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Still confused what an 'occult worldview' is supposed to be and why it's automatically supposed to be problematic. As already mentioned, Kabbalists, Hermeticists, Rosencrutians or even Theosophists /anthroposphists have strong positive moral values, often even explicitly connected to Christianity and respect of its cosmic hierarchy. Okay, classical grimoire-ists (working with the 72 spirits of the Goetia to make mad  or sink the ships of their enemies) and the left-hand path guys of the 19th and 20th century are definitely breaking with Christian ethics (or even actively opposing them), but they hardly make up more than a small part of all 'Occultists'. I put the term in ' ', because it's really nebulous. As HEY GUNS mentioned, from some perspectives, most people living before 1750 had occultist leanings - my grand-grandmother (a fervent Catholic) still took my mom to local prayer-healers, who were said to use Christian prayer to cure people from small diseases - and that was Catholic Bavaria in the 1970s. ----- Edit: Also here are some excerpts from Benvenuto Cellinis attempt to do some demon summoning in the Colloseum: https://thecuriocabinet.wordpress.com/2013/07/18/benvenuto-cellinis-encounter-with-the-spirits/ “IT happened through a variety of singular accidents that I became intimate with a Sicilian priest, who was a man of very elevated genius and well instructed in both Latin and Greek letters. In the course of conversation one day we were led to talk about the art of necromancy; apropos of which I said: “Throughout my whole life I have had the most intense desire to see or learn something of this art.” Thereto the priest replied: “A stout soul and a steadfast must the man have who sets himself to such an enterprise.” [...] The have a first ritual in the Colloseum, with a few of Cellini's friends. Things go ok, but they are told by the priest that they cannot have a full breakthrough until they bring "a little boy of pure virginity" as a seer (believing that kids are able to see the immaterial better than adults). Second ritual: The priest summons the demons and Cellini asks to be reunited with his Sicilian lover. They grant the request, but more and more demons seem to turn up: "On the other side, the boy, who was beneath the pentacle, shrieked out in terror that a million of the fiercest men were swarming round and threatening us. He said, moreover, that four huge giants had appeared, who were striving to force their way inside the circle. Meanwhile the necromancer, trembling with fear, kept doing his best with mild and soft persuasions to dismiss them. Vincenzio Romoli, who quaked like an aspen leaf, looked after the perfumes. Though I was quite as frightened as the rest of them, I tried to show it less, and inspired them all with marvellous courage; but the truth is that I had given myself up for dead when I saw the terror of the necromancer. The boy had stuck his head between his knees, exclaiming: “This is how I will meet death, for we are certainly dead men.” Again I said to him: “These creatures are all inferior to us, and what you see is only smoke and shadow; so then raise your eyes.” When he had raised them he cried out: “The whole Coliseum is in flames, and the fire is advancing on us;” then covering his face with his hands, he groaned again that he was dead, and that he could not endure the sight longer. The necromancer appealed for my support, entreating me to stand firm by him, and to have assafetida flung upon the coals; so I turned to Vincenzio Romoli, and told him to make the fumigation at once. While uttering these words I looked at Agnolino Gaddi, whose eyes were starting from their sockets in his terror, and who was more than half dead, and said to him: “Agnolo, in time and place like this we must not yield to fright, but do the utmost to bestir ourselves; therefore, up at once, and fling a handful of that assafetida upon the fire.” Agnolo, at the moment when he moved to do this, let fly such a volley from his breech, that it was far more effectual than the assafetida. The boy, roused by that great stench and noise, lifted his face little, and hearing me laugh, he plucked up courage, and said the devils were taking to flight tempestuously." Saving lives by making GBS threads ones pants. further edit: Summoning demons in a place like the Colloseum, where lots and lots of people died in violent ways, seems like an even worse idea that in other places. SavageGentleman fucked around with this message at 09:33 on Jan 11, 2018 |
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Jan 11, 2018 09:21
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Plenty of politicians, scientists, soldiers and other influential people have an occult worldview, even today, and it's not a problem for anyone. It's not the perception that matters, it's what you do with it.CountFosco posted:You might appreciate that I have a dog named Freya. Is she fierce, floofy and skilled in the ways of love and magic? Then yes I suppose
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Jan 11, 2018 10:45
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lmao, I just fell in love with this story Also just to reiterate what you said: the line between established Catholic practice and occultism (alternatively 'folk beliefs' or simply 'Catholic half-magic', as some historians call it) is pretty thin at places and actually served as a proselytising tool for the Church for a long time - there are reports of Protestant peasants in Germany or Switzerland going to Catholic priests for agrarian blessings or various supposedly miraculous sacramentals as late as the 1970s, for example. Near to where I grew up there's the Benedictine Archabbey of St Ottilia, where a certain Father Frumentius combined traditional Catholic folk beliefs (healing by ritualised prayer, miraculous sacramentals, exorcisms) and esoteric ideas that are not necessarily Catholic in origin like dowsing, ley lines and astrology; he was pretty popular here in the area until his death in 2000, and there are still not a few folks who follow his tradition and even demand his beatification. I guess HEY GUN would've liked him, if not for his beliefs than at least for his cool-rear end name 
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Jan 11, 2018 11:53
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I took my exam in Religion 101 today and got a twelve! Thanks for your support and help cramming <3 fake edit: 12 is an A+, highest in the Danish examination system.
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Jan 11, 2018 15:23
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Tias posted:
Well, she's neutered so I can't say about the ways of love, but she is very floofy. She loves to roll in the snow, so that's a bit nordic. I would describe the occult worldview as a lust for hidden knowledge which impairs one's soul. Yes, Occultists can at times hold positive moral views, and that's all fine, but just as we can find positive moral/ethical views in other religions, I would adhere to the claim that the Orthodox Christian position is the fullness of the truth. The occult worldview is essentially a system of ego-inflation, as the temptation of "secret" or "hidden" knowledge allows oneself to view them as superior to "convention." Furthermore, I was raised with a very democratic sensibility, and believe strongly in the marketplace of free ideas as hinted at in Milton's Aeropagitica. This idea of an occultic elite simply can't cohere to that democratic sensibility I was raised in and can no more escape than I can escape the allure of Christianity. I still love learning, and have the utmost respect for the legitimate, ethical gaining of knowledge, but repudiate totally knowledge gained unethically, or knowledge which is "just for me." Further, on a practical note, the occult can literally have no appeal to anyone. For one thing, what was occult no longer is. You can go to your local library and check out books by Agrippa, or other histories of Hermeticism. I can vividly recall working at a bookstore and special ordering a book of Egyptian tomb-spells for an elderly gentleman. The veil has been ripped off of the occult and what is there? Mostly sympathetic magic and questionable methods of divination. So there is no more occult, and if there are hidden teachings, if they were really worthwhile then the ethical impulse of those who hold such teachings would have compelled them to share and spread by now. Lastly, in the occult, one gets this sense of a "system" which can control demons, like pentagrams, circles of salt, etc. Are those things actually controlling demons? Or are the demons merely feigning being controlled in order to give the illusion that they are "under control." The Orthodox sources I trust the most are those which state that it is best to simply ignore demons because they are liars, fundamentally, and they are simply not reliably as a resource for anything.
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Jan 11, 2018 20:15
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My interest in the occult began as a college student after reading "The Club Dumas," and being an avid follower of the film reviews of Ted Goranson, a man who mentions Kaballah a lot. I read literature on the Sufi Eblis, and looked at Agrippa, and thought it was all kind of cool and interesting, and at one point thought that I might really get in deeper as an academic subject, but ultimately my academic interests went elsewhere. Plus, I could never really bring myself to actual occult practice, with the chants, magic words, or items, as while I was a bit of a "magical thinker" the whole picture in my head looked just a bit too silly for me.
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Jan 11, 2018 20:20
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Tias: ecco Freya. You be the judge.
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Jan 11, 2018 20:57
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CountFosco posted:Tias: ecco Freya. You be the judge.  Good dog
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Jan 11, 2018 21:23
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My stars and the axes of all my aunts, she is beautiful 
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Jan 11, 2018 22:56
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Going into the next room to give her a big hug from all of you.  Now that's real magic.
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Jan 11, 2018 23:14
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I like those photos, and it looks fun to have Grampa hanging around as a grinning skeleton. My dad was a handyman for this dude, who became a famous skull. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andr%C3%A9_Tchaikowsky#Skull
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Jan 12, 2018 00:18
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If you're going to be dead, it's nice to be dead in a way that is good for the living. An example springs to mind, my favorite tombstone: quote:In 1830 Palmer was a successful Yankee farmer, but was by no means a typical one. Possibly influenced in childhood by a bearded itinerant evangelist named Lorenzo Dow, Palmer took to wearing a long beard in the 1820s. Few men in the United States wore beards after about 1720, and Palmer was considered eccentric and slovenly. Nicknamed “the old Jew”, he was regularly harassed and questioned about his insistence on wearing a beard. A prominent Fitchburg minister once accosted him: "Palmer, why don't you shave and not go around looking like the devil?" Palmer replied: "Mr. Trask, are you not mistaken in your comparison of personages? I have never seen a picture of the ruler of the sulfurous regions with much of a beard, but if I remember correctly, Jesus wore a beard not unlike mine." CountFosco fucked around with this message at 00:25 on Jan 12, 2018 |
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Jan 12, 2018 00:23
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Mr Enderby posted:My dad was a handyman for this dude, who became a famous skull. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andr%C3%A9_Tchaikowsky#Skull Count Fosco, I don't think the people I study regard occultism as a way to get hidden knowledge, because I'm pretty sure none of them think it's hidden. If a soldier is drawing pictures of bullets and arrows as a form of sympathetic magic in a letter to another soldier (top of the right page here),  i am pretty sure the secret (if there ever was one) is out. If I had to articulate what I think they think they're doing, it's that they think that this is just...another way to do things. Military surgeons will get a bullet out with instruments, or they'll also try with a magic salve with rabbit fur in it. It's a tool, and sometimes a specialized tool, it does things natural stuff can't. This isn't speaking to the motivations of the great Renaissance occultists, of course--the way they describe their own mindset definitely involves the search for hidden knowledge and power. But Squad Leader Just-Some-Dude? The hiddenness of what he's doing probably never occurred to him. It's difficult to overstate how ubiquitous magic is for these people. It is routine. ("Don't do magic" is like number one on the list of Gustavus Adolphus's Articles of War.) Which reminds me, I know a guy in reenactment who made a period-correct charm-paper so he wouldn't get shot---it has his girlfriend's name on it and he attached it to his hat with a coffin nail. Edit: I mean, artillery is also hidden knowledge. How aiming works, black powder. Real esoteric poo poo. Do you think that's inadvisable for Orthodox Christians? HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 00:44 on Jan 12, 2018 |
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Jan 12, 2018 00:32
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CountFosco posted:My interest in the occult began as a college student after reading "The Club Dumas"... 
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Jan 12, 2018 00:41
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I would categorize that sort of thing as superstition more than I would occult. Perhaps the way I use the term occultism could be more accurately thought of as Diabolism, or Luciferianism? Really, the best illustration of what I mean would be episode 1 of Garth Merenghi's Darkplace.
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Jan 12, 2018 00:41
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CountFosco posted:Perhaps the way I use the term occultism could be more accurately thought of as Diabolism, or Luciferianism? HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 01:01 on Jan 12, 2018 |
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Jan 12, 2018 00:45
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If we can define occultism as a morbid narcissism founded upon obscure knowledge, is there a university that doesn't keep a majority of occultists on its payroll?
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Jan 12, 2018 00:46
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Numerical Anxiety posted:If we can define occultism as a morbid narcissism founded upon obscure knowledge, is there a university that doesn't keep a majority of occultists on its payroll?
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Jan 12, 2018 00:47
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CountFosco posted:more accurately thought of as Diabolism, or Luciferianism? I mean, Crowleyian occultism, yeah absolutely, but what about folks like Israel Regardie or Harvey Spencer Lewis? The Golden Dawn didn't have Baphomet, right? That's a Crowley design. And the AMORC definitely did not have such a deity. I could be wrong I haven't touched occultism in over a decade.
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Jan 12, 2018 00:49
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Thirteen Orphans posted:The Golden Dawn didn't have Baphomet, right? That's a Crowley design.
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Jan 12, 2018 00:52
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Numerical Anxiety posted:If we can define occultism as a morbid narcissism founded upon obscure knowledge, is there a university that doesn't keep a majority of occultists on its payroll? Checks out!
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Jan 12, 2018 01:08
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Another example of an individual who holds what I would describe as an occultic world view would be Samael Aun Weor, a weird Christian new-age dude from Central America who held some very weird ideas on sex, and was a self-described gnostic. He was a self-described Christian, and claimed to be an incarnate but repentent demon, so I'm not sure it would be quite accurate to call him a Diabolist, as he always confessed an affiliation to Christ. But his soteriology was entirely dependent on "hidden knowledge" - he was quite explicit that if people didn't practice a certain sexual magic in their incarnation, then they would eventually fall into hell, and they only had a certain number of incarnations to get it straight. Seven, if I remember correctly.
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Jan 12, 2018 01:12
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CountFosco posted:Another example of an individual who holds what I would describe as an occultic world view would be Samael Aun Weor, a weird Christian new-age dude from Central America who held some very weird ideas on sex, and was a self-described gnostic. He was a self-described Christian, and claimed to be an incarnate but repentent demon, so I'm not sure it would be quite accurate to call him a Diabolist, as he always confessed an affiliation to Christ. But his soteriology was entirely dependent on "hidden knowledge" - he was quite explicit that if people didn't practice a certain sexual magic in their incarnation, then they would eventually fall into hell, and they only had a certain number of incarnations to get it straight. Seven, if I remember correctly. edit: biodynamic farming would be an example of what i'm talking about, it's not harmful to plant things at certain phases of the moon or whatever, imo
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Jan 12, 2018 01:15
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HEY GUNS posted:In that case I agree with you--I'll look at my own star chart or those of my friends, no problem, I've got a carnelian in my coin purse right now, but I wouldn't ever gently caress around with demons. No way. What about daimons (like noted cool dude Socrates)?
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Jan 12, 2018 01:18
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The Belgian posted:What about daimons (like noted cool dude Socrates)?
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Jan 12, 2018 01:20
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The daimon that we read about when we read about Socrates reads eerily similar to what we would call "a conscience."
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Jan 12, 2018 01:50
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Hey gang I'm writing a big grant proposal to establish a culturally-conscious* bison (buffalo) field research station for the tribe's bison herd. I would really appreciate your prayers, and I'm happy to reciprocate by posting maybe twice-monthly notes from the Lakota history and culture class I'm taking. *Even the word "research" is pretty taboo on the reservation, it's hard to overstate just how sacred and central the bison is to Plains Indian culture. As a very crude analogy, consider how scientific research on the consecrated Body and Blood of Christ would be perceived, but also they're live animals. The tribe recently acquired a 20,000 acre (approx 30 square miles or 80 square kilometers) piece of fairly pristine prairie and we were supposed to move most of the bison herd there over winter break but the weather's been lovely. Our tribal university provost is very keen to build a research and cultural education program around the bison herd there, it will probably take a few years and a few grant proposals to get it up and running but I'm pretty excited to contribute what I can to the effort.
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Jan 12, 2018 02:04
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Pellisworth posted:I would really appreciate your prayers, and I'm happy to reciprocate by posting maybe twice-monthly notes from the Lakota history and culture class I'm taking. 
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Jan 12, 2018 02:15
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Pellisworth posted:Hey gang I'm writing a big grant proposal to establish a culturally-conscious* bison (buffalo) field research station for the tribe's bison herd. I would really appreciate your prayers, and I'm happy to reciprocate by posting maybe twice-monthly notes from the Lakota history and culture class I'm taking. That all sounds very interesting, and I'm happy to give you spiritual support. What does the station look like, and what does it want to measure?
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Jan 12, 2018 03:28
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Pellisworth posted:The tribe recently acquired a 20,000 acre (approx 30 square miles or 80 square kilometers) piece of fairly pristine prairie and we were supposed to move most of the bison herd there over winter break but the weather's been lovely. HEY GUNS fucked around with this message at 04:56 on Jan 12, 2018 |
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Jan 12, 2018 04:28
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CountFosco posted:If you're going to be dead, it's nice to be dead in a way that is good for the living. An example springs to mind, my favorite tombstone: Gravestones displaying spectacular beards, you say?   Hannes Staininger (1508-1567) was city commandant of Braunau, a small city that today is located right at the border of Austria and Germany. Next to his general popularity he was famed throughout the region for his beard, measured at a full 3 1/2 ells or about two metres. According to legend, during a fire alarm he once forgot to put his beard into his vest pocket as he normally was wont to do, tripped over his own beard and broke his neck. In any case, his descendants kept the beard and gave it to the town museum in 1911: 
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Jan 12, 2018 08:20
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Caufman posted:That all sounds very interesting, and I'm happy to give you spiritual support. Thanks, much appreciated! There is no station so it doesn't look like anything, yet. I'll have some input on the design of the structures, but a big chunk of the grant will be funds to build it. Currently we're planning for a laboratory and dormitories (since it's remote) to house 4-6 researchers so not huge. It will also need corrals to handle the animals. If you mean the terrain of the piece of land, it's rolling hills with a few parts forested and a small river bisecting it. I'd hoped to visit and get some pictures this weekend but we had freezing rain so that's unlikely. HEY GUNS posted:How does one herd them? Are they notably different from cattle? Yes, they're much more wild and dangerous. Quite a few people are mauled annually by bison in Yellowstone, for instance, more than any other animal. Though that's partially just them being idiot tourists who get out of their cars to pet the buffalo despite signs saying STAY IN YOUR CARS, MORONS. Standard cattle fences are 3-4 wires, bison fences are higher with 6-7 wires. I'm not that familiar with handling bison other than they're far more difficult to work with and dangerous than cattle. Cattle are domesticated, bison are... not. That said, bison meat is much leaner and healthier than beef, and bison are more efficient grazers so they're better for the environment. Bison also live longer, often 30+ years, while a 15 year old cow is really decrepit. edit: also a chunk of the program is STEM horse camps, the tribe currently runs a 3-week summer camp that combines horseback riding and traditional language/culture with science lessons and lab activities. This will expand the horse program. Equine therapy, too, they've had a lot of success combining horseback riding with education, therapy for PTSD, domestic abuse, etc. Pellisworth fucked around with this message at 09:21 on Jan 12, 2018 |
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Jan 12, 2018 09:18
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HEY GUNS posted:do you know who loving DOES though, is the masons. Compatible with Christianity my rear end. I'm pretty sure this is a claim fabricated by catholics my dude. Making up poo poo about the other has been a staple of catholic-mason hatred and is older than the pope's grandmother. Pellisworth posted:Hey gang I'm writing a big grant proposal to establish a culturally-conscious* bison (buffalo) field research station for the tribe's bison herd. I would really appreciate your prayers, and I'm happy to reciprocate by posting maybe twice-monthly notes from the Lakota history and culture class I'm taking. Very much my bag! I'll burn the four winds incense and get some ancestor spirits to go help out. HEY GUNS posted:Count Fosco, I don't think the people I study regard occultism as a way to get hidden knowledge, because I'm pretty sure none of them think it's hidden. If a soldier is drawing pictures of bullets and arrows as a form of sympathetic magic in a letter to another soldier (top of the right page here), This exactly describes the attitude of most hermetic magic users, even today: The knowledge of the other worlds isn't "not of this world", because everything is part of the same world/cosmos entity. In the same way that magic isn't 'supernatural', because they also conform to laws of magical science, which in this views are the laws of natural science as well.
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Jan 12, 2018 11:39
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The "Ask us about freemasonry" thread around the corner is cool and good and you should all read it.
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Jan 12, 2018 12:25
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Tias posted:I'm pretty sure this is a claim fabricated by catholics my dude. Making up poo poo about the other has been a staple of catholic-mason hatred and is older than the pope's grandmother. This is the problem though, it's literally a secret society. Yes, they're opening up and being transparent now, but that history of secrecy clouds everything. Is this a real transparency? Is it a mock transparency to put itself forward as more humdrum than it actually is? It's like the boy who cried wolf. I don't talk much about freemasonry as I don't want to come across as more of a tinfoil-hatter than I already do, but all of my gut instincts tell me that it's a thing that I don't really want in my life.
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Jan 12, 2018 14:03
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No one's forcing you. But seriously, catholics accuse masons of everything from blood sacrifice to demon worship, and none of it is even remotely likely. On the other vein, masons accuse catholics of infiltrating and defaming them with all sorts of improbable bullshit. It's just cranky old men getting at each other, nothing more. And for what it's worth, I've had an ex who was both a Crowley devotee( and thus into Baphomet) and a mason, and they said there was no beseechments to any entities but Adonai( understood as God of the old testament) and Gabriel in the rites.
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Jan 12, 2018 14:06
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Robert Anton Wilson has some interesting talks where he proposes that the ultimate purpose of Free Masonry is the removal of the Catholic church from power; the conquest of the Catholic church by disgruntled enlightenment types through societal secularization. Although RAW is not a reliable source and I take this with a grain of salt, this seems to me more likely than the blood-sacrifice sorts of rumors. This coheres with how many of the masonic founding fathers of the USA created a highly secular constitution.
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Jan 12, 2018 16:05
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No, neither is true, and Wilson is bug gently caress insane and also a con artist. Some masons hate catholics, but they were not founded to get rid of them.
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Jan 12, 2018 16:21
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You can't say that with certainty, because as a secret society, they deliberately made themselves obscure to outsiders. Although they claim to be transparent now, that transparency has to be placed within the context of centuries-old lack of transparency. Further, the Orthodox church forbids freemasonry, and when clerics are freemasons, they seem to oddly correlate with more secular, ecumenical in the bad way (theosophical) positions. None of this is a "smoking gun" so to speak, but it does raise eyebrows, and is enough for me at least to steer clear. CountFosco fucked around with this message at 16:37 on Jan 12, 2018 |
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Jan 12, 2018 16:35
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CountFosco posted:Further, the Orthodox church forbids freemasonry, and when clerics are freemasons, they seem to oddly correlate with more secular, ecumenical in the bad way (theosophical) positions.
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Jan 12, 2018 22:03
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