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I only wish that R2 got more stuff to do in the film. Just like prop him up next to a wall o sparks in the Falcon or something. Although he is getting too old for this kind of poo poo
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Jan 12, 2018 20:06
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Dirk the Average posted:If droids can vote, what stops me from making scads of ultra-loyal droids with the minimum of sapience required by law to stack the vote in my favor? Hell, I can just keep them on racks and only activate them when it's time to vote. I can make them happy to and want to participate in that process. The dictatorship of the robotariat. Honestly though this is an incredibly succinct illustration of the point that liberal democracy demands that slavery be rendered invisible.
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Jan 12, 2018 20:09
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Dirk the Average posted:There is a fundamental difference between a consumer commodity and a person. Droids are built, manufactured, and programmed to specifications. They develop quirks, personalities, feelings, etc., but in the end, they are machines. The first artificial sapients aren't gonna be hard laborers, that would be pointless. They're gonna be for simulation games where we want as realistic of NPCs as possible. Or just created because someone wanted to prove they could. Either way, they aren't gonna be used to stack votes because there'll be regulations on how many can be produced, just like there'll be regulations on how many babies can be conceived.
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Jan 12, 2018 20:10
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Black "people" simply aren't human. If they were, it would be unthinkable that we let the police basically murder them for fun. That's scary to think about, so it isn't true.
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Jan 12, 2018 20:14
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Dirk the Average posted:There is a fundamental difference between a consumer commodity and a person. Droids are built, manufactured, and programmed to specifications. They develop quirks, personalities, feelings, etc., but in the end, they are machines. you must be careful, meatbag Dirk the Average posted:There's a whole spectrum of machinery too - people aren't calling the use of a fire control computer slavery, or the use of any vehicle or starship slavery. At what point does the machine become complex enough to gain rights? artoo is regularly described as "talking" to computer systems like falcon and cloud city. it is my interpretation that they are people too, and just as much slaves as artoo is. Dirk the Average posted:What rights can they have? the same as any person, i reckon Dirk the Average posted:If droids can vote, what stops me from making scads of ultra-loyal droids with the minimum of sapience required by law to stack the vote in my favor? Hell, I can just keep them on racks and only activate them when it's time to vote. I can make them happy to and want to participate in that process. i mean you're describing a fundamental problem with capitalism, not with droids. it is funny that you position yourself as the ruthless slaver who builds his own slaves, that's pretty revealing. Dirk the Average posted:This is fundamentally different than chattel slavery. Slaves were not built on an assembly line to a specification. Every aspect of their being was not designed and molded to precisely what their masters wanted. They were living people who deserved freedom. Droids were created by someone with a CAD program and some off the shelf components so that a task could be automated. We know exactly who created them, why they were created, and what their purpose is. you are fundamentally closed off to other modes of existence besides your own. and failing to see the parallels between those modes. the movies are telling you something and you are rejecting it. you are a product of a design as well, just one more obfuscated than the droids. that does not make your existence and worth any less than theirs
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Jan 12, 2018 20:15
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Dirk the Average posted:There is a fundamental difference between a consumer commodity and a person. Droids are built, manufactured, and programmed to specifications. They develop quirks, personalities, feelings, etc., but in the end, they are machines. Interestingly enough, this is what the Quiverfull movement is about, creating more children who will become conservative voters. This is why the Duggars have 19 kids.
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Jan 12, 2018 20:18
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Dirk, do you watch Black Mirror and just sit there saying "Yep, this is fine"
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Jan 12, 2018 20:20
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the idea that the ultra-wealthy would need to create people to vote for their interests rather than just spending way less money on swaying public opinion is just mind-boggling
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Jan 12, 2018 20:22
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Serf posted:the idea that the ultra-wealthy would need to create people to vote for their interests rather than just spending way less money on swaying public opinion is just mind-boggling Not implausible though
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Jan 12, 2018 20:28
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I like the implication that the solution to the hypothetical threat of rich people manufacturing android voters is to refuse enfrachisement for androids, as opposed to, you know, stopping rich people from manufacturing brainwashed androids.
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Jan 12, 2018 20:33
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I mostly liked TLJ, but one thing that keeps annoying me about these new ones is how humans are able to fully understand BB8's beeps. All the Lucas led movies were very consistent about nobody ever understanding Artoo (or other astromechs) directly without getting a translation, either through text or Threepio. I'd allow for the possibility that BB8 - not being a regular old astromech - is just talking a different droid language that's actually legible, but then TLJ appeared to have Luke understanding Artoo beyond just being able to read his mood and attitude. I feel like this change actually contributes to how Threepio is having so much less to do in these new movies.
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Jan 12, 2018 20:35
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Hansen85 posted:I mostly liked TLJ, but one thing that keeps annoying me about these new ones is how humans are able to fully understand BB8's beeps. All the Lucas led movies were very consistent about nobody ever understanding Artoo (or other astromechs) directly without getting a translation, either through text or Threepio. I'd allow for the possibility that BB8 - not being a regular old astromech - is just talking a different droid language that's actually legible, but then TLJ appeared to have Luke understanding Artoo beyond just being able to read his mood and attitude. iirc anakin can understand artoo just fine in revenge of the sith, but i could be wrong
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Jan 12, 2018 20:37
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Cool that Jared Leto's character from Blade Runner 2049 is posting ITT.
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Jan 12, 2018 20:37
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To compare "android liberation" to the emancipation of the slaves is the most racist, bougie thing I can think of, and an insult to all those who suffered and died.
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Jan 12, 2018 20:43
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Finn I'm pretty sure explicitly can't understand BB-8 in TFA
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Jan 12, 2018 20:43
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CountFosco posted:To compare "android liberation" to the emancipation of the slaves is the most racist, bougie thing I can think of, and an insult to all those who suffered and died. A bit too late for that take.
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Jan 12, 2018 20:47
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CountFosco posted:To compare "android liberation" to the emancipation of the slaves is the most racist, bougie thing I can think of, and an insult to all those who suffered and died. i don't think star wars has androids in it tho
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Jan 12, 2018 20:50
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Al Borland Corp. posted:Finn I'm pretty sure explicitly can't understand BB-8 in TFA Yeah, but Rey and Poe do.
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Jan 12, 2018 20:51
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CountFosco posted:To compare "android liberation" to the emancipation of the slaves
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Jan 12, 2018 20:52
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Jeb! Repetition posted:The first artificial sapients aren't gonna be hard laborers, that would be pointless. They're gonna be for simulation games where we want as realistic of NPCs as possible. Or just created because someone wanted to prove they could. Either way, they aren't gonna be used to stack votes because there'll be regulations on how many can be produced, just like there'll be regulations on how many babies can be conceived. Right, but in the Star Wars universe, they are mass produced and are simple enough that a child can put them together out of spare parts. Serf posted:i mean you're describing a fundamental problem with capitalism, not with droids. it is funny that you position yourself as the ruthless slaver who builds his own slaves, that's pretty revealing. There are literally companies in the Star Wars universe that do this. Droids don't appear out of thin air; they are mass produced and manufactured to specifications. Serf posted:the same as any person, i reckon Animals have rights. People have rights. What rights should droids have? Voting is problematic, as I described. Let me outline a couple of scenarios: Scenario 1: A child puts together a droid as a science project. Maybe he or she picks up parts from a scrapyard, maybe they're purchased directly, whatever. They gently caress up the process and connect something incorrectly which activates it early and damages the droid. The droid now in unimaginable pain and unable to communicate that fact. The child leaves to go do something else and will return to the project later. Were crimes committed here? Should there be some sort of recompense? The droid literally owes its existence to the child, yet its existence has been nothing but agony. What is the ethical thing to do? Scenario 2: An engineer is working on testing medical droid software. This software will potentially be used to operate on billions of sapient beings, so getting every procedure right is critical. He or she has a testing rig set up that installs the new software onto blank droid hardware, runs the routine, then wipes the hardware (if the droid learns skills between tests, that does not prove that the software is safe - the wiping step is essential). This is repeated hundreds or thousands of times throughout development (and would be true for virtually any and all droid software packages). Are there ethical violations here? A sentient being is being created and wiped every time this experiment is run. At the same time, a lack of testing will kill billions of sapient beings. Medical testing is something that we tackle in society today. Animal testing is a conundrum. It saves human lives. It also extinguishes the life of an animal, and often does so in a way that will cause the animal to suffer (the suffering is minimized as much as possible with drugs and treatment, but unnecessary medical procedures are traumatic). It is something that we, as a society, have decided that is necessary. That's where I'm at on droids. They're creations that are built and manufactured at the whims of other beings to the specifications of those beings for purposes chosen by those beings. They are a permanent underclass, and their ubiquitous presence and ease of construction more or less ensures that they do not have rights in the same way that other beings have. I don't like that that's where I am on them, but I find it incredibly hard to look at something that has been literally created (not born, not modified, literally built from the ground up, with every piece of circuitry and machinery placed specifically in place) and see it as anything other than property.
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Jan 12, 2018 20:52
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Dirk the Average posted:There are literally companies in the Star Wars universe that do this. Droids don't appear out of thin air; they are mass produced and manufactured to specifications. people also do not appear out of thin air Dirk the Average posted:Animals have rights. People have rights. What rights should droids have? Voting is problematic, as I described. Let me outline a couple of scenarios: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_9JPF3pn5O4 Dirk the Average posted:That's where I'm at on droids. They're creations that are built and manufactured at the whims of other beings to the specifications of those beings for purposes chosen by those beings. They are a permanent underclass, and their ubiquitous presence and ease of construction more or less ensures that they do not have rights in the same way that other beings have. I don't like that that's where I am on them, but I find it incredibly hard to look at something that has been literally created (not born, not modified, literally built from the ground up, with every piece of circuitry and machinery placed specifically in place) and see it as anything other than property. you really have to understand the method by which a person comes into existence is not important. they are a person, regardless of how they came to be. droids are nothing like robots or androids, because these issues you are raising are not something that they have to deal with. there is no "struggle" over their personhood. they just are people already, and they are enslaved. this is shown time and time again to be unjust and immoral. the movie is telling you something and you are rejecting it
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Jan 12, 2018 20:58
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Dirk the Average posted:I don't like that that's where I am on them, but I find it incredibly hard to look at something that has been literally created (not born, not modified, literally built from the ground up, with every piece of circuitry and machinery placed specifically in place) and see it as anything other than property. I'm not quite understanding why you feel being born is inherently superior to being made. I feel like a lot of your attitude here is not based on robots that are actually sentient, which I think would take care of a lot of the issues you're having. I can understand that it's hard to wrap your head completely around the idea of a human creating something that has no puppet strings attached, because we do not have the technology to do that yet and so there's nothing concrete to imagine. Not so in Star Wars, in Star Wars they are the same as people and we're shown that again and again. Basebf555 fucked around with this message at 21:06 on Jan 12, 2018 |
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Jan 12, 2018 21:04
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there's also a lot of assumptions in these posts like some sort of horrific "sapience ladder" it seems you are assuming that the people of the star wars universe can manufacture robots, but this is never seen in the films. it would appear that they can only make sapient droids, and do not know how to make something lower on this "sapience ladder"
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Jan 12, 2018 21:11
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The Death Star is a droid right? I don't think I got an answer to that question. It fucks and talks to R2 though (does that mean when the techs were flipping those switches to get it to fire they were jerking it off?) so I guess so. Star Wars is weird.
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Jan 12, 2018 21:14
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It has a computer system but it's not autonomous in any way. It's controlled and maintained by thousands Artoo isn't loving it any more than your phone is loving your laptop when you charge it
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Jan 12, 2018 21:21
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RBA Starblade posted:The Death Star is a droid right? I don't think I got an answer to that question. It fucks and talks to R2 though (does that mean when the techs were flipping those switches to get it to fire they were jerking it off?) so I guess so. Probably. Cloud City and the Millenium Falcon are both alive, why not a battle moon?
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Jan 12, 2018 21:27
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Basebf555 posted:I'm not quite understanding why you feel being born is inherently superior to being made. I feel like a lot of your attitude here is not based on robots that are actually sentient, which I think would take care of a lot of the issues you're having. I can understand that it's hard to wrap your head completely around the idea of a human creating something that has no puppet strings attached, because we do not have the technology to do that yet and so there's nothing concrete to imagine. I suppose that's the core of it. I make, build, and design things both for a living and as a hobby. It's somewhat unimaginable for me to build something and then not have any strings attached to it. I don't see something being born as superior so much as I see the act of building something as granting ownership of the thing being built. Serf posted:there's also a lot of assumptions in these posts like some sort of horrific "sapience ladder" Targeting computers are pretty clearly doing something, and are not shown to be sentient in any way. They have computers, monitors, processors, and other bits and bobs of technology that aren't sapient. It's possible that there's no spectrum between simple computer and sentient droid, and I can't think of any examples off the top of my head of anything in between the two.
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Jan 12, 2018 21:30
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Dirk the Average posted:I suppose that's the core of it. I make, build, and design things both for a living and as a hobby. It's somewhat unimaginable for me to build something and then not have any strings attached to it. I don't see something being born as superior so much as I see the act of building something as granting ownership of the thing being built. And I think that's understandable, but in a situation where you're actively denying a sentient being rights, it's not excusable. So right now you aren't in that situation, which is good, because you would be part of the problem. People who are stuck in a paradigm that doesn't exist anymore are typically the ones that hold back this kind of progress and slow society down.
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Jan 12, 2018 21:35
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RBA Starblade posted:The Death Star is a droid right? I don't think I got an answer to that question. It fucks and talks to R2 though (does that mean when the techs were flipping those switches to get it to fire they were jerking it off?) so I guess so. i would assume so, yeah.
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Jan 12, 2018 21:46
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Serf posted:there's also a lot of assumptions in these posts like some sort of horrific "sapience ladder" Please please please please please watch the John Carpenter film Dark Star.
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Jan 12, 2018 21:53
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Basebf555 posted:Unfortunately a lot of this does come down to whether you want to accept the Clone Wars into the discussion. Because that show sent the message about the droid issue extremely loudly and clearly in multiple episodes every season. It demonstrates that the jedi are good guys, and that the droid army soldiers react to destroying republic droids, or even their own, identical models, with a shrug and a joke? It demonstrates that the separatist leadership are rich, self-serving cowards who need to be destroyed? It demonstrates that General Grievous gives zero fucks about any droid life? It demonstrates that jedi at least try to do good while their enemies test weapons on civilians as a matter of course? Clearly Lucas thought long and hard and made the droid army an analogue for american chattel slavery. Remember when Frederick Douglass drove the world’s first combat sub in its test cruise, checking the efficacy of his torpedos on Mississipi slave barges?
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Jan 12, 2018 22:25
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Serf posted:i would assume so, yeah. If we follow this line of thought, does this make Starkiller Base the Laser Moon equivalent of Darth Vader?
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Jan 12, 2018 22:30
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:It demonstrates that the jedi are good guys, and that the droid army soldiers react to destroying republic droids, or even their own, identical models, with a shrug and a joke? It demonstrates that the separatist leadership are rich, self-serving cowards who need to be destroyed? It demonstrates that General Grievous gives zero fucks about any droid life? It demonstrates that jedi at least try to do good while their enemies test weapons on civilians as a matter of course? you seem to be confused about what that post is saying. the droids are not willing participants in the war, and they react to the orders that they cannot refuse with sarcasm because they have to cope with their existence somehow
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Jan 12, 2018 22:30
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Serf posted:you seem to be confused about what that post is saying. the droids are not willing participants in the war, and they react to the orders that they cannot refuse with sarcasm because they have to cope with their existence somehow Right, just like black people 
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Jan 12, 2018 22:33
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Now tell me how Lucas planned Alderaan to be the planet of the jews
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Jan 12, 2018 22:34
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:Right, just like black people again, this is a weird assumption to make. the droids are not human. they are, however, people. this should not be unusual in a fantasy universe where there are countless sapient species
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Jan 12, 2018 22:34
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Serf posted:again, this is a weird assumption to make. the droids are not human. they are, however, people. this should not be unusual in a fantasy universe where there are countless sapient species just repeating metaphors from a page ago you loving idiot again, sorry your bad movies are not good, and in fact, mediocre
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Jan 12, 2018 22:35
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"Are the robot characters in starwars characters" is the weirdest cylical argument I see in these threads
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Jan 12, 2018 22:38
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Edgar Allen Ho posted:just repeating metaphors from a page ago you loving idiot i don't remember saying that, nor agreeing with it. the situation that droids exist in somewhat parallels that of some real-world situations, but it is not a 1:1 recreation of those situations, because droids (and clones) are not humans who follow human rules. they are people, just different. slave armies have existed in the past, but i doubt any of them were completely subservient to their masters as droids (and clones) are. RBA Starblade posted:If we follow this line of thought, does this make Starkiller Base the Laser Moon equivalent of Darth Vader? it's more machine now, than planet yeah, i could see that Motto posted:"Are the robot characters in starwars characters" is the weirdest cylical argument I see in these threads its exceptionally strange
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Jan 12, 2018 22:43
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Serf posted:it's more machine now, than planet Star Wars 12 or whatever better have a Death Star and a Force-using Planet or something square off.
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Jan 12, 2018 22:47
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