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Tekopo posted:hyphz, I think you are misunderstanding what "following the fiction" means in the context of narrative games. Following the fiction in the context of narrative games doesn't mean that you march in lockstep with the tropes of a particular genre. It means that that consequences of actions follow the fiction that was previously defined within a previous session that the players and the GM were playing, and that the actions that unfold make sense in terms of both what happened before and what the actors in the scene are and the situation that it is involved. It's just a short hand for "do what makes sense considering the setting and the previous actions of the players". You are misunderstanding what people mean by the term, and I'm not the first person in this thread to point this out. "Following the Fiction" reminders are helpful in narrative games because narrative games don't attempt to provide 'rules as physics' models of the entire world in which the game takes place (which, in my opinion, is impossible anyway). The problem is that doing "what makes sense" seems to end up, well, not following fiction but following kind of miserable fact. Does it really make sense that the leviathan wouldn't ram the wreck only a few moments after it saw it, causing it to break and drowning the PCs, or at least forcing them to flee without the critical item they needed, which could be destroyed or lost to the oceans? Does it really make sense that any security attack on a modern first-world bank that's in reality been thought up by a bunch of nerds at a gaming table and/or a bunch of movie writers would actually work? Does it really make sense that the corp assassin who is fully capable of doing so wouldn't just shoot the PC who has killed his colleagues in the head from a rooftop so far away they'd hardly even be a dot on the horizon? Does it really make sense that the PCs would find two holocrons, which are rarer than hen's teeth? PCs do things that don't make sense. They march confidently into dungeons where they know hundreds of people have been horribly killed. They accept missions sending four underequipped soldiers into heavily defended fortresses. At those points, I kind of lose it and want to either go gamist or start following fiction tropes, and if there's no gamist to go, the fiction tropes seem to become defining and predictable. hyphz fucked around with this message at 20:03 on Jan 10, 2018 |
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Jan 10, 2018 20:01
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how do you watch movies? like it doesn't have to make factual real world sense, it needs to make sense for the story. Elfgames fucked around with this message at 20:08 on Jan 10, 2018 |
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Jan 10, 2018 20:06
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hyphz posted:The problem is that doing "what makes sense" seems to end up, well, not following fiction but following kind of miserable fact. why didn't they just ride the eagles to mordor why do guards on the chase never look down that one alcove that the heroes ducked into, thus allowing them to escape why doesn't skynet just send a terminator back to cowboy times and end the connor line there why doesn't the villain just shoot the hero in the head instead of monologuing and giving them an opening i can only imagine the kinds of nightmare games you run and the poor, tortured souls who are desperate enough to subject themselves to that
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Jan 10, 2018 20:08
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Serf posted:why didn't they just ride the eagles to mordor Remember he doesn't run games, he sets everyone on a module and god help you if you don't follow the tracks.
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Jan 10, 2018 20:09
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Elfgames posted:Remember he doesn't run games, he sets everyone on a module and god help you if you don't follow the tracks. the sad thing is that you could just play a crpg and get the same experience without having to deal with all the extraneous bullshit. hell the crpg would probably be better run
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Jan 10, 2018 20:11
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"Makes sense" in the context of it being a story in a genre. So yes, it makes sense that their plan to rob the bank will work (though maybe with complications) because that's how it would work in a heist movie. The assassin attacks from close up because that's how it might work in an action movie. And it stays interesting because there are usually lots of options that would work in that kind of story. Their plan might fail, but it turns into a cool police chase. The assassin fires from a rooftop, but he misses his first shot, leading the PCs to run and seek cover and try to pinpoint the assassin's location. The GM can do all sorts of things, they just need to be things that would work in that kind of story. It's just like how not every space opera story is exactly the same, even though they're using a lot of the same tropes.
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Jan 10, 2018 20:12
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So I think we're concluding the Zeitgeist 4e campaign arc tonight. And the timing goes wrong and it's not tonight... next week. We've been playing this since ... wow, I think mid- to late-2014, so around 3-1/2 years. And it's kind of crazy it's all coming to an end. No real advice needed, grievances to air, etc. It's just been an amazing journey, and it'll be really hard to match the quality and complexity of this campaign in the future.
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Jan 10, 2018 20:13
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dwarf74 posted:So I think we're concluding the Zeitgeist 4e campaign arc tonight. And the timing goes wrong and it's not tonight... next week. glad to hear you've enjoyed it! i've been in my current 4e game for about 4 years, but the game itself is around 7-8 years old at this point, it's sorta nuts also good news re: interview, one of them wants to move forward pending a background check
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Jan 10, 2018 20:17
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elfgames posted:how do you watch movies? Serf posted:why didn't they just ride the eagles to mordor Exactly. If you use real life standards of "making sense" then you end up with stuff like this which would be horrible in a game. (No I don't actually run like that!) If you use fictional standards of "making sense" that that sounds good.. except those standards inevitably end up relating to a final outcome. There's no fictional reason why the guards didn't look into that alcove other than that "it would have a bad outcome for the heroes if they did". Ditto with all the examples you mention. And the players will recognize this really quick. As soon as they recognize the situation where only fictional standards make sense, they'll match it to fiction they know and predict the ending it's working towards. If they know they're in that chase film then they know it doesn't matter which alcove they hide in. If you say "well, getting caught might not be a disaster, they could enjoy that" then fine but now you have kicked the stool out from under the fictional standard of making sense too, so what is left to judge with?
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Jan 10, 2018 20:28
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hyphz posted:The problem is that doing "what makes sense" seems to end up, well, not following fiction but following kind of miserable fact.  You play it out and see if the characters fail in their aims or not. If they fail to get the items, that’s building the story. If they fail to rob the bank, that’s the story, of the assassin attacks them from afar, that’s the story. Like at this stage I’m not really sure what to tell you anymore because since D&D split away from wargaming, creating a story of the heroic deeds of your character has been one of the principal points of roleplaying.
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Jan 10, 2018 20:35
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hyphz posted:Exactly. If you use real life standards of "making sense" then you end up with stuff like this which would be horrible in a game. (No I don't actually run like that!) if they roll poorly to hide then the guards do look, though, that's the thing. in this scenario, you're now cooking with gas. the pressure is on and tension is high. the pcs are outmatched and either cornered or in a real bad spot. what do they do to get out of it? what if they fail and get captured? either outcome is interesting, your job is to get there together as a team you want to follow the conventions of the fiction, yes, and the dice are there to provide interesting outcomes and to resolve the dramatic situations that the pcs get themselves into
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Jan 10, 2018 20:36
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hyphz posted:Exactly. If you use real life standards of "making sense" then you end up with stuff like this which would be horrible in a game. (No I don't actually run like that!) e;fb
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Jan 10, 2018 20:37
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gm: well you get inside the drowned ship and start looking for the thing, but then a giant sea monster rams through the hull. the water rushes in and you are crushed to death almost instantly by the depths. well, pack it in folks, game's over. players: hooray!
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Jan 10, 2018 20:41
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Serf posted:gm: well you get inside the drowned ship and start looking for the thing, but then a giant sea monster rams through the hull. the water rushes in and you are crushed to death almost instantly by the depths. well, pack it in folks, game's over. LOL. I thought of it the other way with in character leakage: PC1: What was that shadow? PC2 (looking out of a porthole): Something huge just went past us, guys. PC3: It’s over here now! It’s just swimming around us! (A huge cry shakes the ruined hull) PC1: Oh, don’t worry. It’s just threat escalating. PC2: What? PC1: We’re in a “nebulous external threat” scene. Don’t sweat it. Just put on your best act. PC2: Our act? PC1: Yea, scream and run around and stuff and it won’t touch us. Or it might look like it will, but trust me, we’re all getting out of here completely intact with the gem.
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Jan 10, 2018 20:53
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hyphz posted:LOL. I thought of it the other way with in character leakage:
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Jan 10, 2018 20:55
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hyphz posted:LOL. I thought of it the other way with in character leakage: Oh so you and all your players are apparently terminally 
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Jan 10, 2018 20:55
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hyphz posted:LOL. I thought of it the other way with in character leakage: there's nothing wrong with running a game where the players behave like this. if you're going for funny or self-aware, then that fits in perfectly. no need to whine about it
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Jan 10, 2018 20:55
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hyphz is your complaint about players who act genre savvy when it would go against the tone you're trying to establish?
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Jan 10, 2018 21:00
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hyphz posted:LOL. I thought of it the other way with in character leakage: 
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Jan 10, 2018 21:00
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Serf posted:there's nothing wrong with running a game where the players behave like this. if you're going for funny or self-aware, then that fits in perfectly. no need to whine about it Sure, I’d be up for a deadpool RPG. But the problem is if the players don’t have their PCs say it, but they’re all thinking it. And as a result they end up disengaged in a way they wouldn’t if it was, say, a tactical underwater combat.
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Jan 10, 2018 21:03
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hyphz posted:If you use fictional standards of "making sense" that that sounds good.. except those standards inevitably end up relating to a final outcome. There's no fictional reason why the guards didn't look into that alcove other than that "it would have a bad outcome for the heroes if they did". Ditto with all the examples you mention. There are a variety of answers to "what happens?" that are consistent with a genre's fictional standards or a specific game's tone. The players aren't going to just go "ah, I believe we're playing a checklist interpretation of Joseph Campbell's monomyth. Our next stop is The Magic Flight, so clearly we're about to find a flying carpet." This outcome where the players know exactly what's going to happen because they're familiar with the fiction isn't remotely realistic. Instead, players matching themselves to the game's fictional standards is going to be more like... since you've established spy movie nonsense is effective, Jacques is going to use high-conductivity coat hangers to create an antenna to snoop on Treadstone's wifi. And that's good. Also, your earlier example is really dire. hyphz posted:"Only just escaping" is the horror trope, if we know we're following that fiction, why bother drinking the healing potion? There'll just be more dangers until you're into the "only just" state again, but you don't have to worry about dying either because the fiction is "only just escaping", not "getting killed". Characters get killed in horror films. You remember that, right? e; hyphz posted:LOL. I thought of it the other way with in character leakage: Why are they required to get out intact with the gem? Why wouldn't they lose the gem? What else might they lose? Emy fucked around with this message at 21:06 on Jan 10, 2018 |
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Jan 10, 2018 21:04
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hyphz posted:Sure, I’d be up for a deadpool RPG. But the problem is if the players don’t have their PCs say it, but they’re all thinking it. And as a result they end up disengaged in a way they wouldn’t if it was, say, a tactical underwater combat. imma just post it again Serf posted:assuming you wanted to use the big sea monster as anything other than set dressing (which is totally cool and fine), you could absolutely keep a clock, ticking it down each time the players have a bad roll, and then when it ticks down, the monster manages to breach the hull and now you're dealing with a race against another clock (BitD, p. 16 danger clock -> racing clock)
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Jan 10, 2018 21:06
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This is just the "if I don't pull a block, I can never die in our game of Dread. I'll just never pull a block, you nerds." Also, it's terrible. Stop engaging.
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Jan 10, 2018 21:07
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hyphz posted:Sure, I’d be up for a deadpool RPG. But the problem is if the players don’t have their PCs say it, but they’re all thinking it. And as a result they end up disengaged in a way they wouldn’t if it was, say, a tactical underwater combat. I would point out that if you don't get the game, and your players don't like that sort of game, you don't have to play that sort of game. In fact, you should probably play something else. But I will also point out that not everyone who is thinking it, necessarily thinks it's a bad thing. It's a different sort of game, and has to be engaged with in a different context as opposed to your tactical combat game for instance. Different strokes for different folks.
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Jan 10, 2018 21:08
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hyphz posted:Sure, I’d be up for a deadpool RPG. But the problem is if the players don’t have their PCs say it, but they’re all thinking it. And as a result they end up disengaged in a way they wouldn’t if it was, say, a tactical underwater combat.
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Jan 10, 2018 21:08
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At some point you have to accept that RPGs are games, with the conventions of games, and the vast majority of people playing them realize and accept that they're games, not Reality Simulators, and respond accordingly.
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Jan 10, 2018 21:09
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Lightning Lord posted:At some point you have to accept that RPGs are games, with the conventions of games, and the vast majority of people playing them realize and accept that they're games, not Reality Simulators, and respond accordingly.
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Jan 10, 2018 21:24
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hyphz posted:Exactly. If you use real life standards of "making sense" then you end up with stuff like this which would be horrible in a game. (No I don't actually run like that!) I wrote the below earlier - this is the key problem with improv that AW GM moves are there to fix! Like the entire point of having that list there is that you can respond with something that BOTH: * follows from the situation * is interesting and surprising xiw posted:The key GMing insight of apocalypse world is fixing this antipattern.
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Jan 10, 2018 21:29
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God, you guys have been biting into a B- level troll for like, eight pages. Just give him up.
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Jan 10, 2018 21:30
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I have beaten a thirty-something gardener at Legend of the Five Rings. Now I'm watching some dudes move a tiny wizard car around. Life is good.
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Jan 10, 2018 22:00
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Hyphz you didn't answer my question about TVTropes
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Jan 10, 2018 22:30
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Leraika posted:What issues did you have with the L5R beta, btw? Bear in mind that I like some of it — the special dice are actually kinda cool when you get used to them, and Ring as approach are both really good. But... • Multixaxis special dice, counting successes, opportunities, and strife do not mesh well with roll&keep. They might, except... • The system is inconsistent as to whether rolls benefit more from successes or opportunities, and players also want to minimise strife, so it’s three axes with the relative value of each axis varying roll to roll, so players frequently have to run through several possible sets of dice to find the best option. • There is a split in our group as to how exploding dice work — whether an explode-plus-strife forces you to take the strife if you only keep the exploded die. I would have a lot easier time telling the GM he is wrong if the book weren’t so loving wordy. Speaking of... • The text is way too loving wordy. It’s the D&D 5 problem, everything’s written out longhand. Half the time the text is so fluffy it leads to multiple interpretations. Other times, it buries one sentence of pertinent rules in four paragraphs of over-written twaddle. • Advancement is twenty kilos of rancid horseshit in a five-kilo bag, but Cirno’s covered that elsewhere already. • The similarities between kata, rituals, kiho, maho, shuji, and spells are good ideas, but leads to players having too many options in some situations, while some others are speed-bumps.
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Jan 10, 2018 22:53
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Lightning Lord posted:At some point you have to accept that RPGs are games, with the conventions of games, and the vast majority of people playing them realize and accept that they're games, not Reality Simulators, and respond accordingly. Wrong. Games are a magical portal that will allow me to walk out of my boring life into another world where I'm the hero and I win at everything.
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Jan 10, 2018 23:06
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Hyphz, you talk like you're unable to understand how genre conventions work. No, they're not really about outcomes. The PCs can be successful at retrieving a lost artifact in a gritty noir game or a pulp adventure game, but the way they'll go about things and what they'll run into and the kinds of things that will happen will differ. Each genre has a lot of conventions and assumptions. If you can enjoy watching a show like Leverage, you should be able to enjoy playing a game with a heist, even if that heist wouldn't necessarily work in real life. You also don't seem to understand that success isn't binary--there's a range of outcomes. You can know the PCs are going to succeed but not know what it's going to cost them, emotionally or resource-wise. They may not succeed, but come close (or make progress). Finally, you don't seem to believe that players will make in-character decisions that aren't mechanically optimal or "waste resources" because it fits the narrative. They will and do, and there are even games that will reward them for playing to their character when it's disadvantageous (Compels in FATE games, for example).
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Jan 10, 2018 23:07
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Sorry to interrupt hyphz-chat, but  The Next Project design blog is back from the holidays, and all the starter classes are ready!Links to the updated Sage [Monk/Wizard], Fighter, Ranger, Adventurer [Scout/Skald], and Warlord classes are included in the post, as well as some more mechanical updates on the game's design. If there's anything you'd like to see written about on the blog, or would like to ask me about :
Thanks! 
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Jan 10, 2018 23:20
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Tekopo posted:Star Wars FFG also has a lot of issues, and the one SWFFG pre-made scenario I ran was so bad and rail-roady that we also TPKed several times and our GM had to bail us out and then cut the ending short because it relied on loads of "well you passed this roll but actually because I have to follow the scenario, bad things happen instead". FFG makes pretty bad pre-mades and, overall, pre-mades are railroady and make it difficult to let the fiction build itself because you can't stray off the railroads or otherwise it's difficult to return to the preset scenarios unless you are a very experienced GM, and by that stage you might as well run your own, more creative scenarios. lol I mean yeah SWFFG has problems,the gear porn is dumb and god do they put out some stinkers for scenarios but the dice mechanic in the game is designed for the player to be given an improv prompt to make and add things to a fight and ever scene a 'yes and...' setup for it. Like the core premise of the SWFFG is for you to do things outside the confines of the rules and fights, thats the whole reason they the two axis of result. One axis is your plain old pass/fail and the other axis is 'make up something cool that is good for you and something that is bad for you'. gently caress I've heard people complain about it being frustrating to have to come up with something interesting and creative every roll but not that you cant do it lol. The go to example people use is that on talky checks, you can spend your triumphs to do things like convert the person you are talking to into a long term ally, be it an Imperial Officer who has been hunting you down or a bounty hunter that got your number. This means those people who are the face are always trying to talk to people and negotiate poo poo. You roll your dice and then as a group figure out what happened. The dice lets you all get together and figure out the general conclusion of events, then you pull back and work out what happened to these characters and what was going on in their background/setup/previous scene etc that makes it work. kingcom fucked around with this message at 23:45 on Jan 10, 2018 |
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Jan 10, 2018 23:39
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One day I hope I can be so sure in my convictions that I can argue for literal days straight about poo poo I have no understanding of whatsoever.
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Jan 10, 2018 23:51
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Imo the big weakness of FFG Star Wars is the really boring skill list at the core of everything.
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Jan 11, 2018 00:02
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kingcom posted:lol
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Jan 11, 2018 00:11
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Yeah I found the advantage/disadvantage stuff too granular to really do anything narrativey, that stuff gets annoying with the amount you roll in combat. Plus the busted stat/skill setup, lame classes, space combat rules, frequent rolls that cancel themselves out, low starting power level and everything else people have mentioned.
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