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It's just another form of saying that the slavery issue isn't meant to be relevant in TPM because Anakin "seems happy" or whatever. So yea, the clones have literally been programmed by their masters to not have negative feelings about their lot in life, but that doesn't change the fact that they have no choice in the matter. Choice is the thing that makes people free, and the clones do not have that.
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Jan 11, 2018 22:12
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Basebf555 posted:It's just another form of saying that the slavery issue isn't meant to be relevant in TPM because Anakin "seems happy" or whatever. So yea, the clones have literally been programmed by their masters to not have negative feelings about their lot in life, but that doesn't change the fact that they have no choice in the matter. Choice is the thing that makes people free, and the clones do not have that. and even then there's still that shot of the clone in AotC looking up resentfully at lama su and obi-wan as they stroll through the slave mess hall
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Jan 11, 2018 22:14
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RBA Starblade posted:I'm trying to make a youngling joke about newly built droids but I can't pull it together. Yeah, it doesn't really hold up, but it could at least explain the lack of battle droids after the war. One showed up in the Aftermath series, that one of the main characters has modded out the rear end to turn it into a walking death machine named Mr. Bones. And in a Zahn book from the old EU, an old droideka belonging to some collector shows up and attacks Luke and Mara. But that's all I can think of.
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Jan 11, 2018 22:17
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Wheat Loaf posted:I don't know. Yoda has a line at the start where Palpatine asks him, "Do you think war is inevitable?" and all he can say is, "The dark side clouds everything." Then later on he says, "Blind we are, if the creation of this clone army we could not see." Absolutely, but that does not imply that the Jedi's judgment is being actively clouded by anyone's "super dark side powers." Palpatine is a politician who learned the trick to shooting lightning. While he might be said to cloud peoples minds, it is only in the sense that any politician can make a convincing argument. Contrast any of his scenes to any featuring the conspicuous Jedi mind trick.
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Jan 11, 2018 22:17
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RBA Starblade posted:Do any of the prequel battle droids still exist by the time of A New Hope or were they all genocided? In Star Wars Rebels, a Super Tactical Droid and his contingent survive in a downed heavy transport until basically then because he believed the shutdown command to be a Republic ruse, and stayed active. End of the episode, he and his half dozen survivors declare the Rebel cause to have a less than 1% chance of success, so decline to join and strike out on their own in a shuttle. Episode has a bit where B2 droids walk up to some Stormtroopers who just landed, introduce themselves, and ask their business - the Stormtroopers just talk about them like they aren't there, the Sgt droid gets sad, and the Stormtroopers just shoot them all in the head as standard protocol. A survivor on Geonosis also puts a few back together from all the scattered parts left by the war to act as sentries. Cnut the Great posted:And the clones are never liberated. They simply go on to become stormtroopers who serve as cannon fodder for the unfeeling slaver heroes, and the last we see of them they're being cannibalized by Ewoks as the slavers perversely dance and celebrate the reinstitution of their oppressive government with their unsuspecting, fuzzy new acquisitions. Once they got too old to serve, which happened quickly due to their accelerated aging, the clones were all decommissioned and given the Vietnam returned vets treatment, replaced in service by an enormous conscript army that kept the people busy, and garrisoned on worlds that weren't their own, so they'd have no issue putting down rebellions. NTRabbit fucked around with this message at 22:25 on Jan 11, 2018 |
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Jan 11, 2018 22:18
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Serf posted:let's not forget that the clones are not unfailingly obedient by accident. they were literally designed that way by a bunch of slimy longnecked war profiteers. if anything their existence is even more horrific than the movies lead you to believe. Slimy? now who's the space racist?
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Jan 11, 2018 22:19
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Ferrinus posted:Frankly, it's very strange to see you, who's really big on these movies and loves to go on about how deliberate and well crafted they are, suddenly swing around to the opposite pole and be like oh yeah this stuff doesn't really make sense, they weren't ever able to square that circle, yeah it's kind of fuzzy and weird but you just gotta go with it after all what can you do heh The ST broke Cnut
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Jan 11, 2018 22:21
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Wheat Loaf posted:I don't know. Yoda has a line at the start where Palpatine asks him, "Do you think war is inevitable?" and all he can say is, "The dark side clouds everything." Then later on he says, "Blind we are, if the creation of this clone army we could not see." The point is it's not simply Darth Sidious (this name is canonical now that it was used in a non-prequel film) using a dark side power. The cloud of the dark side is a consequence of the general state of the galaxy and the increasingly compromised moral character of the players on all sides of the conflict. It's a metaphor: Sin blinds you. It's used in the other movies too. When Luke puts on the stormtrooper helmet he finds his sight becomes compromised. When Han is reborn from the carbonite he undergoes a period of blindness during which he continues to express doubt in the Force, and regains his sight as he witnesses its power firsthand. The redeemed Anakin needs Luke to take his mask off so that he can look on him with his own eyes rather than through the tinted eyes of evil, and truly see him for the first time. It's a pretty old idea, it's in the Bible and everything. NTRabbit posted:Once they got too old to serve, which happened quickly due to their accelerated aging, the clones were all decommissioned and given the Vietnam returned vets treatment, replaced in service by an enormous conscript army that kept the people busy, and garrisoned on worlds that weren't their own, so they'd have no issue putting down rebellions. Yes, I know, but simply going by the narrative of the films, the clones become the stormtroopers. This is true with Rebels, as well, it's just that the stormtroopers are merely the spiritual successors of the clones rather than the literal ones. The Empire discovered that the clones kept turning into individuals (largely through the influence of the Jedi, but it could happen again through some other vector), so instead they decided to try turning individuals into clones and hoping that would take better. Cnut the Great fucked around with this message at 22:30 on Jan 11, 2018 |
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Jan 11, 2018 22:25
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Palpatine can make lightning out of his hands, the dark clouds Yoda's referring to are the literal dark sith clouds Palpatine makes out of his butt.
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Jan 11, 2018 22:27
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Friendly Factory fucked around with this message at 07:15 on Jun 4, 2018 |
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Jan 11, 2018 22:28
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RBA Starblade posted:Palpatine can make lightning out of his hands, the dark clouds Yoda's referring to are the literal dark sith clouds Palpatine makes out of his butt. The secret knowledge of the Sith is actually a cookbook. All the recipes are powerfully delicious, but eating them invites dire consequences.
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Jan 11, 2018 22:36
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Cnut the Great posted:The point is it's not simply Darth Sidious (this name is canonical now that it was used in a non-prequel film) This is a weird comment. It was already canonical because it was used in a prequel film.
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Jan 11, 2018 22:41
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Basebf555 posted:It's just another form of saying that the slavery issue isn't meant to be relevant in TPM because Anakin "seems happy" or whatever. So yea, the clones have literally been programmed by their masters to not have negative feelings about their lot in life, but that doesn't change the fact that they have no choice in the matter. Choice is the thing that makes people free, and the clones do not have that. Anakin isn't happy, though. He's clearly and openly resentful of his status as a slave. The clones aren't resentful. With few exceptions, they're happy and proud to serve the Republic, and the Jedi's relationship with them is canonically portrayed in an unambiguously positive light. There's no real-world analogue for the clones (other than what I've argued). They're essentially just a society that's been indoctrinated from birth to serve the Republic. For all we know, the Kaminoans have them sign contracts when they come of age. The whole thing is monstrous and unnatural, but most of the clones don't appear to have any objection to fighting and dying for the Republic. That's what's so horrifying about it. They're clones. It's clearly an unethical situation. It's an army of Frankenstein's monsters. But are the Jedi their slavemasters? No. They didn't make the decision to employ them. They were going to be used with or without them. The Jedi are clearly operating from the assumption that the clone army is not an ideal thing. "It is done then," Mace says ruefully as Palpatine authorizes the use of it. "I have to admit," Obi-Wan says afterwards, "without the clones it would not have been a victory." The Jedi never asked for this. They didn't want it. They didn't even want to be generals. But like everything else that happens, the Jedi feel forced to go along with it, and at least try to guide things in the best direction they can. Which is shown in TCW. thrawn527 posted:This is a weird comment. It was already canonical because it was used in a prequel film. I was being facetious. Some people used to get mad whenever I called him Darth Sidious instead of the Emperor, because Darth Sidious is a dumb name and giving all the Sith "Darth" names was lazy and ruined Vader's uniqueness or something. Cnut the Great fucked around with this message at 22:52 on Jan 11, 2018 |
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Jan 11, 2018 22:49
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quote:But are the Jedi their slavemasters? No. They didn't make the decision to employ them. They were going to be used with or without them. Reluctantly being a slavemaster is still being a slavemaster though.
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Jan 11, 2018 22:53
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Cnut the Great posted:Anakin isn't happy, though. He's clearly and openly resentful of his status as a slave. The clones aren't resentful. With few exceptions, they're happy and proud to serve the Republic, and the Jedi's relationship with them is canonically portrayed in an unambiguously positive light. There's no real-world analogue for the clones (other than what I've argued). They're essentially just a society that's been indoctrinated from birth to serve the Republic. For all we know, the Kaminoans have them sign contracts when they come of age. The whole thing is monstrous and unnatural, but most of the clones don't appear to have any objection to fighting and dying for the Republic. That's what's so horrifying about it. They're clones. *star wipe to yoda helicoptering in with a platoon of clones blastering the poo poo outta the lz* yoda: i never asked for this
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Jan 11, 2018 22:53
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The dark side is clouding Yoda’s ability to sense poo poo, that is what the films say, and also a still canon new novel apparently. Even that Lucas quote admits that their downfall is getting duped by Sheev. Please respond using a screenshot with lines drawn across it Edgar Allen Ho fucked around with this message at 22:58 on Jan 11, 2018 |
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Jan 11, 2018 22:55
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Schwarzwald posted:The secret knowledge of the Sith is actually a cookbook.
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Jan 11, 2018 23:08
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The Dark Side continues it's 748th continuous day of clouding my dowsing rods, yet I remain convinced I am the best person here to be seeking water, and I have the full backing of Chancellor Palpatine in my attempts to do so.
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Jan 11, 2018 23:51
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josh04 posted:The Dark Side continues it's 748th continuous day of clouding my dowsing rods, yet I remain convinced I am the best person here to be seeking water, and I have the full backing of Chancellor Palpatine in my attempts to do so. Literally the prequel plot
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Jan 11, 2018 23:56
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:The dark side is clouding Yoda’s ability to sense poo poo, that is what the films say, and also a still canon new novel apparently. Even that Lucas quote admits that their downfall is getting duped by Sheev. Neither of those imply that Sheev is using "super dark side powers."
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Jan 12, 2018 00:13
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Yoda's mind was clouded by the dark side, the dankest stuff his boy 'Bacca could get.
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Jan 12, 2018 00:18
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Cnut the Great posted:Darth Sidious (this name is canonical now that it was used in a non-prequel film) You know the prequels are canonical....right?
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Jan 12, 2018 00:19
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jivjov posted:You know the prequels are canonical....right? they explain their joke 4 posts later
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Jan 12, 2018 00:29
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Serf posted:they explain their joke 4 posts later Whoops; hadn't refreshed in a while!
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Jan 12, 2018 00:34
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I get the feeling the clouding is both literal and metaphorical, as most things in Star Wars are.
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Jan 12, 2018 00:36
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quote:clones clones clones Maybe I'm missing something, but why is cloning mentioned and then never brought up again in Star Wars? That seems to me like it would be a big deal. No one questions whether anyone is really who they say they are, even though clones are thing.
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Jan 12, 2018 00:58
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Cnut the Great posted:And the clones are never liberated. They simply go on to become stormtroopers who serve as cannon fodder for the unfeeling slaver heroes, and the last we see of them they're being cannibalized by Ewoks as the slavers perversely dance and celebrate the reinstitution of their oppressive government with their unsuspecting, fuzzy new acquisitions. Yes, exactly. The six movies basically form a loop - the end of RotJ leads right back to the beginning of PM. I think you're blurring the line between a Marxist reading of the movie and a movie that contains characters which are, themselves, proletarian revolutionaries or whatever. The Jedi are well-meaning, but hopelessly blinkered and compromised by the institutions they've enmeshed themselves in. The rebels are good and noble people, but the antiquated or reactionary elements of their ideals carry the seeds for the resurrected republic's own destruction. Star Wars wouldn't have had to change too much to avoid or at least weaken this kind of reading of the material. They could've had no one ask Qui Gon about freeing slaves at all, or not opened Star Wars with like ten straight minutes of two droids wandering around and then getting kidnapped and auctioned off, or whatever. But the fact that this stuff is foregrounded by the movie but pointedly ignored or elided by the characters within the movie says a lot.
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Jan 12, 2018 01:04
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Schwarzwald posted:Neither of those imply that Sheev is using "super dark side powers." Sheev is literally using a sith burial ground under the jedi temple to gently caress with them, it’s canon Sorry your dumb star war movie is dumb
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Jan 12, 2018 01:14
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Ema Nymton posted:Maybe I'm missing something, but why is cloning mentioned and then never brought up again in Star Wars? That seems to me like it would be a big deal. No one questions whether anyone is really who they say they are, even though clones are thing. Obi won once said Clone Wars so they had to be part of the story. Even though the Clones were fighting Droids and it was kinda a rebellion, It maybe should have been called the Droid War or the Droid Rebellion war.
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Jan 12, 2018 01:35
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I assume that Palpatine used his dark powers to counteract Jedi precognition such that they A) could not detect his presence as that of a powerful wizard directly or B) clearly forecast that their futures included Order 66, the Empire’s formal rise, etc. There’s little reason to believe that the Jedi were actually being subliminally mind-controlled.
Ferrinus fucked around with this message at 01:53 on Jan 12, 2018 |
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Jan 12, 2018 01:50
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This is one of those things where EU sources need to come up with magic powers in order to explain metaphors to the sort of people who care about the EU because holy poo poo star wars not being 100% literal all the time is insanely hard to grasp for some people
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Jan 12, 2018 02:06
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Sheev is literally using a sith burial ground under the jedi temple to gently caress with them, it’s canon That's an awesome explanation.
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Jan 12, 2018 02:14
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If you 100 per cent but into the droid slavery thing virtually every character is a monster and there is no emotional pull in these movies. Star Wars is not that cynical.
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Jan 12, 2018 02:42
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The droids are not monsters. Nor is Chewbacca.
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Jan 12, 2018 02:43
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euphronius posted:The droids are not monsters. Nor is Chewbacca. That torture droid in RotJ is
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Jan 12, 2018 02:47
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I was referring to c3p0 and r2. Should have been more clear. But yeah the torture droid.
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Jan 12, 2018 02:48
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euphronius posted:I was referring to c3p0 and r2. Should have been more clear. C3PO is a dick to R2. It mirrors Anthony Daniels being a dick to Kenny Baker.
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Jan 12, 2018 03:53
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I think screwing with the minds of nearby Jedi is a normal Sith starter power, not a super special Sith power.
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Jan 12, 2018 04:35
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Yaws posted:If you 100 per cent but into the droid slavery thing virtually every character is a monster and there is no emotional pull in these movies. The droids are beings that by all appearances have all the emotional and mental life of regular organic beings, and yet they are bought and sold. This is treated as just a fact of life by essentially everyone. But why is it so horrifying to you that even the otherwise heroic characters take this for granted? To take a real life analogue, plenty of heroes in the women's suffrage movement had awful views on race. I don’t think we’d say that those people are all monsters because of it—they struggled against a great injustice and should be admired for that. We're introduced to Luke as the kind of person who’s really not all that interested in politics and doesn’t have a well-formed ideology. He just wants to leave his boring family farm and have space adventures. He doesn’t really understand the evils of the Empire and he doesn’t really understand the plight of the droids—but it's to his credit that his instincts lead him to sympathize with the Rebellion and to treat the droids with kindness and respect. That’s a starting point that he grows from. He makes much more progress in becoming an anti-fascist than in becoming a droid liberator. It would be neat if future generations could correct this error.
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Jan 12, 2018 04:49
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Zoran posted:The droids are beings that by all appearances have all the emotional and mental life of regular organic beings, and yet they are bought and sold. This is treated as just a fact of life by essentially everyone. But why is it so horrifying to you that even the otherwise heroic characters take this for granted? Because the sentience and general treatment of droids in Star Wars is glossed over for a reason. It's not what Star Wars is about. You could certainly make the argument that Lucas made a mistake here. There's a clear parallel in ANH between the Jawas selling those droids and Americas history of chattel slavery and perhaps introducing something like that with no clear resolution for the droids was mishandled. I just don't understand why this thread is so obsessed with this very minor aspect of Star Wars. The movies themselves place little emphasis on it. It's not clear Lucas' intetnion is either. Many droids show clear sentience, others don't. It's downplayed and not important to the overall story.
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Jan 12, 2018 05:11
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