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Macaluso posted:Lol just don't collect the moons it's totally optional you don't need all the moons to beat the game I didn't. I collected exactly 503. The amount needed to see all relevant game content. Of those 503 I bought around 60. So I collected around 440 moons, or half the moons in the game. I had no prior ability to assess which moons would be compelling to find and a large portion of the moons are absolute dross. So of 440 moons I collected more than half were things that wouldn't have awarded anything, granted a powerup or something like star bits. How much great content did I miss because I was burned out by boring moons? "Don't collect all the moons" is a bad argument because it doesn't identify that a player doesn't know what's going to be in the game before they've played the game. The Bloop posted:I too want less totally optional content in my games Yes, if optional content means main content is worse, then I want less of it. Zore posted:yeah this sounds awful 
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Jan 12, 2018 18:26
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"Uninspired" moons ago tend to take like 30 seconds to find other than obvious repeats like the dog or race or whatever that are easy to skip if you want.
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Jan 12, 2018 18:34
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Natural 20 posted:How much great content did I miss because I was burned out by boring moons? I'm not trying to convince you to do the moons you don't want to do. I'm trying to advocate for the opposite!! I think a new player playing the game probably has some idea of what the game is gonna have. I doubt many players when into Mario Odyssey blind. quote:Yes, if optional content means main content is worse, then I want less of it. How does optional content you don't have to do make the main content worse. Just avoid the moons you don't wanna do!! It's optional!!!
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Jan 12, 2018 18:34
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I stopped watching the video like 1/3rd of the way through, but the weirdest complaint was that the game doesn't use enough of the face buttons and that Mario and the captures should have a bunch of different moves for each face button. Having just finished Yooka-Laylee which forces a bunch of useless moves onto every combination of ABXY+directional input in a completely unintuitive way, I can assure you that that is a terrible idea. I agree with most of the above posts that the beauty of the game is the sheer density of moons and the simplicity of having only one collectible to keep track of (I guess technically two if you count the purple coins). Yeah bringing 4 seeds to pots to get 4 moons is tedious if you do all 4 back-to-back, but if you just explore the giant playground of each level it can be exciting and fun to find a seed in between a boss fight or a platforming challenge or a minigame or a Koopa race or whatever. Getting the seed gives you a reason to run around back through the level to another a pot and maybe find some new things along the way to get distracted by or bookmark for later. I also don't really know if this guy is sincere. The gag about Mushroom Kingdom being weirdly simplistic for a postgame level is not really a gag or a clever observation or anything. You are forced into Mushroom Kingdom immediately after the hectic final boss. It's impossible *not* to realize how simplistic it is. The game isn't trying to trick you into thinking it's a traditional postgame super-difficult level, the juxtaposition of "escaping moon as Bowser as the moon explodes around you" followed immediately by "peaceful castle with only friends and essentially 0 enemies" is immediately obvious and intentional. I guess it's fair to question whether that particular point is worth building an entire level around (I personally didn't like Mushroom Kingdom much after the initial 20 minutes of amusement), but presenting the level out of context to make it seem like one of the last challenges of the game is just a brainless tutorial level and acting like this is an observation that everyone missed makes me think the guy might be deliberately trolling.
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Jan 12, 2018 18:36
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Korok seeds were often kinda fun and clever so "it's like korok seeds" isn't a damning statement in my eyes
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Jan 12, 2018 18:41
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I'd say the problem with not using four face buttons is that they used waggle for the special hat moves, meaning you essentially can't do them when in handheld mode. They had extra buttons they could have dedicated to those and chose not to use them. As far as the moons go, my main "complaint" is that a bundle of moons doesn't feel very satisfying to get during the main story. I think they should have just replaced it with a Big Moon or something that counted as three. It would be the exact same thing mechanically, but feel less like I was being rewarded with three of something that's really easy to get most of the time.
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Jan 12, 2018 19:47
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There are 866 total moons available (counting multi-moons and not counting moons you buy from a shop). You need 500 to get to the Darker Side. That means you can entirely miss 366 moons, which is about 42% of the moons in the game, and still get to the last challenge level. Some people are going to read that and think that's awful. But it's a design choice to support the player's freedom, and it lets you see all of the game's content while doing things like:
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Jan 12, 2018 19:53
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I'm not a fan of the 30 second time limit for both hiding and searching in Balloon World. Instead of being a challenge of finding the best hiding spot it's just going to be whoever can get the furthest in the stage the fastest. Should be 30 seconds for hiding and 1 minute for searching.
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Jan 12, 2018 19:56
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mancalamania posted:I also don't really know if this guy is sincere. The gag about Mushroom Kingdom being weirdly simplistic for a postgame level is not really a gag or a clever observation or anything. You are forced into Mushroom Kingdom immediately after the hectic final boss. It's impossible *not* to realize how simplistic it is. The game isn't trying to trick you into thinking it's a traditional postgame super-difficult level, the juxtaposition of "escaping moon as Bowser as the moon explodes around you" followed immediately by "peaceful castle with only friends and essentially 0 enemies" is immediately obvious and intentional. I guess it's fair to question whether that particular point is worth building an entire level around (I personally didn't like Mushroom Kingdom much after the initial 20 minutes of amusement), but presenting the level out of context to make it seem like one of the last challenges of the game is just a brainless tutorial level and acting like this is an observation that everyone missed makes me think the guy might be deliberately trolling. Anderson's very much of the "Gameplay is King" school of video game analysis and criticism, though that's not to say he's against other uses of the medium. You can probably guess without me telling you he prefers the linear obstacle course brand of Mario design over 64, Sunshine, and Odyssey's more open-ended playgrounds. He's also the sort of person who goes in blind and refuses to look anything up until he's exhausted all his options, who believes you need to see all of a game before you can properly judge it from a critical standpoint. All this to say, in Anderson's book, Mario games are (or should be) primarily about platforming, as that's what Mario's skillset is built around - running, jumping, diving, maneuvering - and any Mario game not fully capitalizing on that is going to disappoint him to some degree. In Odyssey's case, the sheer number of moons you get for doing "Nothing," just by locating them and walking over to them, or talking to an NPC, or controlling an enemy and doing the One Thing That Enemy Can Do in the place where it's obviously signaled for you to do it, are going to be marks against it. The difficulty curve remaining largely flat on top of that is just the cherry on top. Joe's said before he has no problem with easy games, casual games, or games for children, and even says in his review that if you're judging Mario by that standard then yes, it's more or less perfect (if not to his taste), but what baffles him - and likely triggered his excessively thorough critique of the game's moon distribution - is the amount of people praising the game as the culmination of Mario, the best Mario has ever yet been, when to his mind it's a clear step down from previous titles which started off easy as a means of building towards more difficult challenges - often rewarding the player's mastery of the base game with even harder, more demanding challenges in the post-game. Odyssey kinda bucks the trend, but you can't say his expectations are apropos of nothing. The video itself is a lot longer than it needs to be to communicate that point, IMO, but I imagine a lot of that is him insulating himself, his commentary, by establishing his credentials, since that's pretty much the first thing people always question when you take a contrary stance. "I played this game for ten hours and didn't like it." "Psh, you only played for ten hours? Maybe if you finished it you'd have gotten to the good part." "I beat this game and didn't like it." "Well if you didn't like it why did you play all the way to the end?" Mario 64, Sunshine, and Odyssey are games where you collect things to move forward, and while none of these games require you to collect all the things to proceed, you will need to obtain a sizable chunk of them, and the games' design inclines you toward collecting all of them. In Odyssey's case specifically, your reward for beating the game is literally more things to collect, to unlock the true final level, the true ending. In the end you only need around half of them to truly finish the game, but which half you get is gonna differ from player to player, and with all the praise this games has been getting from almost every corner of the Internet, surely a significant portion of those things are satisfying to get. So he got all of them, just to be sure, and he found most of them disappointing. But if he just said something like "There are too many moons you get for doing nothing in particular," the sure-fire response would be "You don't really know that," "You're exaggerating," "There's really not that many," so no, he did the math, and it's a hundred-something moons. Here's your footnote, your source. You can say you found them fun to find anyway, but you can't deny how simple they are to get, nor how many of them there are. It's a tedious video because when it comes to beloved games, that level of tedium is often required to communicate a point less-critical people might just brush off as contrarian for its own sake. For my own part, I personally enjoyed the game quite a bit, but I also never saw it as anything more than a simple, relaxing game to play after a stressful day at work (nor did I imagine it might have been anything else, since I haven't played too many Mario games between Odyssey and 64), and even in that context I found the number of scavenger hunt moons a bit off-putting. I agree with the people who say it's not about the moons, it's about how you got to them, but a lot of them still are just kinda there, or ask you to do the thing you know you need to do in this area because there's the enemy there that does the thing, no need to think or figure it out. That's not exactly an achievement, and quite a few are simply boring (Lakitu fishing) or annoying (catching birds). Bad Seafood fucked around with this message at 20:13 on Jan 12, 2018 |
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Jan 12, 2018 20:10
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He's a good critic in that his voice is consistent but MAN he is no fun to watch.
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Jan 12, 2018 20:32
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I play Odyssey like mario 64, I only go for big objectives because those are worthy of a reward. Whenever I climb something or break a box and get a moon I throw the loving controller down and yank the power cord out before the Switch can auto save because I loving hate getting a moon for free. It just loving ruins my experience if I get one outside of a worthy challenge. Then the switch autosaves anyway because it's still on in portable mode and I just howl in impotent rage.
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Jan 12, 2018 20:34
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Tender Bender posted:I play Odyssey like mario 64, I only go for big objectives because those are worthy of a reward. Whenever I climb something or break a box and get a moon I throw the loving controller down and yank the power cord out before the Switch can auto save because I loving hate getting a moon for free. It just loving ruins my experience if I get one outside of a worthy challenge. Then the switch autosaves anyway because it's still on in portable mode and I just howl in impotent rage. No discussing videogames in this thread about discussing a videogame in a forum about videogames!
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Jan 12, 2018 20:46
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Tender Bender posted:impotent rage
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Jan 12, 2018 20:51
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Tender Bender posted:It would look like Mario 64. That kind of defeats one of the core premises of the game, that you can poke around in a corner/check out an unusual object/sit next to a man on a bench and get rewarded for your curiosity. The way to make that work in a satisfying way is to make so many that you don't need to find any particular one. If there were fewer moons they'd have to remove that stuff entirely or the game would have a reputation for being obtuse, like "there's a moon you only get by sitting on a particular park bench how am I supposed to know that?!" It's only a "problem" if you decide you need to clear off the entire checklist anyway despite not wanting to do so or enjoying it, apparently. I would take this further -- Mario Odyssey designs its worlds like playgrounds, in a literal way -- you're intended to just run around and enjoy the variety of things to interact with, and the reward is the play itself. I went through SMO and my basic approach was to do as many moons as I could see to do. I spent a good few hours in each Kingdom just exploring and trying out stuff, which easily filled my required moon gauge and let me advance, and I'd always get more than I needed. So much of what is there to interact with is so intuitive and yet so subtle that you are always rewarded for finding and doing new stuff in SMO, you discover something new each time. I feel like Anderson quibbles over aesthetics and doesn't see the forest for the trees in what SMO wanted to accomplish. There's still plenty of perilous platforming, so them expanding the focus in another area and designing for a different objective is exactly what SMO seemed to want to accomplish.
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Jan 12, 2018 20:54
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It's not like you literally have to 'kick every rock' anyway, the game's pretty good at telegraphing moons with the big glowy thing, also the hint features and names and all that crap. You can basically beat most of the game wandering around drunkenly in a sombrero and boxers, and I think that's goddamn rad. You can choose your level of engagement and change it at any time.
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Jan 13, 2018 09:21
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The problem is that games have more to compete with. When i was a kid i put up with dying in SMW and SM64 because what else was i going to do? Read a book? Now kids have loads of things to occupy them with like iPads, YouTube videos, Minecraft. You have to have the easy, instant gratification content or kids will just go do something else. That said it's a really well designed game in terms of keeping kids' attention. I've watched my nephew play Uncharted and all he does in that game is change Nathan's costume every 30 seconds. He can't get enough of all the dumb poo poo like changing costumes and following a dog round in Odyssey.
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Jan 13, 2018 16:38
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CJ posted:He can't get enough of all the dumb poo poo like changing costumes and following a dog round in Odyssey. Don’t doxx me
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Jan 13, 2018 16:56
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CJ posted:I've watched my nephew play Uncharted and all he does in that game is change Nathan's costume every 30 seconds. He can't get enough of all the dumb poo poo like changing costumes and following a dog round in Odyssey. EVERY game should have fashion/costume stuff. It's kind of crazy to me that games prove over and over again that people LOVE dressing up their characters and yet so many games still don't allow you to do that. I loving loved the recent Life is Strange sequel for letting me choose a bunch of different outfits to wear each episode. Transmog is one of the most popular things ever added in WoW. Being able to dress Mario up in vacation clothes or a wedding dress rules. A ton of people intentionally dress up Link in the Gerudo girl clothes even though I think it's not optimal stat wise (I haven't gotten there so I dunno). Do I have even have to say anything with regards to like Heroes or Overwatch? Every game should have a dress up option. This should be a standard in games now. The most important thing
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Jan 13, 2018 17:09
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Furthermore, in games where equipment gives bonuses, they should all have vanity options so that what players actually see can be different from what bonuses you want! Monster Hunter I'm looking at you! I was so angry when I found out that TWEWY didn't actually change any of Neku's clothes when you changed equipment, and I'm only going to buy it on Switch if this glaring flaw is fixed.
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Jan 13, 2018 17:19
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It's a plus for me if your champ looks cool in a game, but it isn't content for me like it is for my nephew. I've seen him and his friends spend hours just putting on a costume, running around for a few minutes then changing to a different costume. Adults don't view cosmetics as gameplay like that, as evidenced by all the people who defend Overwatch having lootboxes in a full priced game because it's just costumes, and that's a game where costumes have more value because it's multiplayer.
CJ fucked around with this message at 19:54 on Jan 13, 2018 |
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Jan 13, 2018 19:51
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CJ posted:It's a plus for me if your champ looks cool in a game, but it isn't content for me like it is for my nephew. I've seen him and his friends spend hours just putting on a costume, running around for a few minutes then changing to a different costume. Adults don't view cosmetics as gameplay like that, as evidenced by all the people who defend Overwatch having lootboxes in a full priced game because it's just costumes, and that's a game where costumes have more value because it's multiplayer. Depending on the game, costumes are definitely content for me. I swear, I spent more time in Saints Row the Third's character creator menus than I did actually playing the game. Same for the Soul Caliburs. And a lot of Breath of the Wild was spent making Link look like the prettiest elf boy he could be.
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Jan 13, 2018 20:44
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CJ posted:It's a plus for me if your champ looks cool in a game, but it isn't content for me like it is for my nephew. I've seen him and his friends spend hours just putting on a costume, running around for a few minutes then changing to a different costume. Adults don't view cosmetics as gameplay like that, as evidenced by all the people who defend Overwatch having lootboxes in a full priced game because it's just costumes, and that's a game where costumes have more value because it's multiplayer. Why is it "adults" who don't view costumes as content? Is this a weird dig at people who like virtual dress-up or what? Just because you don't, or even most people don't, doesn't mean that's somehow related to adulthood.
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Jan 13, 2018 22:12
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splatoon 2 fashion is a vital aspect of the game because ultimately you just gotta be FRESH
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Jan 13, 2018 22:15
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CJ posted:It's a plus for me if your champ looks cool in a game, but it isn't content for me like it is for my nephew. I've seen him and his friends spend hours just putting on a costume, running around for a few minutes then changing to a different costume. Adults don't view cosmetics as gameplay like that, as evidenced by all the people who defend Overwatch having lootboxes in a full priced game because it's just costumes, and that's a game where costumes have more value because it's multiplayer. Giving people only a random subset of costumes means you get to see all the costumes in games occasionally instead of everyone picking from the few best ones. I think it'd be fine if they didn't also encourage kids to gamble with real money.
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Jan 13, 2018 22:32
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Fashion souls is an extremely important part of dark souls as well
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Jan 13, 2018 22:34
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Andrast posted:
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Jan 13, 2018 22:40
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Amppelix posted:Why is it "adults" who don't view costumes as content? Is this a weird dig at people who like virtual dress-up or what? Just because you don't, or even most people don't, doesn't mean that's somehow related to adulthood. Generally speaking, kids love playing dress up whereas adults generally aren't as enamored by it. I don't think that's a controversial statement. When i play games that let you choose your clothes i pick one that i like the look of then play the game. Changing the character's clothes over and over isn't the game in and of itself.
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Jan 13, 2018 23:05
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CJ posted:Generally speaking, kids love playing dress up whereas adults generally aren't as enamored by it. I don't think that's a controversial statement. yeah it is
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Jan 13, 2018 23:06
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The best part of Bravely Default was having super serious RPG scenes where your characters were dressed up like pirates and the Monopoly Guy 
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Jan 13, 2018 23:09
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Getting to play dress up in games is the bomb. Really though I love games with tons of clothing options and it’s always thrilling to me to get new apparel to mix and match
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Jan 13, 2018 23:15
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Just lol if you don't spend just as long on clothing customization as face customization
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Jan 13, 2018 23:48
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Imagine not liking Super Mario Odyssey.
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Jan 14, 2018 00:00
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Frankston posted:Imagine not liking Super Mario Odyssey. how contrarian and angry do you even have to be to dislike mario odyssey
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Jan 14, 2018 00:04
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mabels big day posted:SUPER MARIO!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Jan 14, 2018 00:16
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Internet Kraken posted:
I got the same vibe in Darker Side. It felt very surreal, dreamlike. Here’s all my friends, cheering me on... time to visit the skyscraper on the moon. I don’t think it’s actually supposed to be that Mario’s dying. Just got that vibe from it It was a great game. I got it for Christmas, spent the last three weeks almost just getting everything.
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Jan 15, 2018 00:16
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alf_pogs posted:how contrarian and angry do you even have to be to dislike mario odyssey But I goddamn love Mario! And generally speaking I like what most other people seem to enjoy. I even recognise that it's masterfully made in fulfilling the objective it starts out with, but it's just not masterfully made for someone of my own mindset.
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Jan 15, 2018 00:24
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Frankston posted:Imagine not liking Super Mario Odyssey.
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Jan 15, 2018 00:51
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https://twitter.com/rihanna/status/488434293996552192
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Jan 15, 2018 04:11
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i don't want to think about mario regular loving, let alone super loving
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Jan 15, 2018 05:21
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