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Caedar posted:Yeah, Churchill was a nightmare for me to learn. One of the few games that I've ever truly needed a video to learn, and it isn't even that complicated of a game. Herman's manuals are bad because he has no sense of how to denote rules' relative importance. He's a very much "throw the kitchen sink at the reader, and they'll figure it out" writer. I really think the consistent style of the rulebooks is a big plus of the COIN series. I have yet to decipher Pericles most of the way.
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Jan 11, 2018 02:00
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quote:The year began with the biggest hype for the game I ever faced and one of the biggest in the whole industry. The message that Portal Games was doing 'Robinson Crusoe on Mars' got somehow viral and got everybody excited. I saw it only once before - when Z-Man announced Pandemic Legacy. That was that level of hype.  Ignacy has only himself to blame, he is afterall Mr. "Vlaada told me how to fix my broken rear end game but I did the opposite". He always tries to exude this air misunderstood genius but in reality he just makes needlessly complex games with lovely rulebooks and the whole thing ends up being mediocre to awful.
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Jan 11, 2018 02:03
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"Ask smart people for advice then ignore it" seems to be becoming his mo.
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Jan 11, 2018 02:48
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Vivian Darkbloom posted:I really think the consistent style of the rulebooks is a big plus of the COIN series. I have yet to decipher Pericles most of the way. Agreed; the COIN Series does a generally good job. I just picked up Pendragon and figured it out within 20 minutes.
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Jan 11, 2018 02:50
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Vivian Darkbloom posted:I really think the consistent style of the rulebooks is a big plus of the COIN series. I have yet to decipher Pericles most of the way. Pericles is actually pretty straightfoward... not that you'd know from the rule book.
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Jan 11, 2018 03:28
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CaptainRightful posted:One Night Ultimate Werewolf is entry-level in that each game lasts less than 10 minutes and almost everyone gets to do some action. On the other hand, there's so many changes to the game state that it's both a lot harder to bluff and to deduce. In my experience, people who know nothing about boardgames enjoy it, as well as people who love social deduction games, but no one wants to play it for hours on end. The Daylight expansion makes the werewolves more interesting, but also adds a whole lot more fiddly nonsense. I have no experience with the other One Night games. I really wanted to love this game but we all found that the reaching out to the table and moving things around while people had their eyes closed was too easy to just tell from table movement / chair shifting etc - even the advice about having everyone tap the table and move around and make noises just didn't seem to work well. Need to try it again though...
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Jan 11, 2018 03:59
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Caedar posted:Agreed; the COIN Series does a generally good job. I just picked up Pendragon and figured it out within 20 minutes. The transferable skills from other COIN games really helps. You're thinking 'oh yeah, this is basically like that, except with these differences' and that gives you a bunch of scaffolding. I think if I tried to learn Pendragon cold without playing Cuba Libre I'd have absolutely no loving idea
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Jan 11, 2018 06:41
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Cthulhu Dreams posted:The transferable skills from other COIN games really helps. You're thinking 'oh yeah, this is basically like that, except with these differences' and that gives you a bunch of scaffolding. I think if I tried to learn Pendragon cold without playing Cuba Libre I'd have absolutely no loving idea That's the hallmark of a good established series really. Next War is a little similar, all the games share a set of series rules but each one has a game specific booklet as well to pack in the extra flavour specific to whichever conflict you're playing. Its by no means 'learn one, learn them all' but they're similar enough in scope and feel that if you've learned one, you're well on the way to learning the rest.
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Jan 11, 2018 07:24
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Cthulhu Dreams posted:The transferable skills from other COIN games really helps. You're thinking 'oh yeah, this is basically like that, except with these differences' and that gives you a bunch of scaffolding. I think if I tried to learn Pendragon cold without playing Cuba Libre I'd have absolutely no loving idea Sure does, which is why we're comparing COIN to Churchill and Pericles—they're Herman games with similar core systems, but his rulebooks make it hard to figure out what's the same and what's different.
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Jan 11, 2018 09:12
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Ignacy is a really frustrating case to me, because I think he's a pretty good designer with lots of nice ideas who is also a dogshit developer - and being the head of his company, he doesn't have anyone to forcibly rein him in. The man is in dire need of a lesson in humility to be able to grow.
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Jan 11, 2018 09:40
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Bottom Liner posted:So how is Charterstone as a full game after completing the legacy elements? I played the game with my mother and stepfather. They were a bit confused by the game as it changed a bit too fast for them, but they also have trouble with Viticulture and we've played that at least 15 times. I enjoyed the game. I would pick other games over Charterstone, but for the specific niche of playing it with my family and using it to spend lots of time with them over the holidays so that they were happy to visit, it was worth every penny. As far as complexity goes, the game is not terribly complex. On your turn you either place a worker or recall workers. You can place on another player's worker to kick it back to them (this is good for them). You can even bump your own worker, which is great if you need to take the same spot several times in a row. Over time, you place more stickers on the board, which correspond to other places to put down workers. Worker interactions become mildly more complex, and there are incentives to place buildings in your own charter (area of the board), as buildings have point totals on them. There may be other benefits as well as the game goes on. If you are familiar with any moderately complex games, you'll grok the new additions instantly and be able to incorporate them into your strategies immediately. Nothing here is groundbreaking or especially complicated to slot in. Most of the complexity comes in the form of the legacy elements, and choosing what to unlock and which buildings go where. Opening up new packs can add some cool and exciting twists to the game, and it is a bit of an adventure to go through all of the new things. I bought the recharge pack after our first play, and I intend to play through a second campaign with my family. They also enjoyed playing through the game and discovering it together. If you're looking for a complex brain burner, this isn't it. If you want something hyper-competitive, this also isn't it. There are some random things in the game, and some players can get a huge advantage by opening up the right packs at the right time. If you value the joy of discovery and finding new things and adapting to new twists, this is pretty darned good on its first playthrough. Play it at a relaxed pace and enjoy the journey. Bottom line is: I'm happy with my purchase, and I enjoyed the time I spent with my family. I don't think I would have enjoyed this if I were invested in winning and playing with a competitive group. In a relaxed and casual setting, it's fun.
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Jan 11, 2018 09:51
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As someone who used to be somewhat heavily involved in Chinese counterfeit board games, I'm fairly certain that Asmodee dude is full of poo poo. The Chinese market by and large isn't going to spend big money on board games in the first place, so they're hardly missing out on sales in-country (edit: but it does appear counterfeits are now making their way outside). Also funny that he specifically mentions component quality in the Chinese 7 Wonders bootleg as leading to negative reviews on BGG, when I own the 7 Wonders bootleg and it has quite good component quality, almost identical to Asmodee's (except it's smaller, which imo is better). This is the same copy everyone in China gets for ~5 dollars USD, there are no shittier bootlegs out there because they can't compete with that price and scale of manufacturing. In fact, all of the widespread bootlegs that I came across had good to great component quality, it's only the smaller boutique counterfeiters who had janky components, and there's no way those guys were selling enough to hurt Asmodee's numbers. Also, who is out there leaving bad reviews thinking that their copy of the game covered in Chinese is somehow legit? Not that I support the theft of intellectual property or any of the myriad Chinese bootleg industries, but just...stop lying, Asmodee. I bet Catan's doing fine. terebikun fucked around with this message at 12:24 on Jan 11, 2018 |
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Jan 11, 2018 10:07
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Reddit has like a story a month of buying something on Amazon for legitimate prices only to get bootleg quality. They always complain about the linen finish. So unless you're saying Asmodee is planting posts, then it does happen outside of China.
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Jan 11, 2018 10:16
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Here's one from this week - people getting dodgy copies of Pandemic Legacy from Amazon.
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Jan 11, 2018 10:34
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Caedar posted:On this topic, here's Ignacy talking about the experience of publishing First Martians: https://boardgamegeek.com/blogpost/72563/heaven-through-hell-purgatory I've drawn the line on buying any more Portal games: I've eventually enjoyed quite a few of them but the road to get there is just too rugged. You shouldn't have to struggle with and decipher a rule book (read walkthroughs, watch videos, post questions) just to play it. But Ignacy's designer diaries or notes are just infuriating: he repeatedly shoots himself in the foot and passes it off as some sort of virtue.
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Jan 11, 2018 11:53
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Mr. Squishy posted:Reddit has like a story a month of buying something on Amazon for legitimate prices only to get bootleg quality. They always complain about the linen finish. So unless you're saying Asmodee is planting posts, then it does happen outside of China. Well, admittedly most of the bootleg games don't have nice linen cards (it's possible my standards for quality are lower than some). And of course everything I say is anecdotal and probably wrong. Still, are those same people under the impression that they were sold a legitimate game and then blamed Asmodee? Because that is what the person in the article is claiming. Also that plastic counterfeit components for Ticket to Ride are somehow a new thing and not widely available ever since it was released (but mostly only Ticket to Ride: Europe, for some weird reason).
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Jan 11, 2018 12:20
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outlier posted:he repeatedly shoots himself in the foot and passes it off as some sort of virtue. I read this as, "passes it off as some kind of virus", which I thought was quite silly.
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Jan 11, 2018 12:45
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Trip report: Arkham Horror the Card Game is kind of rad and it's a shame it shares a name with the ur-Ameritrash. Question about the first scenario in Core - in the final Act, when Lita shows up, the intended way for the rules to interact is that an Investigator can run from the hallway to the parlor (disengaging from the Ghoul Priest if necessary), spend an action Parleying with Lita to add her to your Assets, then run back to the hallway to put the hurt on the Priest? It's kind of unclear since the Parley text is on Lita herself...
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Jan 11, 2018 16:44
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Alright, good job on the Worker Placement games. Let's move on. Let's hear what we have in regard to Drafting. Drafting, for the sake of classification, is a game where each player starts with an equal number of resources (usually cards), selects one to keep, and passes the remaining to another player. Your selection means that no other player will have access to that specific resource. So let's hear what we think in regards to good Entry Level, Hobbyist, and let's also try Hidden Gems. The definition will mostly be left to your own interpretation, but the way I envision it is a category for games that do something different with the mechanic, games that are underappreciated, or games that even well versed members of the community likely haven't heard of or played.
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Jan 11, 2018 16:57
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Entry level is Sushi Go/Party. I would personally call Inis entry level as well, although on the heavier side. It's got a lot of moving parts but the low number of cards means that you'll start picking up on real drafting strategies within a game or two.
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Jan 11, 2018 17:06
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terebikun posted:As someone who used to be somewhat heavily involved in Chinese counterfeit board games, I'm fairly certain that Asmodee dude is full of poo poo. The Chinese market by and large isn't going to spend big money on board games in the first place, so they're hardly missing out on sales in-country (edit: but it does appear counterfeits are now making their way outside). Also funny that he specifically mentions component quality in the Chinese 7 Wonders bootleg as leading to negative reviews on BGG, when I own the 7 Wonders bootleg and it has quite good component quality, almost identical to Asmodee's (except it's smaller, which imo is better). This is the same copy everyone in China gets for ~5 dollars USD, there are no shittier bootlegs out there because they can't compete with that price and scale of manufacturing. In fact, all of the widespread bootlegs that I came across had good to great component quality, it's only the smaller boutique counterfeiters who had janky components, and there's no way those guys were selling enough to hurt Asmodee's numbers. Also, who is out there leaving bad reviews thinking that their copy of the game covered in Chinese is somehow legit? drat, I know they’ll never die it since it’s ultra niche but getting cheap knockoffs of OOP games like roads and boats and Bus would be sweet. Now that I’m more comfortable with since Splotter doesn’t want to do another print run and  at cardboard investments. (Should see the MTG fear while WOTC throws their hands up and says nothing they can do to help the secondary market value.)And yeah this is like games workshop whining about knockoff quality when I would buy Chinese Forgeworld resin over their real counterparts because overall quality is so much better. I can see how QC could drop depending on manufacturer but these are also the people making the “originals” in the first place. In any case might have to look around next time I’m in Hong Kong.
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Jan 11, 2018 17:07
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The entry level drafting game is Sushi Go!, though it has a few things which will confuse new players, particularly the chopsticks cards. I know from definitive and repeat personal experience that Sushi Go! Party is a better game, but which will also baffle people who don't have much board game experience if you hand them the tin and say "figure out how to play this," but they'll do fine if you walk them through it.
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Jan 11, 2018 17:08
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A definite Hidden Gem Drafting game is Steampunk Rally. I've never seen it mentioned anywhere other than this forum, but it's a great game. It takes the drafting mechanic and uses it in a funky tableau-building way where your tableau is an invention you use to race other players to the finish line. It's fun, uses dice in a novel way, and supports like 8 players without going too long. It's a perfect game for the monthly "I have 7 people coming over to play board games tomorrow how can we all hang out without splitting up" question.
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Jan 11, 2018 17:19
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food court bailiff posted:Trip report: Arkham Horror the Card Game is kind of rad and it's a shame it shares a name with the ur-Ameritrash. Yes, you'll have to be in the same location as Lita to perform activate actions on her card. You can trigger act and agenda actions from any location (unless noted), and any cards you control, but anything else must be at your location. As an aside, also note that you can also trigger actions on cards in other player's threat areas (just their threat area, not anything they control, so weaknesses really) if they are in the same location as you. The two main offenders are Skids' and Roland's main weaknesses, Roland's especially. There are some other generic weaknesses that have actions on them, so I guess you can slap someone out of their chronophobia if they are engaged with an enemy, but Skids and Roland are the two who may need help with their weaknesses.
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Jan 11, 2018 17:30
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I don't think Inis is really too good of a generic gateway. Even though there aren't many cards, I think the "fun" of the game will likely get lost on a huge chunk of people who never played boardgames before. Sushi Go you are just getting points, and it feels ALMOST like a normal card game but just with cute art. In Inis you are drafting cards with text on them that may or may not need to be explained (which ruins the draft outside of a teaching game), and you have the thing with pretender tokens which manages to confuse even seasoned boardgame players for some reason. There is no Catan-like fun of getting new resources and working toward a tangible goal. Sometimes it's good to lose dudes on the map intentionally, and if everyone is bad at the game it can drag on forever. 7 Wonders is probably closer to a gateway, but not as good as a gateway as Sushi Go.
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Jan 11, 2018 17:34
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Inis is not at all entry level drafting since the strategies are kinda difficult to "get," since things like bursting your way to victory, knowing when to pass and when to take action and NOT murdering everyone in your territory may not be obvious to someone without some gamer intuition. Even something as "simple" as the combat requires a lot of thought when it comes to losing a card vs. losing a dude. I'd also hesitate to call Inis a drafting game, since the drafting is more a means to do the dudes on a map stuff. You also probably won't go around the table multiple times, which is sort of a big deal in drafting since it keys you in on what strategies people are doing. and to that end I'd probably say Blood Rage is a better drafting game, but not as good as a game overall. But if we're using drafting as a mechanic, than stuff like Agricola, Terraforming Mars, Pixel Tactics, and probably other poo poo that I'm forgetting that use drafting, but very, very weakly. Sushi Go (Party) is the best entry level, with 7 Wonders the best light-medium game, depending on the number of expansions used. Magic is still the king of drafting games for me and nothing has really touched on what it brings (i.e., signaling, restricting yourself to certain colors, etc), but there's a high cost of entry, both in rules and in financial cost. GrandpaPants fucked around with this message at 17:58 on Jan 11, 2018 |
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Jan 11, 2018 17:53
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I really need to set up a drafting cube for Magic. It's the only way I really enjoy the game and I have literally thousands of worthless cards sitting around cluttering up my house, I might as well do something with them. Problem is, half the fun of a Magic draft is opening a fresh booster and frantically trying to read all the rules text for some set you've never even heard of while everyone else at the table pointedly clears their throat and checks their invisible watches. Doing it with cards I've seen before might kill that joy.
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Jan 11, 2018 18:00
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Though I play worker placements way more than drafting: Entry Level: 7 Wonders Hobbyist: Seasons (though only half the game is drafting it still is a very important element in most ways) ...and that's all the drafting games I can recall I've played. I probably should try Sushi Go.
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Jan 11, 2018 18:09
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Chill la Chill posted:drat, I know they’ll never die it since it’s ultra niche but getting cheap knockoffs of OOP games like roads and boats and Bus would be sweet. Now that I’m more comfortable with since Splotter doesn’t want to do another print run and R&B will probably get reprinted, just not soon since the last one was only a year or two ago.
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Jan 11, 2018 18:26
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food court bailiff posted:I really need to set up a drafting cube for Magic. It's the only way I really enjoy the game and I have literally thousands of worthless cards sitting around cluttering up my house, I might as well do something with them. Problem is, half the fun of a Magic draft is opening a fresh booster and frantically trying to read all the rules text for some set you've never even heard of while everyone else at the table pointedly clears their throat and checks their invisible watches. Doing it with cards I've seen before might kill that joy. Magic occupies a few different points in the draft spectrum - but I think it runs best when it's on the "overpowered nonsense slamming into other nonsense" train. Like, watching LSV draft a pile of garbage with no win condition in Vintage Cube, and then eking out wins by Mindslaving his opponent into making him discard something then reanimating it to do some other combo... it's great. Our best draft ever was the first Modern Masters set, which was probably not as well balanced as a "good draft set", but made for way more drama as everyone's deck felt interesting and different. On that note, we all found it very hard to stay interested in "Among The Stars". You're grinding out tiny little advantages, everyone feels like they're doing about the same thing, nobody has any blowout successes or big failures, and you all end up within a few points at the nonmemorable conclusion. Base 7 Wonders felt the same way to start - but once you play Team 7 Wonders with Leaders, it moves firmly onto the Vintage Cube nonsense side and becomes pretty satisfying.
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Jan 11, 2018 18:27
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Trynant posted:Though I play worker placements way more than drafting: Sushi Go is 7 Wonders-Lite basically. Same general idea, but the points and such are much easier to calculate. I choose Sushi Go over 7 Wonders every time because it scratches the same itch with a tenth of the explanation and confusion.
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Jan 11, 2018 18:28
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I think the only pure drafting games I've played are Sushi Go and 7 Wonders (and games that strain the definition like 7 wonders duel). It's not a mechanic that really supports a full game.
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Jan 11, 2018 18:31
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Jordan7hm posted:I think the only pure drafting games I've played are Sushi Go and 7 Wonders (and games that strain the definition like 7 wonders duel). It's not a mechanic that really supports a full game. I don't think it has to be the entire game, just a significant portion of it. I haven't gotten around to playing Inis yet, but from what I gather it's half draft, half DoaM. I think that readily qualifies here.
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Jan 11, 2018 18:34
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Ginkopolis is my favorite drafting game, it would firmly sit in the hobbyist category as a weird drafting/area control hybrid.
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Jan 11, 2018 18:35
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Sushi Go Party is so much better than Sushi Go and still cheap enough that I would never recommend Sushi Go! It just gets too old too fast compared to Party.
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Jan 11, 2018 18:37
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Lichtenstein posted:Ignacy is a really frustrating case to me, because I think he's a pretty good designer with lots of nice ideas who is also a dogshit developer - and being the head of his company, he doesn't have anyone to forcibly rein him in. The man is in dire need of a lesson in humility to be able to grow. I agree with you, there are some really good elements in some of his games. For example, the combat system and leveling system in The Witcher is really good. Combat is simple and fast and effective. The leveling up system is something I haven't seen before, either. To level up, you use the "Development" action (you get two actions per turn, can't do the same one twice.) You draw two developments for your character and choose one. That's it. They're all good, and they're all powerful. You don't turn in experience points or anything. The game's tempo is more than a bit of a race, so while you could just do a development every round and become an incredible badass, you'd be giving up precious time and ultimately lose to players who have only developed as much as they needed to because every action counts. There's a lot I like in Robinson Crusoe as well, particularly the first-in-first-out system for the timed events: you can get supplies from the shipwreck, but it'll wash away in two days and there's plenty of other pressing priorities. I like the idea behind the constant risk mitigation and choice: leave an injury untreated but accept the risk it might get infected. Unfortunately, generally speaking the risk isn't balanced and swings wildly. I also like the way the weather is a simple system that is broadly predictable in that it progressively gets worse, but that still doesn't help you know whether it'll rain tonight or exactly when the first snow will come. The rulebook is one of the worst I have ever encountered, though. Just ONE of its problems is phrasing like "take the appropriate piece and place it in the matching spot" everywhere which would be bad enough even on its own. A friend of mine who has a much higher tolerance for theme and fun (and I have good things to say about 'bad' games) sat down to teach himself First Martians so we could give it a shot and he gave it a hard pass as a troublesome and fiddly mess. All I could think was "yikes".
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Jan 11, 2018 18:44
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Sushi Go Party, in addition to getting much more for only $5 extra, is much better at being clear about objectives in the game. All the card types are displayed on the board and there's a point tracker.taser rates posted:R&B will probably get reprinted, just not soon since the last one was only a year or two ago.
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Jan 11, 2018 18:46
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The drafting in Inis is significant and very well integrated into the gameplay itself, because you draft often, and the draft is greatly influenced by the map state and the red cards you have available. Compared to something like Seasons, where you do one 10-minute draft that is most of the meat of game, and then you "pilot" your deck for 30+ minutes with some luck thrown in there to see who actually wins. I wouldn't recommend Seasons for any level really, but I think Inis is good for mid-weight.
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Jan 11, 2018 18:50
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Thinking about getting 7 Wonders Duel (plus expansion). Reviews on this are pretty wildly different, with some “favorite two player game, period” type reviews, but also a lot of “meh” reviews. No one seems to hate it, but a lot seem to find it pretty uninspired (but again, that’s against those who absolutely adore it). What are the thread’s thoughts?
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Jan 11, 2018 18:54
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Vivian Darkbloom posted:I really think the consistent style of the rulebooks is a big plus of the COIN series. I have yet to decipher Pericles most of the way. Same here. I've played Churchill several times and enjoy it, but I still haven't managed a full scenario of Pericles. I get the debate side just fine, but I can't wrap my head around the relationship of the 4 army factions (which don't map one-to-one with the 4 player factions) and when I would want to build forces in, attack, or defend any particular area. Part of that is less familiarity with the war in question, part is that advancement in Churchill is incredibly straightforward, and part is that drat Pericles rulebook.
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Jan 11, 2018 18:59
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