|
Tallgeese posted:DS2 had the best poise system. I have to respect old crazy powerful DS1 poise, because it was the best working with laggy p2p connections. DS1 poise-weight optimisation can die in a gutter. Though it was unconfirmed rumour, i still like to imagine DS1 with DS3 engine enemies and encounter designs. Balder Knights in Parish with infinite combos and then the Black Knight show up for funsies...
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2018 14:43
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 4, 2024 08:49 |
|
|
DS1 poise was garbage mostly because it made the whole backstab meta actually viable. If you brought it back into ds3 youd get that again where people just poise through your attacks to get to your back for a stab. So if you like backstabs being the main attack then sure bring back DS1 poise.
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2018 14:49
|
|
|
i restatted and these giant doors are hilarious, i ate a bunch of gael's attacks as a sunbro e: i think i got summoned to NG+ gael, host summoned 3 phantoms and gael had like 200k health and was oneshotting people (we all had tears up). i think someone was using pestilent mercury but i don't know what the graphic for that looks like, did a poo poo ton of damage though where the red fern gropes fucked around with this message at 15:54 on Jan 13, 2018 |
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2018 14:52
|
|
|
Still looking to do some early trades for a new character. Steam name same as SA name for anyone intrested.
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2018 17:15
|
|
|
Iretep posted:DS1 poise was garbage mostly because it made the whole backstab meta actually viable. If you brought it back into ds3 youd get that again where people just poise through your attacks to get to your back for a stab. So if you like backstabs being the main attack then sure bring back DS1 poise.
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2018 18:08
|
|
|
IronicDongz posted:one of the foundational features of the entire series is that people can come into your game unexpectedly and attack you OK, but... is it really though? I've seen similar stuff said in plenty of articles and deep dives about the series, but I wouldn't call invasions 'foundational' at all. Depending on how you approach playing Souls I can see why they might be a big part of the appeal, especially for more advanced players, but invasions have essentially nothing to do with why I play the series, which is entirely for the single-player. I find the consensual PVP boring and the semi-consensual invasions at best tedious and at worst frustrating. Plus I get the poo poo kicked out of me 100% of the time because whoever is invading is always better at PVP than me because I don't give a gently caress about it and they do. I know this isn't everyone's experience, and most people still posting in a DS3 thread this long after release will obviously be significantly more interested in multi than your average Souls player, but I'd posit that most people who play Dark Souls to any degree don't give a huge poo poo about invasions and basically wouldn't care in the slightest if they were removed. That figure increasing to nearly 100% of players new to the series. They don't contribute much to game progression or difficulty (I'd even argue that they run counter to the rest of Souls' ideas about designed, surmountable difficulty, since they essentially introduce the possibility that you'll just randomly encounter some Souls expert who you have no realistic chance of defeating). I'm not saying invasions are a bad idea or anything, but I don't think they're 'foundational'. They're not some immovable lynchpin of the series without which it falls apart. They're just an added multiplayer element with which many players don't even engage.
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2018 18:38
|
|
|
these games wouldnt get replayed as often if it didnt have have invasions and co-op in it.
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2018 18:46
|
|
|
...! posted:From is saying that the upcoming Dark Souls 1 remaster will use the Dark Souls 3 engine. That should be... interesting. Already have some idiots griping about that ruining the purity of the game and other nonsense. That has nothing to do with the matchmaking. Out of all the games, DS1 invasion matchmaking is probably the fairest, because it's -10% to infinity, as I recall. So you can invade someone slightly (like by one or two levels) lower leveled than you, or literally any at a higher level. So greatest opportunity for invasions while also making it fair. The issue is that there's a lot of ways to accumulate strength while being at a low level. The so-called twinking. Maxed out elemental weapons being a big one of course, but even just winning invasions will make you significantly stronger than most players. The defense boost from having 99 liquid humanity will make you nigh invulnerable to most casual players until around Anor Londo. And even beyond that, the somewhat open-ended nature of the game, especially what with how it handles weapon upgrades, also causes a potentially massive power imbalance. Weapon upgrade levels are super crucial for having good damage output, and they're gated very linearly along the game's core progression path with the placement of the blacksmith embers. So if you're going through the game in an odd way, and thus not picking up those embers as early as possible, you end up massively weaker than potential invaders who are just playing through the game normally. I ran into that when stream sniping in DS1 the other day. The character I used was just a regular character I had been playing through with some years back, no OP bullshit, no heavy armor, just a +5 large club, and yet the people I invaded did very little damage to me. Purely because they hadn't upgraded their weapons all that much. That didn't affect their ability to progress through the single player, but it did affect their invasion experience. So yeah, it's the balancing that causes that issue, not the matchmaking itself.
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2018 18:48
|
|
|
Invasions were there since demons souls and continue to be a feature of every single Soulsborne game ever made By definition it's a foundational aspect of the series. That's how that word works
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2018 18:48
|
|
|
Faux Mulder posted:OK, but... is it really though? just because you avoid it doesn't mean it's not a massive part of the series
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2018 18:49
|
|
|
Invaders aren't an insurmountable challenge though. You might not be able to beat every invader every time, but how is that different from any other encounter in the game? And yeah I'd say it's a foundational aspect of the game because it's the risk you accept when you go human, presumably to summon phantoms for help. If you remove that the game would change significantly. It would be too drat easy if you could just summon more people without having to worry about another human invading your world to gently caress your poo poo up.
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2018 18:51
|
|
|
IronicDongz posted:yeah OK, but you didn't say 'massive', you said 'foundational'. Would Demons Souls and Dark Souls not have done well without the invasion mechanic? Would Dark Souls 1 not have been one of the most important games of that generation if people didn't occasionally spawn in and kick gently caress out of new players? Fister Roboto posted:Invaders aren't an insurmountable challenge though. You might not be able to beat every invader every time, but how is that different from any other encounter in the game? That's a good point - I only really ever summon help for boss battles near the fog doors, and not to help with overworld stuff, so I guess I'm less exposed to invasions as a consequence. (and for all intents and purposes invasions are an insurmountable challenge for me since as I said I lose every time).
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2018 19:06
|
|
|
Faux Mulder posted:OK, but you didn't say 'massive', you said 'foundational'. Would Demons Souls and Dark Souls not have done well without the invasion mechanic? Would Dark Souls 1 not have been one of the most important games of that generation if people didn't occasionally spawn in and kick gently caress out of new players? If invasions are insurmountable for you, you should try staying near your coop partner and pressing R1. I don't mean to be rude, but having even a single extra person on your side gives you such a massive advantage in these games, and ds3 invasion matchmaking heavily favors hosts with summons. When a host has phantoms with them, they can do extremely unsafe things and not get punished for it, because if the invader moves in to do so they'll get hit by the other person spamming UGS R1's right next to the host. Meanwhile, the invader has to play close to perfect to not get demolished... and none of this is taking into account the way that hosts get 30% extra HP, and double the estus of phantoms. Surviving invaders has never ever been easier than in ds3. LazyMaybe fucked around with this message at 19:13 on Jan 13, 2018 |
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2018 19:09
|
|
|
IronicDongz posted:In my opinion, the games would not be nearly as good without invasions. Opening your world to coop also opening your world to a pvp invader is the single most interesting gameplay idea in the series. Yeah, on reflection I've never really considered invasions in that framing. They're always just a hassle for no reason with me since I don't summon for co-op. The most interesting ideas for me are in the level and encounter design. It's cool how this series does stuff for a bunch of different types of player while remaining cohesive.
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2018 19:15
|
|
|
If invasions bother you so much, join the Way of Blue.
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2018 19:38
|
|
|
What souls games have been released without invasion mechanics? I don't think it's a stretch to say that from sees them as essential to the experience But yeah they do allow for quite a bit of flexibility in that regard
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2018 19:39
|
|
|
Bloodborne lol
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2018 19:40
|
|
|
Ehh lovely and limited invasions are still invasions
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2018 19:41
|
|
|
Sakurazuka posted:Bloodborne lol Good one. 
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2018 19:43
|
|
|
Faux Mulder posted:I find the consensual PVP boring and the semi-consensual invasions at best tedious and at worst frustrating. Sometimes invaders (or invadees) do tedious stuff that can't be fun for anyone involved, but the creative things that people do, and the crazy stuff that emerges naturally, are some of the most memorable experiences I've had in over 20 years of playing video games. Just seeing what happens is way more important than winning or losing. There's something special about spontaneous teamwork and simultaneous identical gestures between players who have no way of communicating with each other aside from gameplay that's just different from other games in a way that's hard to describe. Unless you're trying to grind covenant items for achievements, that makes it way less fun, especially when you've been waiting ages for an auto-summon.
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2018 19:53
|
|
|
Faux Mulder posted:OK, but you didn't say 'massive', you said 'foundational'. Would Demons Souls and Dark Souls not have done well without the invasion mechanic? Would Dark Souls 1 not have been one of the most important games of that generation if people didn't occasionally spawn in and kick gently caress out of new players? You’re confusing something being foundational, and something being the game ”could have done well without” hth
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2018 20:32
|
|
|
Bleck posted:If invasions bother you so much, join the Way of Blue. 
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2018 20:39
|
|
|
Calling invasions an insurmountable challenge because you, personally, are bad at them is kind of silly, because Iudex Gundyr is an insurmountable challenge for a lot of players. You can't say that Dark Souls is all about surmountable challenges and then say that you could easily remove the challenges that you can't beat.
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2018 20:43
|
|
|
something you can compleatly ignore cant be a insurmountable challenge.
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2018 20:46
|
|
|
Fister Roboto posted:Calling invasions an insurmountable challenge because you, personally, are bad at them is kind of silly, because Iudex Gundyr is an insurmountable challenge for a lot of players. You can't say that Dark Souls is all about surmountable challenges and then say that you could easily remove the challenges that you can't beat.
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2018 20:49
|
|
|
I don't think many people are calling for invasions to be removed. Just revised as twinking really was a problem for DS1. It's outright impossible for new players to kill invaders with max weapons, armor, pyro flames, and 99 humanity. Without the use of gravity. The easy solution is just to go through the undead burg in hollow form to avoid it. DS2 & 3 went out of their way to try and avoid this from happening again, even if their fixes were terrible.
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2018 20:55
|
|
|
soul memory is a lame fix, but there's nothing wrong with ds3's weapon upgrade matchmaking.
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2018 20:58
|
|
|
As I've said before, the idea of invasions is cool, but the execution has consistently been pretty inept. I think DS2 got the closest with Soul Memory (although it was still a bad system for its stated goals). Realistically, you need an ilvl system, some kind of restriction on equipment swapping during invasions, and dedicated servers to make them not consistently feel like bullshit on either end.IronicDongz posted:soul memory is a lame fix, but there's nothing wrong with ds3's weapon upgrade matchmaking. The weapon upgrade matchmaking isn't bad. DS3's problems lie much, much more with the phantom system which, when combined with the Estus restrictions, pushes invaders into doing cheesy loving one-hit builds as the only solution.
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2018 21:00
|
|
|
Invading is fine in ds3. You are at a big disadvantage, and must use the level and your gear smartly to win. That's good! If you want something more fair you can hang out in undead matches. Invasions are for when you want to be the underdog, but win via being better than your opponents. My ideal invasion is when I'm against 3 people, so they have a huge advantage, but they'll all bad(happens pretty often because you don't become good playing like that). Why do you want a restriction on equipment swapping during invasions? That's one of the best things about it. Using stuff like silvercat ring to escape, swapping to estus ring to get the most healing out of the recharges you get from phantoms, hiding with obscuring ring and pestering people with a greatbow when they camp around a bonfire to get them to play the level, etc. It's also definitely not required to do high damage oneshot builds. Not that those even work against people who actually level vig. Y'all need to watch more saint_riot
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2018 21:05
|
|
|
IronicDongz posted:Invading is fine in ds3. You are at a big disadvantage, and must use the level and your gear smartly to win. That's good! It isn't when the only effective builds for invading involve outrageous burst combos to deal with 3 people trying to annihilate you all at once. That's the fundamental issue with the phantom system of DS3: it encourages degenerate builds to try and level the playing field. quote:Why do you want a restriction on equipment swapping during invasions? The basic idea is that, if you use an ilvl system to give as equal a playing field as possible, you have to restrict the gear that people can swap out, or else use a weird averaging system for all of the gear you have in your inventory. I think weapon matchmaking is close, but, especially in DS3, you can gain a pretty significant advantage in percentile reduction by getting later, upgraded armor (like the Faraam armor), or by bringing in spells that otherwise wouldn't be accessible at that stage in the game. You could probably allow the swapping of things like rings, although I still dislike poo poo like Hornet Ring swapping because of the massive advantage it gives to people willing to invest the hundreds of hours necessary to get the muscle memory for it down pat.
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2018 21:09
|
|
|
Vermain posted:It isn't when the only effective builds for invading involve outrageous burst combos to deal with 3 people trying to annihilate you all at once. That's the fundamental issue with the phantom system of DS3: it encourages degenerate builds to try and level the playing field. good thing not a single thing here is true or it'd be a bummer. thankfully ds3 invasions are almost perfect
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2018 21:12
|
|
|
Sloppy Milkshake posted:good thing not a single thing here is true or it'd be a bummer. thankfully ds3 invasions are almost perfect Nah.
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2018 21:13
|
|
|
Vermain posted:It isn't when the only effective builds for invading involve outrageous burst combos to deal with 3 people trying to annihilate you all at once. again, watch more people who are good at this. saint riot invades gank squads with stuff like his purposefully lovely vampire hunter build and wins pretty frequently, because people who play with phantoms all the time are almost always poo poo
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2018 21:17
|
|
|
Iretep posted:DS1 poise was garbage mostly because it made the whole backstab meta actually viable. If you brought it back into ds3 youd get that again where people just poise through your attacks to get to your back for a stab. So if you like backstabs being the main attack then sure bring back DS1 poise. Bring back poise Don't bring back backstabs
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2018 21:19
|
|
|
I've said it before and I'll say it again you won't want ds1 poise when you run into a havelmom using a buffed estoc
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2018 21:21
|
|
|
We can only hope that they arbitrarily port DkS3 mechanics so full havels is also fastroll and benefits from DWGR
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2018 21:27
|
|
|
Yeah I like the DS3 system the best. Even if the odds are stacked against the invader. That's how it should be anyway. It's tough but you can win against people with 2 or 3 phantoms, if they're just playing through the level. Gankers are tough to deal with, but even they're beatable sometimes because they are usually idiots. It is extremely annoying how easy it is for people to roll spam and resummon when you kill their phantoms though.
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2018 21:33
|
|
|
IronicDongz posted:good thing that that's not true then I watched Oroboro for the first two or three months of release and it looked absolutely miserable for anyone not running purely optimized builds, and the general consesus at the time was that you went Gotthard's or bust. Did they change invasion mechanics at all during that time?
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2018 21:44
|
|
|
Looks like it's confirmed that DS remastered will use the exact same engine as the original, no DS3 tweaks I think anyone who is vaguely familiar with how from soft works (or what remaster means) would realize that it was a stupid sounding rumor to begin with, don't expect anything more than what DSfix can already achieve No idea why that rumor got so much steam because it set off my bullshit alarms instantly
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2018 21:48
|
|
|
|
| # ? Jun 4, 2024 08:49 |
|
|
Also DS2 pvp is best pvp, it felt balanced enough and was a fun game of trying to read each other's moves and react accordingly No roll spam bullshit
|
|
#
?
Jan 13, 2018 21:52
|
|