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"I've learned about you" Moneo said to Duncan, as he let his tongue wag from his mouth, making slurrping noises at it wet his lips, "several times".
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Jan 13, 2018 02:34
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Unfortunately Herbert's books tend to use gay men exclusively as villains. Isn't Baron Harkonen a gay pedophile?
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Jan 13, 2018 03:01
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A_Bug_That_Thinks posted:"I've learned about you" Moneo said to Duncan, as he let his tongue wag from his mouth, making slurrping noises at it wet his lips, "several times".  Improbable Lobster posted:Unfortunately Herbert's books tend to use gay men exclusively as villains. Isn't Baron Harkonen a gay pedophile?
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Jan 13, 2018 03:04
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Improbable Lobster posted:Unfortunately Herbert's books tend to use gay men exclusively as villains. Isn't Baron Harkonen a gay pedophile? Well, the fish speakers could be argued to have a large gay contingent and were emplopyed as a 'progressive' peacekeeping force intended to keep the raping and collateral damage required to reign as an undying despot to a minimum.
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Jan 13, 2018 03:30
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do freemen and freewomen shave? (down their(
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Jan 13, 2018 03:33
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Milo and POTUS posted:do freemen and freewomen shave? (down their( Can you imagine what fremen pubes smell like after they've been out making GBS threads and pissing in their rubber suit for weeks?
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Jan 13, 2018 03:35
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on the other hand, being so water starved that you can basically tell an outsider from you just by the shape of your body, i can't imagine the body is producing the same amount of oils and other secretions as a water-fat heathen.
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Jan 13, 2018 03:37
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basic hitler posted:Well, the fish speakers could be argued to have a large gay contingent and were emplopyed as a 'progressive' peacekeeping force intended to keep the raping and collateral damage required to reign as an undying despot to a minimum. Sure. It's a series from the 70s and some homophobia isn't the worth thing to have to put up with in an old sci-fi novel.
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Jan 13, 2018 04:33
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Improbable Lobster posted:Unfortunately Herbert's books tend to use gay men exclusively as villains. Isn't Baron Harkonen a gay pedophile? I can't remember if it's in the books, or in something else I read, but I seem to recall the Baron cultivated his vices, such as gluttony and homosexuality, intentionally as a cloak to encourage his enemies to underestimate him. So this is not to say he wasn't gay, but he was playing it up as a ploy to let others think he was simply decadent and lacking in self-control. Villain though he is, the Baron is a great character by virtue of being a truly competent, and thus truly frightening, adversary. I also seem to remember something he wrote about homosexuals remaining in the gene pool despite not being terribly likely to reproduce, because they're advantageous, evolutionarily speaking, as they hate themselves and therefore make excellent berserkers when protecting the tribe. No idea which book that's in anymore; I've read most if not all of his books so good luck!
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Jan 13, 2018 05:08
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Well y'all really missed out by refusing to read the BH/KJA novels because in those it turns out that Paul is gay.
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Jan 13, 2018 05:11
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BrutalistMcDonalds posted:Well y'all really missed out by refusing to read the BH/KJA novels because in those it turns out that Paul is gay. Ridin' a worm with Stilgar. EDIT: The strength of the base of the pillar.
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Jan 13, 2018 05:12
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moller posted:Ridin' a worm with Stilgar. "He looked at his hand. How inadequate it appeared when measured against such creatures as that worm."
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Jan 13, 2018 05:31
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phasmid posted:As far as women go, once again, I've heard of people who had some kind of objection but I just figure that men don't write convincing women at all - women don't often write convincing men, either. Yeah he didn't actually write women all that well, imho. He has female characters that are fantastic (Jessica, Siona, Odrade) but they're obviously not 'ordinary' women. The ones that seem more 'feminine', like Hwi Noree, are actually not very interesting characters. Whether this is coincidence or whether it means that Herbert didn't like or understand what he saw as typical women, I have no idea. But it seems like him making the Bene Gesserit subtle, powerful, and able to rely on logic over emotion to such a profound extent implies to me that he thought ordinary women were lacking in all these qualities. Also I think it was quite obvious he didn't like war. God Emperor has some quote like "the worst word in any language is 'soldier'." And Leto also says somewhere that he considered removing humanity's desire for chaos and battle but that unfortunately it was buried too deep in our identities and tied to too many other things.
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Jan 13, 2018 06:52
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That's a good point. I don't remember that "soldier" quote but it kind of sounds like something he'd write. He was pretty antiwar when I read/listened to interviews or sound bites. The thing about not writing women well is an overarching theory of mine, but he seemed to have enough respect for them to at least try to write them well. Odrade was a really strange character, kind of a chosen one herself without many flaws. She was their bad bitch but she was also affectionate and good to a degree that other Bene Gesserit weren't. Maybe she died at the end because he couldn't decide to do with such a formidable character. Taken singly, she's pretty much the most powerful character in the books except for Leto, who wasn't fully human.
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Jan 13, 2018 07:14
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I think the criticism of Herbert as anti-gay comes strongly from the first novel, where Baron Harkonen was clearly a caricature of every negative personality trait he could cram in; petty and 'evil' sure, but also ugly, unprofessional, and a huge capital-H Hedonist by being obese, a drug addict (iirc?), and a pervert who preyed on staff, small children, and was homosexual. The gay part is probably less of an intentional bash and just him casually throwing poo poo at the wall like the other traits. After the book came out and Herbert got flak for it, we get the gay Fish Speakers and Duncan being preached at in God Emperor, which was a really heavy-handed way to soapbox and have Herbert claim that he's totally not anti-gay, I swear!
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Jan 13, 2018 09:52
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I don't regard the baron as homophobic. I hate to pull the "i'm a cocksucker irl" card, but I am, and there's so much worse about him that his sexuality neither comes off as the source of his wicked nature nor does it seem to factor into it much except a lust for his nephew he channels into a desire to groom him into an heir.
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Jan 13, 2018 10:22
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Yeah honestly I can't imagine anyone, even when the book was written, viewing him as much better if he was the same but hosed young girls instead of young boys.
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Jan 13, 2018 11:06
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Shrug. The baron didn't bother me in the slightest and I first read the series too young to pick up on some of the other things people are saying about Herbert's writing/characters, but I do know that Herbert got accused of homophobia, and that's my closest rationale.
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Jan 13, 2018 11:09
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One of the things I really loved and found thought provoking about Dune is that the Baron is clearly the bad guy and yet he and the Harkonnens are not bad so much as they are worse than everyone else. The Atreides, the Bene Gesserit, Paul's Fremen Empire, Leto II all have their share of atrocities.
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Jan 13, 2018 11:57
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Which is also why it's hard to pin down Herbert's worldview in general. Like you'd think a feudal sci fi setting would be fascist or something like that, like Heinlein, but it loving blows and even the Atreides are basically poo poo -- just not actively maliciously poo poo. But you don't see the imaginings of a better world like you do with socialist sci-fi writers, the only real better alternative being The Scattering which is more about everyone not dying and getting the hell away from the core worlds.
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Jan 13, 2018 12:05
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I think they even explicitly mentioned that in Heretics or Chapterhouse. I recall one of the characters saying something about 'too bad when Leto conceived the Golden Path he only ensured our survival and not our happiness.'
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Jan 13, 2018 12:15
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Its a strain of libertatian environmentalism that doesnt really exist outside of a few isolated shacks in Oregon and Maine.
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Jan 13, 2018 16:47
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I would disagree only because I just can only infer from his dune books a vague cold-war era conservative strain of thinking that nobody born on or around 1989 would understand or recognize in the western world that i would hesitate to call libertarian
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Jan 13, 2018 16:49
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Ok. You convinced me. I'm snagging the original trilogy.
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Jan 13, 2018 17:21
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spacetoaster posted:Ok. You convinced me. I'm snagging the original trilogy. Unless you absolutely hate the first three (or at least 2 and 3, I don't see how anyone who even remotely likes sci-fi could hate 1), you've got to pick up four. It's so goddamn weird.
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Jan 13, 2018 17:23
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Murray Mantoinette posted:One of the things I really loved and found thought provoking about Dune is that the Baron is clearly the bad guy and yet he and the Harkonnens are not bad so much as they are worse than everyone else. The Atreides, the Bene Gesserit, Paul's Fremen Empire, Leto II all have their share of atrocities. It's been a while but I'm pretty sure that as early as the second book it's made abundantly and totally clear that Paul and the Fremen have become monsters on a previously unimaginable scale, spreading death and suffering beyond comparison to anything that came before. I think this is why Paul becomes a raving street preacher and why his kids and up doing what they do.
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Jan 13, 2018 23:57
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moller posted:It's been a while but I'm pretty sure that as early as the second book it's made abundantly and totally clear that Paul and the Fremen have become monsters on a previously unimaginable scale, spreading death and suffering beyond comparison to anything that came before. I think this is why Paul becomes a raving street preacher and why his kids and up doing what they do. It's also a pretty good twist on the chosen one cliche, Paul ends up creating a more oppressive destructive regime than the one he replaced.
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Jan 14, 2018 00:04
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Messiah is about the internal struggle of paul being a slave to his own prescience and watching as the jihad he initiated basically leaves him behind and no longer needs nor wants his direction, yet that was the best path forward that he was willing to take, being unable to do what his son would eventually do.
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Jan 14, 2018 00:33
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basic hitler posted:Messiah is about the internal struggle of paul being a slave to his own prescience and watching as the jihad he initiated basically leaves him behind and no longer needs nor wants his direction, yet that was the best path forward that he was willing to take, being unable to do what his son would eventually do. That plot point, free will vs. determinism, was fairly popular in the 1970s. Another example is Larry Niven's "Protector," where the Brennan Monster talk about how little free will he has now that his heightened intelligence gives him answers to questions before he's finished asking them. How much free will did Paul have in starting the Jihad, knowing that it was both the best course of action and simultaneously horrible? That's some good sci-fi there.
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Jan 14, 2018 01:20
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mycomancy posted:That plot point, free will vs. determinism, was fairly popular in the 1970s. Another example is Larry Niven's "Protector," where the Brennan Monster talk about how little free will he has now that his heightened intelligence gives him answers to questions before he's finished asking them. It's made pretty clear in Messiah over and over again that the Jihad isn't the best path, but all the better ones require horrible sacrifices he's not willing to make.
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Jan 14, 2018 01:35
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So I love cheap pulpy mid-century sci-fi, often just for the covers. I've had this one in a box for ages, probably spent all of 25 cents for it at the flea market. Well, that... sure looks familiar, don't it? Anyways, powering through this thread inspired me to give it a read. Turns out it's about a guy, Anthony, who goes to another planet (Venus) as an unwitting pawn in a greater scheme. Venus is the source of beans that extend life and consciousness --- but the bean plants only grow on Venus. So the rich and powerful Earth people plan to take over Venus, and keep all them beans for themselves. Trouble is, there's indigenous people on Venus. No problem, there's not very many natives and they aren't nearly as advanced or powerful as us! But the Earthlings vastly underestimate the powers and sheer numbers of the Venusians, because they're really good at keeping both a secret from these invaders. Anthony catches wind of the evil plans meant for both him and the natives, and escapes into the wilderness. There, he meets up with some Venusians who take him into their tribe, explain why he's always seemed different (it involves his lineage), and show him how to tap into his awesome mental powers. He sides with the Venusians, and because he's so different from any Earthling or Venusian, rises to become their leader and leads a revolt against the Earthling colonies! Using the Venusian abilities to control giant worms! Yay! Well, that... sure sounds familiar, doesn't it? The crazy thing is both this book and Dune were published in 1965. Dune was originally published in two parts in Analog, though, and We, the Venusians is only 138 pages long. If it's not a case of Rackham copycatting Herbert, it's a hell of a coincidence. It's not a bad read, and I liked some of the details; like how humans can't make music anymore and Venusians don't even have a concept of it, so everyone's mind is blown because Anthony can play a piano. Basically a fast food Dune compared to Herbert's 7-course, Michelin starred meal, but hey, sometimes you want something cheap and bad for you while you're waiting for the bus.
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Jan 15, 2018 17:40
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The fight scene between Paul and the Fremen Jamis I think, and the fall out from the fight was one of the best in the book so far. Really starting with Paul and his mother being out in the sand alone through meeting the Fremen has been a great ride.
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Jan 15, 2018 18:31
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He didn't want to kill.
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Jan 15, 2018 18:58
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I remember Jamis.
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Jan 15, 2018 19:35
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JacquelineDempsey posted:So I love cheap pulpy mid-century sci-fi, often just for the covers. I've had this one in a box for ages, probably spent all of 25 cents for it at the flea market. This is crazy and now I wanna read this terrible rushed to market imitator book
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Jan 15, 2018 19:38
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quote:[Iron Maiden] Lead singer Bruce Dickinson referred to Frank Herbert as "a bit of a oval office" because "among other things, he said that if we called this track that we wrote on the album 'Dune,' that he'd sue us and stop the album coming out, and all kinds of very unpleasant things." Dickinson made these remarks at a concert in Stockholm, Sweden, on June 5th, 1983.
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Jan 15, 2018 19:47
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weird conservative hates metal?!
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Jan 15, 2018 19:49
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As far as luminaries of fiction go, I think Herbert's faults were pretty quaint compared to his contemporaries/people a generation earlier. He didn't really go past his pulpit (his own books) and whatever he was like in private, he wasn't out to start an empire either. It's not like he was one of those WASP archons like Walt Disney. 
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Jan 15, 2018 20:12
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he was just a dude who wrote brilliant insightful scifi and measuring men's quality by their politics is incredibly dumb.
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Jan 15, 2018 20:43
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basic hitler posted:This is crazy and now I wanna read this terrible rushed to market imitator book As a thank you for starting this awesome thread (I'm a YUGE Dune fan, have been since I watched the Alan Smithee version when it aired on tv in the mid 80's (yes, I'm an old goonette)), I'll be happy to mail my copy to you. PM me.
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Jan 15, 2018 22:05
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