems like a bad idea. A lot of people think "I'll just be fine wading around here, I won't even go deep enough for my chest to get wet". Then they walk into a riptide.
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Jan 10, 2018 06:50
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Proteus Jones posted:A lot of people think "I'll just be fine wading around here, I won't even go deep enough for my chest to get wet". Then they walk into a riptide. Even that is understandable though, a riptide is an invisible thing many people have never heard of or know exists. She fell off her tube in a calm public swimming pool and was instantly drowning. She went straight to drowning so fast she probably shouldn't even be allowed to use the bathtub without a lifeguard on duty.
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Jan 10, 2018 06:59
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Bloody Hedgehog posted:Even that is understandable though, a riptide is an invisible thing many people have never heard of or know exists. You caught me. I didn't watch the video.
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Jan 10, 2018 07:00
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Bloody Hedgehog posted:She fell off her tube in a calm public swimming pool and was instantly drowning. She went straight to drowning so fast she probably shouldn't even be allowed to use the bathtub without a lifeguard on duty. That's the point of the video -- to show how quickly someone can drown. Clearly she didn't know how to swim, but what happened to her and the speed at which it happened is not at all unusual. There are precautions that could have been taken to allow her to be in the wave pool safely; she would have been fine if she'd been wearing a life jacket, embarrassing though it may be. Maybe she could get away with water wings. Sagebrush fucked around with this message at 07:16 on Jan 10, 2018 |
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Jan 10, 2018 07:06
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Bloody Hedgehog posted:Even if you've got a floaty, going swimming when you clearly don't have even the foggiest concept of how swimming works seems like a bad idea. Don’t Google “infant self rescue”.
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Jan 10, 2018 07:11
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They should have sent in a labrador retriever to get the dead guy out of the pond. They fuckin' love getting dead things out of ponds. Failing that, just wait for a good samaritan to go "Well there's no regulations stopping me from going in there" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwR7FQwk748
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Jan 10, 2018 07:13
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Platystemon posted:Don’t Google “infant self rescue”. Interesting. My parents took me to Waterbabies when I still an infant, where they basically toss you in. They don't leave you there to sort it out on your own like this ISR, but they still rely on a babies natural instinct to hold it's breath underwater. No trauma there. I did almost drown as a baby as well, falling into a hot-tub and then my uncle rescued me. I can still remember being at the bottom of the hot-tub looking up at the surface, but being very calm about the whole thing. Was definitely a water-loving kid though, taking lessons up to lifeguard level, and some minor competition stuff.
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Jan 10, 2018 07:18
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I realize I lived pretty dangerously as a kid, grew up very rural location, only a dozen or so houses made up my village, me and the other kids my age would spend so much time in summer at the nearby lake without any supervision, I basically learned to swim on my own by trial and error.
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Jan 10, 2018 08:38
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