|
Xarn posted:We are basically standing up a reasonable development infra from scratch (we will be transitioning research code into prod To add on to the Atlassian stack info, they also have Bitbucket Pipelines for CI now. Or if you want a more traditional non-Docker-based model there's Bamboo but it was stupidly expensive last I checked (which was like 2 years ago, mind you).
|
#
?
Jan 15, 2018 19:38
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 12, 2024 20:41 |
|
|
The self-hosting is a pretty strong requirement. Our client has a mild case of paranoia and wants to host everything on their own hardware for security, so their own hardware they will get, even though I'd be majorly surprised if their own IT staff is actually competent security-wise. So far we are looking at GitHub for enterprise, Travis CI for enterprise or TeamCity (I am pushing for TeamCity) and codecov for enterprise. I plan to push for some dedicated code-review tool because Github PR comments kinda suck for detailed reviews.
|
|
#
?
Jan 15, 2018 20:51
|
|
|
Murrah posted:So 8 months in and my worldview is completely humbled/grounded as I wrestle with what I formerly would have written off as legacy tools including early versions of jQuery, Subversion for version control and a legitimately legacy PHP framework (Symfony 1.3). I am humbled as these things still serve real customers/I work on things responding to real customer requests. I have written some significant features with these tools and by now committed quite a few changes.. They're stable and they work and a lot of the time there isn't real business value in spending resources to upgrade them.
|
|
#
?
Jan 15, 2018 21:21
|
|
|
Xarn posted:We are basically standing up a reasonable development infra from scratch (we will be transitioning research code into prod Visual Studio Team Services does all of this except (d) and (e). (f) will be reported during builds but doesn't track trends over time; seconding SonarQube for that one.
|
|
#
?
Jan 15, 2018 21:41
|
|
|
Do you have issues with gitlab? Cause it does most of what you want and is pretty simple. I really dislike self hosted Jira(jvm tuning is a bitch with jira)/bitbucket(its a separate code base from hosted bitbucket, and doesn’t have feature parity for example). As for CI the best one right now is Jenkins(which sucks!) and of the alternatives that are self hosted Travis clones, gitlab ci is the best. GitHub enterprise doesn’t really get you anything over gitlab to be honest at this point, and is 20% more expensive while not having the other features that gitlab does.
|
|
#
?
Jan 15, 2018 22:22
|
|
|
Yeah GitLab does all of that really well and I love it
|
|
#
?
Jan 15, 2018 22:26
|
|
|
And if you’re hosting it yourself you can even accidentally drop your production db on your own!!
|
|
#
?
Jan 15, 2018 22:33
|
|
|
Capri Sun Tzu posted:I'm as gung ho for sweet new frameworks as the next guy but never idealize them, that's a rookie mistake. This old poo poo will be around forever.
|
|
#
?
Jan 15, 2018 22:39
|
|
|
Capri Sun Tzu posted:I'm as gung ho for sweet new frameworks as the next guy but never idealize them, that's a rookie mistake. This old poo poo will be around forever. Sure they've been made to work, but that was usually by a heroic effort by legends long gone, and we have learned something since then, and I'd rather not continue to repeat the mistakes of the past if it can be avoided.
|
|
#
?
Jan 15, 2018 23:08
|
|
|
Skandranon posted:Sure they've been made to work, but that was usually by a heroic effort by legends long gone, and we have learned something since then, and I'd rather not continue to repeat the mistakes of the past if it can be avoided.
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2018 01:21
|
|
|
How do you deal with dumb requirements? Like a spec that would take a tremendous amount of effort to implement, but the returns would be minimal.
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2018 01:27
|
|
|
Ither posted:How do you deal with dumb requirements? Like a spec that would take a tremendous amount of effort to implement, but the returns would be minimal. Take every requirement. First, have the non-engineers rank them in terms of how high the returns would be. Then, have the engineers rank them in terms of how much effort they would take. This should communicate how dumb the dumb requirements are in a relatively objective manner with few threats to anybody's ego, and will be a good starting point for further conversation.
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2018 01:31
|
|
|
Ither posted:How do you deal with dumb requirements? Like a spec that would take a tremendous amount of effort to implement, but the returns would be minimal. Something like: "This would take a month of concentrated work, but it would let us add one field to an export, which is of minimal value because X, Y, and Z." I mean, what sounds straightforward to a non-technical person might be a ton of effort. So you need to tell them that--for all they know, it's 20 minutes of work. If it's not, you have to communicate that in some way, especially if you have good reason to think the returns are minimal. Also remember, what seems like minimal returns for you might be world-changing for someone else. So be ready for that conversation--they just need to know what the level of effort is and what would get pushed back if you focused on that. Ghost of Reagan Past fucked around with this message at 01:34 on Jan 16, 2018 |
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2018 01:32
|
|
|
Ither posted:How do you deal with dumb requirements? Like a spec that would take a tremendous amount of effort to implement, but the returns would be minimal. One more suggestion: Make sure you actually understand what problem they're trying to solve. If you can offer a solution that solved the problem and costs 1/100th as much, you get to be a hero.
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2018 01:50
|
|
|
Gounads posted:One more suggestion: Make sure you actually understand what problem they're trying to solve. If you can offer a solution that solved the problem and costs 1/100th as much, you get to be a hero. Yep, this is why any developer/programmer/team should try to get a seat at the table discussing what’s actually required by a project. Relinquishing involvement in the specification means relinquishing most of your ability to control costs. Development gets to be the end of the pipeline which unfortunately means you get to bear every budget/cost concern everyone has about the project, if you can alleviate those concerns early, development becomes a way more relaxing job in my experiences.
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2018 02:36
|
|
|
And definitely remember: time spent working on one thing is time spent NOT working on something else.
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2018 02:57
|
|
|
Bongo Bill posted:Take every requirement. First, have the non-engineers rank them in terms of how high the returns would be. Then, have the engineers rank them in terms of how much effort they would take. This should communicate how dumb the dumb requirements are in a relatively objective manner with few threats to anybody's ego, and will be a good starting point for further conversation. We had a PM who loved to ask for whatever feature request popped into his head during stakeholder meetings and would file minimally-specced, "top priority" feature requests for them without a thought to the cost/benefit or any other priorities. A coworker of mine would always respond with "Of course!" to all requests. But if it was a particularly dumb one, he would then proceed to filibuster the feature request with questions for the PM about implementation details. Eg, Given that the relationship between A and B exists, and C is a child of B, does that mean that C is a grandchild of A, and needs to respond to A's events? If so, in the case of A being deleted, should that also delete C, or should this be more of an independent association? Once a feature ended up with nearly a page of clarifying questions - they were genuine questions, but presented in a way that would ping the PM about every five minutes for most of a day. At first I was confused because the questions were much lower level than usual, but I realized that he was basically going to either 1. force a complete implementation spec out of the PM or 2. make the PM realize what a boondoggle the whole thing was and shut it down. The coworker used this technique infrequently but effectively.
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2018 14:05
|
|
|
At one gig we had a manlet of a product manager like that - we would be in sprint planning, or retro, or daily stand, and suddenly he’d get an idea for something and completely derail the meeting. If you called him out on this not being the appropriate time, he would accuse you of being lazy and uncreative and send an email to your boss about your attitude. He was a massive kiss rear end - his lips were locked tightly to the rear end of our director of product, and she liked having a toady, so she would go to bat for him. I think he’s still there, despite being worse than worthless. I escaped by becoming lead on a new team in a remote office with a different and awesome PM (then leaving a year later after they fired that awesome PM because the director of product didn’t like him) but the remaining people on my old team basically had to threaten to quit rather than work for the manlet. The only person who liked being on his team was the designer because she was freelance and his stupid loving details during every meeting were almost doubling her billable hours.
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2018 15:24
|
|
|
Xarn posted:We are basically standing up a reasonable development infra from scratch (we will be transitioning research code into prod If people aren’t opinionated, I’m usually in favor of all-in-one solutions like Phabricator because very quickly you’ll actually start to see opinions form and then you can really figure out what people want. But for builds, I highly recommend against Jenkins unless you are an actual enterprise and can afford to have engineers spend 10% of their cycles collectively fiddling with overcoming its deficiencies for simple projects. Build tools have come a long way in 12 years and there’s much more simple-to-maintain options for self-hosted systems like GoCD, Concourse, OctopusDeploy, Drone, and a dozen more cloud-hosted ones. Don’t be fooled by the Blue Ocean demo for Jenkins, it’s still fundamentally Jenkins with all its horrible XML underneath. If you wind up forced to use Jenkins anyway, try to use Jenkins Job Builder to keep your jobs as YAML instead of trying to write pipeline definitions (scripted or declarative is of little note because most will devolve into script blocks for slightly interesting builds) and libraries. I’ve written at least 2000 lines of the crud and it never gets better, especially when you leave a company and have to re-learn a codebase just for.... building crap just to get started with work.
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2018 16:43
|
|
|
necrobobsledder posted:The CI / build / devops / SRE thread may serve you better https://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3695559 Yeah, that would've likely been a better choice. Anyway, ATM there is approx 0 chance of Jenkins 
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2018 18:39
|
|
|
FWIW drone isn’t great.
|
|
#
?
Jan 16, 2018 18:41
|
|
|
So yesterday’s meeting was silly. I was asked a series of questions and was told that I was being pissy the last month and disrespectful. A example they gave was “you explained things in a way you know I wouldn’t understand.” When I asked my boss why she didn’t ask for clarification if she didn’t understand she also said I was being disrespectful for asking that question. I was also given poo poo for not attending the annual Christmas party. I talked to a few friends and I am 99% certain I scored a job with h hire pay and less stress in less than a afternoon of contact searching. Hopefully by the end of next week I can put in my two weeks notice. They are going to be pisssseeeddd. I can’t wait. Edit* The entire meeting was a 4 on 1 pile on of them trying to poo poo on me for not having a smile on my face when I was working crazy long hours. They tried to bully me as well by insinuating they could blackball me in the area. 
FlapYoJacks fucked around with this message at 03:34 on Jan 17, 2018 |
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2018 03:30
|
|
|
ratbert90 posted:So yesterday’s meeting was silly. I was asked a series of questions and was told that I was being pissy the last month and disrespectful. A example they gave was “you explained things in a way you know I wouldn’t understand.” The way that sounded, after that meeting I don't think I would even give them 2 weeks.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2018 05:51
|
|
|
ratbert90 posted:Edit* The entire meeting was a 4 on 1 pile on of them trying to poo poo on me for not having a smile on my face ...not literally, right?
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2018 05:54
|
|
|
ratbert90 posted:They tried to bully me as well by insinuating they could blackball me in the area. Don't give any notice.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2018 08:05
|
|
|
Volmarias posted:Don't give any notice. I’m too much of a loyal stooge to be the type to just leave without notice, but for real, if someone threatened to sabotage my chances for future work I’d probably make an exception to go as soon as I legally/contractually can. gently caress em.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2018 11:36
|
|
|
Rocko Bonaparte posted:...not literally, right? What does your heart tell you? As for not giving them 2 weeks: If I don't, I don't get the months of vacation paid back (it's one of the few things in my contract.) When I do give two weeks, I will sit here and maybe pretend to do some documentation. Maybe.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2018 12:51
|
|
|
ratbert90 posted:As for not giving them 2 weeks: If I don't, I don't get the months of vacation paid back (it's one of the few things in my contract.)
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2018 14:56
|
|
|
ratbert90 posted:What does your heart tell you? Unless your state is really hosed up that’s not how that works. And if they do dick you around state labor laws often have 2-3x multipliers if you have to take it to DoL. Edit. Nvm if you live in Minnesota(iirc) then yeah it’s a shithole. Still put the two weeks in if you have months of vacation. Also move from such a lovely state. freeasinbeer fucked around with this message at 15:24 on Jan 17, 2018 |
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2018 15:20
|
|
|
Punkbob posted:Unless your state is really hosed up thats not how that works. And if they do dick you around state labor laws often have 2-3x multipliers if you have to take it to DoL. Michigan but yeah, also a shithole. Also, I want to, but I have to wait until my girls graduate from High School. 1.5 years left!
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2018 15:32
|
|
|
Punkbob posted:Minnesota(iirc) then yeah it’s a shithole lol what workers paradise do you live in friend?
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2018 16:08
|
|
|
Munkeymon posted:lol what workers paradise do you live in friend? East Coast. I’ve never worked at a place that didn’t pay vacation out for any reason. It’s why unlimited vacation exists as it’s a loophole.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2018 17:25
|
|
|
So fun story time: I interviewed a guy a few months back and he was great, but he wanted way way way too much for the company I am currently employed for (exactly what the market says he should be making.) In the interest of transparency, I emailed him personally after interviewing him (the recruiter wanted to keep him in the dark) and basically said: "My company is loving bonkers and doesn't pay well." We emailed back and forth, he thanked me for the information, and I started to build a relationship with him. I emailed him on Monday right after the incredibly obnoxious meeting saying "Hey, if you have any contacts or know of anybody who would want me, let me know!" Turns out he had taken another job and really likes the company, but they need another set of hands to help with the product. He immediately forwarded my resume to the HR department and I should hear back from them by the end of the week. If I get the job I would be paid what I am worth, work with actual coworkers, and the staff isn't filled with baby boomers (a huge plus imo.) So here's to hoping!
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2018 17:25
|
|
|
Punkbob posted:East Coast. I’ve never worked at a place that didn’t pay vacation out for any reason. It’s why unlimited vacation exists as it’s a loophole. Unlimited vacation is the same as no vacation policy, which amounts to “vacations are discouraged and we’ll judge you for taking them” in salaried positions and “no PTO” in hourly positions. Minimum vacation policies are just PTO. It’s a scam.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2018 17:27
|
|
|
Pollyanna posted:Unlimited vacation is the same as no vacation policy, which amounts to “vacations are discouraged and we’ll judge you for taking them” in salaried positions and “no PTO” in hourly positions. Minimum vacation policies are just PTO. I know? But I also live in a state where if I put in my two weeks right now they’d have to hand me my vacation money within a month.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2018 17:47
|
|
|
Punkbob posted:I know? But I also live in a state where if I put in my two weeks right now they’d have to hand me my vacation money within a month. Downsides include: being surrounded by Massholes, lots of snow in the winter But MA is probably pretty nice otherwise ratbert90 posted:So fun story time: It probably wouldn't occur to me to blink out 'run take me with you' in morse code during an interview if the candidate was good but that's a great idea
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2018 18:00
|
|
|
Munkeymon posted:Downsides include: being surrounded by Massholes, lots of snow in the winter Nah if I worked in Boston I’d make 50% more. Further down the coast.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2018 18:02
|
|
|
Just found a disabled test that would have detected a hotfix last month. It's been disabled for a year. By a contractor. Lol
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2018 18:20
|
|
|
Pollyanna posted:Unlimited vacation is the same as no vacation policy, which amounts to “vacations are discouraged and we’ll judge you for taking them” in salaried positions and “no PTO” in hourly positions. Minimum vacation policies are just PTO. I don't know if your posts are out of ignorance or malice but please just stop posting. How many companies have you been at with unlimited vacation time? How many people have you face to face sat down and talked to about their companies with unlimited vacation time? How many of those companies are more than 5 years old? And in those places was your adage that "vacations are discouraged and we'll judge you for taking them" true? I'll bet you any amount of money that they're not. You know why? Because companies with policies like that won't last 5 years. They'll burn out their workers, drop their velocity to zero, cause them to leave for non-shithole companies and then collapse under the tech-debt and lack of any understanding of the undocumented tribal knowledge. Unlimited vacation time is a tax dodge yes. But intrinsically it's not a scam nor a red flag. Places that are going to fail may use it, but places that are going to fail may also use Ruby on Rails that doesn't mean Ruby on Rails is a red flag. People need time off to be productive and sane. Sane employees stick around and are productive this poo poo was figured out a century ago. Go to places that have internalized it and don't waste your time with those who have not. But don't be discouraged and say because you pick lovely places to go everyplace in the world must be lovely. My current position is 20 days vacation + 17 holidays. Not great compared to EU nations but not bad either. I use my time, I make sure my team uses their time, our project plans take into account everyone using their full time. And given all that is why I'm at my current job for over 5 years and with the exception of a time my division was sold, my average time at a company has been over 5 years for the past 18 years. I choose non-lovely companies that aren't managed in a lovely fashion and are in for the long haul. I get it you choose lovely companies, but that's on you, not on the industry as a whole. So stop taking it out on these threads.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2018 18:30
|
|
|
|
| # ? May 12, 2024 20:41 |
|
|
Hughlander posted:I don't know if your posts are out of ignorance or malice but please just stop posting. Um.... It seems to be pretty widely viewed as the way pollyanna presented it. You have a weird axe to grind it seems.
|
|
#
?
Jan 17, 2018 18:34
|
|