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Madurai posted:Is it really just that they give them officer uniforms? Does the khaki dye cause some kind of biochemical reaction? Go remind a chief there's an e in front of that 7 and find out lol. My dad was very confused when I was telling him about navy chief culture, he comes from the sir force and told me it's literally the same going e5 to e6 as it is e6 to e7. That was 30 years ago though, maybe the air force changed (narrator voice: they havent).
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Jan 12, 2018 18:38
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When I was on San Clemente Island, I found out an air force Master Sergeant would be coming out for some maintenance and I needed to help him. He acted like a normal enlisted guy. It was really weird.
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Jan 12, 2018 19:02
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If it's not too much to ask can you guys explain the chief thing to me, and is it like actually important to running the Navy well
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Jan 12, 2018 19:05
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shovelbum posted:If it's not too much to ask can you guys explain the chief thing to me, and is it like actually important to running the Navy well In short? Yes. It’s lower to middle management and has a purpose. You can’t expect nobles to understand the average knuckledragger.
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Jan 12, 2018 19:22
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shovelbum posted:If it's not too much to ask can you guys explain the chief thing to me, and is it like actually important to running the Navy well In my experience senior e6s can do the exact job a chief does so the separation is silly and useless. It's important to the navy insofar as like our resident reservist IT pointed out they're middle management, but the actual e7 distinction only matters because all of the e7s made a tree fort that only they are allowed into. If they were less insular it would all work the same. Literally the only issues I ever had when we were between chiefs was when the mess wouldn't let us Into the clubhouse to discuss evals so we had to bend the department master chiefs arm.
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Jan 12, 2018 19:47
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Coming from the private sector for 20 years before even joining the Navy I find the Chief category to extremely unique in a work place.
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Jan 12, 2018 19:51
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LingcodKilla posted:Coming from the private sector for 20 years before even joining the Navy I find the Chief category to extremely unique in a work place. In what way?
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Jan 12, 2018 19:53
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The modern Chiefs mess is basically useless.
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Jan 12, 2018 19:53
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I should clarify. Some Chiefs are A-OK. I’ve known some great chiefs in the past. But the Chiefs mess as a whole is superfluous and unnecessary. It creates a meaningless divide in enlisted ranks and it functions more as a protection racket for bad chiefs.
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Jan 12, 2018 19:56
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PneumonicBook posted:In what way? It’s literally a club house with initiation like a college frat. You simply don’t find that anywhere else on such a grand scale. Is it a bad thing? Nah, I love custom but you gotta at least see it for what it is, an archaic system for promoting men of ability but not birth.
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Jan 12, 2018 20:00
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As far as the history goes, you have to look back to the days of sail. In the Royal Navy Nobles were literal nobles where all of the enlisted people were peasants or quite literally impressed in the service. People that stuck around on the enlisted side long enough where eventually called petty officers which was a turn of phrase on petite officers or little officers. The most senior among them were given ceremonial titles and uniforms very similar to the officers they served under. From there and with modern advances we ended up with more people on ships and more specialization so you end up with more chief petty officer‘s and they eventually segregated themselves from the rest of the regular workingmen.
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Jan 12, 2018 20:02
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LingcodKilla posted:It’s literally a club house with initiation like a college frat. You simply don’t find that anywhere else on such a grand scale. Is it a bad thing? Nah, I love custom but you gotta at least see it for what it is, an archaic system for promoting men of ability but not birth. Chief selection has nothing to do with ability and more hitting arbitrary wickets the board wants to see.
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Jan 12, 2018 20:03
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Mr. Nice! posted:Chief selection has nothing to do with ability and more hitting arbitrary wickets the board wants to see. Reality is different than theory, yes. That said I’ve interacted with many great chiefs in the Reserves. Also had a master chief with less than year to retire who went out of their way to make our ATs not poo poo.
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Jan 12, 2018 20:11
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Here is a warm uplifting Chief story for you. The Chiefs on my boat were always mad at my sonar chief. Why you ask? Because he would stand sonar supervisor watch instead of diving officer watch. We had enough sonar supervisors to barely maintain a 3 sup rotation while the dive watch was at 7 section. The rest of us normal sonar watchstanders at that time had to stand port/stbd watch. When we finally had enough manning (just before westpac is the only time the detailers make sure you have a proper amount of staffing) to stand a 3 section sonar watch they had my chief stand diving officer watch. 8 section duty at sea. 1 watch every 2 days doing standard 6 hour watch rotation. He told us he spent 16hrs in the rack and only got out of bed because he had to piss so drat bad. He also claimed to feel guilty as hell and when we went on westpac he was back in sonar doing a 4 section sonar supervisor rotation.
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Jan 12, 2018 22:19
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The Chiefs mess is the most useless, toxic organization you could possibly assemble out of a group of people who on an individual basis are often outstanding leaders and people.
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Jan 12, 2018 23:24
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I'm from a non-US navy, and I have a bit of a hard time with the terminology here. Help me out a bit. What does a sonar supervisor do? I think I might be one, but then I'm the only one aboard the ship. Also what watchstanding do a sonar/dive supervisor do? I don't think I even understand what a dive supervisor/watchstander does? Also there's no chief's mess here, all petty officers dine in the same mess. Also a 7 or 8 section watch lol, I don't know how we'd ever accomplish that. I think the engineers and some techs may do a 4 or 5 section watch, but that's about as easy as it gets. OS's and comms all do port/starboard quarter watches - of course you can always dismiss a few guys if nothing's happening - but you still need to be able to react if something happens. v  vFor the record I'm a PO/OR-5 specialised in ASW so I manage all OS ratings in ASW and do a watch as ASuW/ASW section leader when at sea, and assist the OR-8 in charge of the section in planning, training, education and day to day stuff. Ok that's my navy story, thanks for listening!
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Jan 12, 2018 23:26
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The way I’ve seen it is 90% of the people who stay in were bullied in high school and stayed in because they finally have “power” over people. I honestly couldn’t believe it when some master chief went off on my buddy for cutting a literal foot off the crosswalk and tried to send him to mast.
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Jan 13, 2018 00:15
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Anita Dickinme posted:The way I’ve seen it is 90% of the people who stay in were bullied in high school and stayed in because they finally have “power” over people. I honestly couldn’t believe it when some master chief went off on my buddy for cutting a literal foot off the crosswalk and tried to send him to mast. I can definitely see that as a Master-at-Arms motivator. (Sorry, MAA's who are decent people. I assume you're out there somewhere.)
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Jan 13, 2018 00:50
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lol being a noble is loving rad. I'll never forget the look on one of my CMC's face while I was a department head as I was losing my poo poo all over him and telling him I was taking him to mast for countermanding an order I made earlier. The XO came in pretty hot at me afterwards but definitely changed his tune after I explained the situation. He never went to mast unfortunately, but he never hosed with my department again though.
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Jan 13, 2018 00:55
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That was the same douche who during an argument about the liberty policy told me that, "I didn't understand what junior sailors were like," because I was an officer. My response to him was, "based on the amount of sailors who talk to me about problems with you I don't think you understand them either master chief." That face was pretty loving priceless too.
ManMythLegend fucked around with this message at 02:21 on Jan 13, 2018 |
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Jan 13, 2018 00:59
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That all said, the Chief's Mess can actually be a force multiplier that enables operations better then a bunch of disparate CPO's can. I just takes a lot of adult supervision by the CO and XO plus a CMC who gets it and makes the group work and not just be some dumb loving clubhouse.
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Jan 13, 2018 01:02
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-Anders posted:I'm from a non-US navy, and I have a bit of a hard time with the terminology here. Help me out a bit. Sonar Supervisor is the guy who oversees the 3-5 guys running the systems in the sonar shack. Diving officer keeps the ship 'balanced' by telling the Chief of the Watch to move water/othershit around tanks and executes depth changes as ordered by the OOD.
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Jan 13, 2018 01:06
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ManMythLegend posted:That was the same douche who during an argument about the liberty policy told me that, "I didn't understand what junior sailors were like," because I was an officer. My response to him was, "based on the amount of sailors who talk to me about problems with you I don't think you understand then either master chief." That face was pretty loving priceless too. would have been 20x better with riker grin tbh
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Jan 13, 2018 01:24
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ManMythLegend posted:That all said, the Chief's Mess can actually be a force multiplier that enables operations better then a bunch of disparate CPO's can. I just takes a lot of adult supervision by the CO and XO plus a CMC who gets it and makes the group work and not just be some dumb loving clubhouse. Is this anything beyond theoretical?
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Jan 13, 2018 01:37
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Stultus Maximus posted:Is this anything beyond theoretical? Yeah, I've had a couple of them actually.
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Jan 13, 2018 01:38
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ManMythLegend posted:That all said, the Chief's Mess can actually be a force multiplier that enables operations better then a bunch of disparate CPO's can. I just takes a lot of adult supervision by the CO and XO plus a CMC who gets it and makes the group work and not just be some dumb loving clubhouse. How much astrology and planet alignment have you had go perfect for you in your life?
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Jan 13, 2018 01:39
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I'm kinda worried if I ever meet MML in person because it will break my illusion that he's Jonathan Frakes with a wicked beard.
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Jan 13, 2018 01:40
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M_Gargantua posted:How much astrology and planet alignment have you had go perfect for you in your life? I mean my perspective on how it works has changed a lot going from DIVO to DH to CO. It was something I was always watching and trying to figure out how to make work. It does take some luck, but if you have a CO willing to tell the CMC that the reindeer games will stop if command performance doesn't meet muster it can absolutely be done. Also, not being afraid to DFC lovely chefs. ManMythLegend fucked around with this message at 02:20 on Jan 13, 2018 |
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Jan 13, 2018 01:44
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orange juche posted:I'm kinda worried if I ever meet MML in person because it will break my illusion that he's Jonathan Frakes with a wicked beard. MML is actually a very attractive man. He’s tall with a granite jaw.
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Jan 13, 2018 01:48
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orange juche posted:I'm kinda worried if I ever meet MML in person because it will break my illusion that he's Jonathan Frakes with a wicked beard. Hahahaha, I definitely don't. I wish though. I have been told at various times that I look like David Duchovny, Nathan Fillion, and Woody Harrelson (with hair) (gently caress you piL  ).Take from that what you will.
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Jan 13, 2018 01:49
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Mr. Nice! posted:MML is actually a very attractive man. He’s tall with a granite jaw. He sounds too reasonable to be true...
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Jan 13, 2018 01:49
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Mr. Nice! posted:MML is actually a very attractive man. He’s tall with a granite jaw. 
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Jan 13, 2018 02:13
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M_Gargantua posted:How much astrology and planet alignment have you had go perfect for you in your life? Regular Division Chiefs don't really do all that much compared to E-7s in other branches (then again across the board Navy E-6s are completely underutilized) but DLCPOs do a lot on the ships I've been on. I've seen the difference between a lovely CMC and a good one and it's very much night and day in how much influence and how much of an effect on the operation of the ship the Chief's Mess has.
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Jan 13, 2018 03:50
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Yeah, I think with some really good people you get, a pretty good organization. Problem is most of the fuckheads who stayed in long enough to get E-7 are not what qualify as "pretty good people". I think the way the culture and the tradition of the "chief" is built in the modern navy hurts more than it helps.
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Jan 13, 2018 04:00
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Literally lol at mml's story.
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Jan 13, 2018 05:53
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ManMythLegend posted:Hahahaha, I definitely don't. I wish though. I think if it was just the Command Photo, nobody would have noticed for a week. Edit: a good mess gives more power over disparate ratings to the good chiefs as they leverage their relationship while coming at the cost of protecting the bad ones. It also creates an organization that can provide social incentive for performance. Chiefs are obviously expected to train their subordinates but also their junior officers, and as I understand it, if your Ensign continues to struggle in ways that are preventable, the mess provides immediate feedback that orders from a department head and an annual ranking board are not as effective at communicating. piL fucked around with this message at 16:53 on Jan 13, 2018 |
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Jan 13, 2018 16:43
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piL posted:I think if it was just the Command Photo, nobody would have noticed for a week. You're probably right.
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Jan 13, 2018 16:44
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Chiefs are like any SNCO, the good ones do awesome work, take care of their men and ensure you have what you need to execute. The bad ones make you go "gently caress this I am not sticking around longer than I have to dealing with their crap".
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Jan 14, 2018 05:03
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my chief was so good at hiding behind his lpo that i didn't realize it was him keeping us late every loving day just because he was poo poo at planning poo poo out.
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Jan 14, 2018 09:11
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To be fair if I had infinite manpower with no reprecussions id probably be a lazy non-planning piece of poo poo too.
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Jan 14, 2018 13:58
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