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Miftan posted:I think that since that millionaire is the leader of the party it's fair to say they reflect on each other though? I don't think so. I think it reflects on entitled Israeli בני טובים culture, which is very close to trashy big-money culture around the world. It's just a really weird way of attacking Likud through guilt-by-association when there are so many credible instances you could point to (like the notorious Limor Livnat speech where a Likud audience answered her rhetorical questions about them wanting patronage with a resounding "yes!", or, you know, a literal pimp MK).
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Jan 12, 2018 14:58
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Absurd Alhazred posted:I don't think so. I think it reflects on entitled Israeli בני טובים culture, which is very close to trashy big-money culture around the world. It's just a really weird way of attacking Likud through guilt-by-association when there are so many credible instances you could point to (like the notorious Limor Livnat speech where a Likud audience answered her rhetorical questions about them wanting patronage with a resounding "yes!", or, you know, a literal pimp MK). Maybe, but I can't help but not be surprised by the fact that a person cultivating that kind of culture in the party he leads wouldn't discourage it in his own family.
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Jan 12, 2018 15:00
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Yair Netanyahu is pretty much just some stereotypical frat boy, he may be trashy but there are many others like him, and if you believe that "my dad hooked yours up with 20 billion usd" is some smoking gun then well, I don't know what to say. He's just some spoiled brat. Perhaps a little more antisemitic.
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Jan 12, 2018 19:16
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Speaking of the Likudiada, though..quote:Attendees of ruling Likud party's annual conference in Eilat resort town face dozens of local residents protesting Supermarket Law and their city not being excluded from it; 'Likud passed the law and then shamelessly came down to celebrate in our city, we want tourists to keep coming,' protesters said.
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Jan 13, 2018 02:24
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Absurd Alhazred posted:What evidence do you have that Labor had more support to form a government? And while traditionally the party with the largest plurality gets the first chance, what actually happens is that the President hosts representatives from all parties who then suggest the prime minister they'd like (this usually follows some preliminary inter-party negotiations). In 2009, Kadima had the plurality, but Likud's head (Netanyahu) ended up forming the government, ironically enough with Labor (which came in fourth, after Kadima, Likud, and Israel Beitenu). I was going by news reports at the time. I referenced 2009 - Kadima got the first crack at it and couldn't put a coalition together. Main Paineframe posted:The parties which focus almost entirely on domestic issues and whose position on Palestine is a vague, handwavey "status quo but with less terrorism"? There's a meaningful difference between that and Likud and the even worse coalition partners. They're not ideal, but a big reason they're not ideal is the electorate being so polarized. Dismissing a significantly better option is insane tactically. Miftan posted:Yes but don't forget they promote the status quo and love racist dogwhistles, which I assume is why KJI likes them. If any of those parties get into power literally nothing will change for the Palestinians and considering how populist they can be it might even get worse. I don't support what Gabbay said on Jerusalem, but what you said is demonstrably false. We have the past thirty years to show there are gigantic policy differences based on what party is in power. There's a good chance that we would have had peace 20 years ago if Netanyahu doesn't win in 1996. captainblastum posted:This part strikes me as particularly wrong. Can you elaborate on your thoughts here? Can you explain what collective punishment is, why it's wrong (if you think that it is), and how individuals choosing to boycott, divest, or sanction Israel for the actions of its elected government constitutes collective punishment? BDS in its academic and cultural boycott seeks to in practice punish people who have nothing to do with Israeli policies. This isn't "Netanyahu ordered war crimes, let's try him in The Hague", whatever the merits are of that. This is let's target on the basis of nationality. That's immoral, and why the mere existence of BDS sucks up so much oxygen that it crowds out discussion on what's actually occurring beyond the Green Line, making actual peace that much further away. There will always be 1000000x more effort put into fighting BDS than anything else as long as it exists, making it the perfect foil for Likud. Then you add the fact that the actual BDS movement opposes the two state solution, opposes "normalization", encourages a full boycott until its maximalist, revanchist demands are met - it's hard to see BDS as anything other than an Orwellian command for endless, perpetual war.
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Jan 14, 2018 00:27
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Kim Jong Il posted:BDS in its academic and cultural boycott seeks to in practice punish people who have nothing to do with Israeli policies. This isn't "Netanyahu ordered war crimes, let's try him in The Hague", whatever the merits are of that. This is let's target on the basis of nationality. That's immoral, and why the mere existence of BDS sucks up so much oxygen that it crowds out discussion on what's actually occurring beyond the Green Line, making actual peace that much further away. lol no it's not? 
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Jan 14, 2018 00:42
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guys you can't protest apartheid south africa based on nationality, that's immoral!!! -a dumbass
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Jan 14, 2018 00:43
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botany posted:guys you can't protest apartheid south africa based on nationality, that's immoral!!! -a dumbass https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pLmG9QSlxQQ
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Jan 14, 2018 00:49
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Kim Jong Il posted:an Orwellian command for endless, perpetual war.
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Jan 14, 2018 00:59
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also lmao: Kim Jong Il posted:There's a good chance that we would have had peace 20 years ago if Netanyahu doesn't win in 1996.
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Jan 14, 2018 01:01
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Kim Jong Il posted:I was going by news reports at the time. No, they didn't. Parties comprising the majority of Knesset at the time recommended Netanyahu, and President Peres tasked him with forming a government, which he did.
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Jan 14, 2018 03:11
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Hasn't Bibi been on the verge of getting ousted for over a year now?
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Jan 14, 2018 03:15
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Kim Jong Il posted:BDS in its academic and cultural boycott seeks to in practice punish people who have nothing to do with Israeli policies. This isn't "Netanyahu ordered war crimes, let's try him in The Hague", whatever the merits are of that. This is let's target on the basis of nationality. That's immoral, and why the mere existence of BDS sucks up so much oxygen that it crowds out discussion on what's actually occurring beyond the Green Line, making actual peace that much further away. This case you're making against BDS would probably be more effective if you weren't held back by needing to avoid any discussion of the brutal collective punishment Israel routinely engages in against Palestinian populations. Israel's bulldozing people's homes and starving entire regions, and you're standing here trying to talk about the unforgivable moral outrage of cancelling a concert in Tel Aviv. The latter half of the quote could just as easily be applied to the IDF or to Likud as a whole - no peace is possible while Israeli voters are openly calling for ethnic cleansing, and the Israeli populace outright opposes the peace deals the international community claims to want. You're blaming Palestinians for "endless, perpetual war" when Bibi is the longest-serving PM in Israeli history?
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Jan 14, 2018 03:24
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Grouchio posted:Hasn't Bibi been on the verge of getting ousted for over a year now?
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Jan 14, 2018 04:21
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I invite everyone here to imagine this: how different to the present scenario would Palestinian total surrender look. Only a fool wouldn't realise we haven't been there for some time.
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Jan 14, 2018 06:09
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they could be bulldozing their own houses maybe that's what would really show their commitment to peace
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Jan 14, 2018 08:05
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"Sir, we heard that you were planning on expanding your settlement into our village. Could you point us to the nearest refugee camp? Wouldn't dream of troubling you. Ta!"
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Jan 14, 2018 08:12
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demanding a refugee camp, this is madness
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Jan 14, 2018 08:14
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Parties in Israel don't have a fixed ideology beyond what whoever is in charge decides. Their spectrum is just slightly smaller than the national one. Imagine Labour with Merav Michaeli in charge and one with Gabbay in charge. Those 2 parties are nothing alike.
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Jan 14, 2018 09:59
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Miftan posted:Parties in Israel don't have a fixed ideology beyond what whoever is in charge decides. Their spectrum is just slightly smaller than the national one. Imagine Labour with Merav Michaeli in charge and one with Gabbay in charge. Those 2 parties are nothing alike. Yeah, I mean Gabbay echoed Netanyahu's quip about leftists from 1997 that they forgot how to be Jewish just a few weeks ago. There's a reason why Meretz is making their primary process more open, they're planning on picking up the left flank of Labor in the next elections and want to get them on board. Edit: Speaking of Meretz, not seeing this in English yet, but Peace Now CEO Avi Bouskila is stepping down to run for its leadership. Edit2: Not sure why I thought this was Breaking the Silence, sorry about that. That's less interesting, honestly. 
Absurd Alhazred fucked around with this message at 18:54 on Jan 14, 2018 |
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Jan 14, 2018 10:15
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botany posted:lol no it's not? I think he's right, but it's an argument against collective punishment and well...
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Jan 15, 2018 03:58
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https://twitter.com/davidsheen/status/952529112702377985
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Jan 15, 2018 08:17
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I feel like African Jewish people in Israel should start wearing a star of David on their sleeve in protest.
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Jan 15, 2018 12:43
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Absurd Alhazred posted:No, they didn't. Parties comprising the majority of Knesset at the time recommended Netanyahu, and President Peres tasked him with forming a government, which he did. How does that dispute what I said at all? You literally just restated the exact same thing I did. Main Paineframe posted:This case you're making against BDS would probably be more effective if you weren't held back by needing to avoid any discussion of the brutal collective punishment Israel routinely engages in against Palestinian populations. Israel's bulldozing people's homes and starving entire regions, and you're standing here trying to talk about the unforgivable moral outrage of cancelling a concert in Tel Aviv. This isn't an argument against what I've said since I've condemned those practices. The question is why do people twist themselves in knots to condemn similar collective punishments. And case in point, you're making unfair overgeneralizations here. Israeli voters have "called for ethnic cleansing" the same way Palestinians have "called for ethnic cleansing", and pro-peace politicians spent a long time winning elections, and now they're barely losing. I'm not blaming Palestinians for anything - BDS really has little to do with them at all. I'm saying that supporting BDS is inherently anti-peace, given that it opposes the peace process, and opposes "normalization". The only "peace" they accept is what's truly outside of the international consensus. I've unambiguously condemned Netanyahu, and the root of my criticism against BDS is it tactically makes him far stronger.
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Jan 15, 2018 16:09
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For the second time in the past few months, and in line with his dissertation, Mahmoud Abbas unmasks as a deranged racist conspiracy theorist. This is exactly the kind of double speak that Netanyahu has gotten rightly ripped to shreds for. https://www.timesofisrael.com/rewriting-history-abbas-calls-israel-a-colonial-project-unrelated-to-judaismquote:The Palestinian leader suggested the Jews of Europe — six million of whom would be killed by the Nazis — chose to remain in their home countries during the Holocaust, rather than emigrate.
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Jan 15, 2018 16:15
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This is perfectly understandable when you realize the long-standing ethnic conflict between Israeli Jews and... Sudanese and Eritrean refugees?... going back to... uh.... HEY LOOK, ABBAS SAID SOMETHING lovely! Kim Jong Il posted:How does that dispute what I said at all? You literally just restated the exact same thing I did. Okay, let's go over this again. You said: Kim Jong Il posted:I was going by news reports at the time. I said: Absurd Alhazred posted:No, they didn't. Parties comprising the majority of Knesset at the time recommended Netanyahu, and President Peres tasked him with forming a government, which he did. In what way is this a restatement of what you said?
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Jan 15, 2018 18:07
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Kim Jong Il posted:I'm not blaming Palestinians for anything - BDS really has little to do with them at all. I'm saying that supporting BDS is inherently anti-peace, given that it opposes the peace process, and opposes "normalization". The only "peace" they accept is what's truly outside of the international consensus. I've unambiguously condemned Netanyahu, and the root of my criticism against BDS is it tactically makes him far stronger. You keep categorizing BDS in this light, but from what to can tell none of the goals line up with what you're saying. Actually, they seem to be pretty much exactly the opposite of how you've categorized them in this post and in the past. From https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boycott%2C_Divestment_and_Sanctions According to the call, the BDS campaign urges various forms of non-violent punitive measures against Israel until it complies with the precepts of international law. These measures should bring about : Ending its occupation and colonization of all Arab lands and dismantling the Wall; Recognizing the fundamental rights of the Arab-Palestinian citizens of Israel to full equality; and Respecting, protecting and promoting the rights of Palestinian refugees to return to their homes and properties as stipulated in UN Resolution 194.
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Jan 15, 2018 18:54
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This is an extremely hot take from former PM defeating Netanyahu, then, years later, Defense Minister under same Netanyahu, Ehud Barak (continuing his role from that under Olmert, in the Kadima-led government): https://twitter.com/barak_ehud/status/952972611079860226 Translation: quote:"Ya7rav beitak"? Antisemitic conspiracies? Abu-Mazen's speech is embarrassing and ludicrous. A major responsibility for continuing the conflict lies on his shouldiers. Our responsibility - to act. Not according to Palestinian whims, but for the Zionist interest: securing the safety of Israel and her future as a Jewish and democratic state.  Screenshot in case he deletes it, although I doubt he will: 
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Jan 15, 2018 20:01
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Kim Jong Il posted:And case in point, you're making unfair overgeneralizations here. Israeli voters have "called for ethnic cleansing" the same way Palestinians have "called for ethnic cleansing", and pro-peace politicians spent a long time winning elections, and now they're barely losing. If pro-peace politicians were winning elections for decades, then why isn't there peace? Why has Israel refused to make meaningful concessions under those numerous pro-peace politicians you say controlled the country for so long? The settlements grow faster now, sure, but they started under those so-called "pro-peace" politicians, who not only stood by and allowed them to grow, but actively extended state infrastructure and protections to those illegal communities. Seems like "peace" means something different to you than it does to me and everyone else.
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Jan 15, 2018 23:32
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Main Paineframe posted:Seems like "peace" means something different to you than it does to me and everyone else. Peace is freedom from threat (in this example, from an opponent). A concession to the opponent, particularly one which might weaken your position, would be sub-optimal unless: a) The opponent makes a credible threat that requires pacification (and can be trusted to be pacified by the concession). b) A compromise can be reached to mutual benefit. This is the same as a) but not zero sum. Israeli politicians don't believe Palestine is powerful enough to concede to, nor kindred or trustworthy enough to negotiate with. They can more reliably secure peace unilaterally. This is working.
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Jan 16, 2018 00:57
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How well is that border wall working?
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Jan 16, 2018 02:51
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Preen Dog posted:Israeli politicians don't believe Palestine is powerful enough to concede to, nor kindred or trustworthy enough to negotiate with. They can more reliably secure peace unilaterally. This is working. hahahahahahah
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Jan 16, 2018 02:53
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Preen Dog posted:Peace is freedom from threat (in this example, from an opponent). A concession to the opponent, particularly one which might weaken your position, would be sub-optimal unless: This is a strange perspective that seems to completely ignore whether one side is actually morally in the right or wrong.
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Jan 16, 2018 03:37
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Don't worry Groovelord, I'm sure -someone- will get it up, and make more skulls for your pile! You're very handsome. May I chew on you?Ytlaya posted:This is a strange perspective that seems to completely ignore whether one side is actually morally in the right or wrong. It does completely ignore that. Just like you do, where you are personally threatened by a frightening, or even just inconvenient, thing. You take the easiest way out. The welfare of your harasser is not important because they are malicious, after all, and unfairly imposing on you. They are the bad guy, for putting you in an uncomfortable position. A beggar, a robber, your employer, your employees. A family member. They will all claim that they are disenfranchised, cheated, discriminated against, and that they have claim on your goods, by some moral right. You could buy some muffins at the supermarket and some rear end in a top hat might accost you, claiming that he had "dibs" on them. Because he saw them first, touched them first. Put them in his basket and then took them out, and then later decided that he wanted them, but you had already purchased them. Isn't it nice that reality disregards this moral nonsense? It seems confusing. You would be correct if the "morality" was imposed by some external power. That's how most people mean it. A parent, a God or some other authority figure (state, judge etc) that will sanction those who transgress. Who would the arbiter be in this case, and would they care about this issue?
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Jan 16, 2018 04:12
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Ytlaya posted:This is a strange perspective that seems to completely ignore whether one side is actually morally in the right or wrong. Preen Dog is an idiot who tries to present a realpolitik perspective, except his practical measure of "securing peace" doesn't even support it
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Jan 16, 2018 04:14
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https://twitter.com/Reuters/status/953103308419411968 Why is this a Reuters story? Also: "Aviah Morag, 25, sunbathes on his rooftop which is equipped with a small pool, a shower and deck chairs." 
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Jan 16, 2018 04:20
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Nebalebadingdong posted:Preen Dog is an idiot who tries to present a realpolitik perspective, except his practical measure of "securing peace" doesn't even support it Violence is at an all time low. The third intifada has failed to materialize so far, even with the Trump Jerusalem thing. Palestinian GDP goes up at a rate in excess of neighboring countries. I'm just a heckler, but I don't see how Israel policy is endangering peace. As usual I hope you or the thread regulars can educate me, because I'm just a bird-dog.
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Jan 16, 2018 04:25
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Preen Dog posted:Violence is at an all time low. The third intifada has failed to materialize so far, even with the Trump Jerusalem thing. Palestinian GDP goes up at a rate in excess of neighboring countries. I'm just a heckler, but I don't see how Israel policy is endangering peace. As usual I hope you or the thread regulars can educate me, because I'm just a bird-dog. What use is rising wealth when nobody respects your property rights?
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Jan 16, 2018 04:33
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Preen Dog posted:Violence is at an all time low. The third intifada has failed to materialize so far, even with the Trump Jerusalem thing. Palestinian GDP goes up at a rate in excess of neighboring countries. I'm just a heckler, but I don't see how Israel policy is endangering peace. As usual I hope you or the thread regulars can educate me, because I'm just a bird-dog. its sort of like that fox news graphic about 99% of "poor" households having a refridgerator "israeli policies are creating peace! there's not even a third intifada!"
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Jan 16, 2018 04:47
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Nebalebadingdong posted:its sort of like that fox news graphic about 99% of "poor" households having a refridgerator I guess we'll see what happens if that PLO conference really leads to the end of security coordination. How much of the pacification of the West Bank relies on PA cooperation? We might soon find out!
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Jan 16, 2018 04:50
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