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dexefiend posted:The T7 does make a big difference. Against a 190pt Predator with 11 wounds, Assault Hellblasters 'break even' in 1.5 turns of shooting. Against a Assault Cannon Razorback, it is 2.3 turns. It works out to about 1.33 wounds per dude. So I stole dexefiend's idea and added a column for "Points to Return Value" to the sheet. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1bnhKYhQpHBdENLeHJksqNICwCRlglS9KwcuUufr-IdI/edit?usp=sharing
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Jan 18, 2018 20:51
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It'll probably be best for something like Scions, who can deep strike alongside the terminator Custode with the Vexillia, and have a low save already. Even then it'd be better for something with a 5+, though I can't think of anything that. Heavy Weapons teams could also work.
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Jan 18, 2018 20:53
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MasterSlowPoke posted:It'll probably be best for something like Scions, who can deep strike alongside the terminator Custode with the Vexillia, and have a low save already. Even then it'd be better for something with a 5+, though I can't think of anything that. Heavy Weapons teams could also work. Might be fun for 30 Dark Angel Hellblasters.
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Jan 18, 2018 20:55
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Azrael's way better for that.
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Jan 18, 2018 20:57
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MasterSlowPoke posted:Azrael's way better for that. Can confirm.  Sergeant Janus is coming along nicely.
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Jan 18, 2018 21:00
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Gyro Zeppeli posted:No-scatter deepstrike went a massive way into fixing terminators too. Now they can reliably actually get where they can be useful. However, I miss the synergy of Ravenwing and Deathwing. They hardly interact at all in 8th and don't even have a combined stratagem to promote mixed lists. There is a maelstrom objective card though.  Deathwing terminators lack the teleport homer ability of vanilla terminators and I know Deathwatch are only able to do it by including a bike squad. Could have done the same thing pretty easily since the precedent is already established and planting teleport homers is kind of a Ravenwing thing. Or they could have had a stratagem to allow Deathwing units to deep strike within 6" of the enemy if within 6" of a biker unit, whatever. There were cool options and they didn't take them. 
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Jan 18, 2018 21:15
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Artum posted:Can confirm. Bit of a newb question, but what are those little tricorder this model and others are holding?
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Jan 18, 2018 21:27
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Blightlord Terminators are hilariously durable and dangerous. T5, Sv2+/4++, and Disgustingly Resilient makes them play like how I want all Terminators to. I fielded a unit against a Raven Guard shooting list, dropping them about nine inches away from his Devastators. He fired sixlascannons, his Predator autocannons, and a ton of boltguns at them and managed to inflict a whopping 2 Wounds (after I passed 5 of 6 DR rolls  ). He just kind of stared down at his entire army having unloaded on one unit to almost no effect and said "welp."They then proceeded to flub their charge, force his heavy weapons and vehicles to move, soaked another turn of shooting to heavier losses (losing two models), and then cut the Devastators and his Warlord Captain to pieces. TheBigAristotle posted:Bit of a newb question, but what are those little tricorder this model and others are holding? Nope, Artum is right. PierreTheMime fucked around with this message at 21:32 on Jan 18, 2018 |
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Jan 18, 2018 21:28
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TheBigAristotle posted:Bit of a newb question, but what are those little tricorder this model and others are holding? An auspex, pretty much a general sensor.
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Jan 18, 2018 21:30
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Artum posted:An auspex, pretty much a general sensor. They don't really have rules anymore, but they're a neat bit just to give a model a techy/Aliens motion tracker feel.
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Jan 18, 2018 21:41
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Ahaha, holy poo poo Khorne daemon princes wreck poo poo. I ran one as my HQ in a 1k game with wings, the talisman of burning blood and malefic talons and he went through a unit 5 terminators on his own in two turns. Definitely gonna keep him around as a "gently caress synergy, punch faces" option.
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Jan 18, 2018 21:44
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Gyro Zeppeli posted:Ahaha, holy poo poo Khorne daemon princes wreck poo poo. I ran one as my HQ in a 1k game with wings, the talisman of burning blood and malefic talons and he went through a unit 5 terminators on his own in two turns. Definitely gonna keep him around as a "gently caress synergy, punch faces" option. They're one of the only ways for Chaos Space Marines to get to reroll hits of 1, which allows you to punch faces synergistically. For Khorne armies where your Daemon Prince is probably nearby other units in the scrum, it's one of the best options.
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Jan 18, 2018 21:50
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daemon princes are beatsticks par excellence and they are almost always my goto for my warlord, especially since thousand sons really need the high strength punching they can bring other good options are leviathan dreads with the grav bombard and a claw/drill, as soulfucker found out when mine ate three carnifexes, old one eye, and his tyrant over three turns with a little psychic help from ahriman
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Jan 18, 2018 23:18
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Finding it hard to get my hands on a stock land raider these days, had there been a run on the kit, or is it just the usual GW restock delay?
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Jan 18, 2018 23:28
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Immanentized posted:Finding it hard to get my hands on a stock land raider these days, had there been a run on the kit, or is it just the usual GW restock delay? GW restock delay, plus I think they went web only. There should be some available on ebay out of the talons of the emperor box, but until I remembered to look for those I spent several months trying to get a few stock land raiders.
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Jan 18, 2018 23:42
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SRM posted:Yup! It also serves as a nice backdrop for everything without being physically intrusive. Mods, please change my name to "A Couple of Robot Suit Guys (who were also Tau)" Do you guys have any good pictures of the different types of Tempestus Scions? I'm having a bad google day.
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Jan 19, 2018 00:45
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40k Badcast
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Even for BoLS this is outstandingly stupid: http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2018/01/40k-op-ed-alternating-actions-would-kill-40k.html This is an op-ed that professes to make an argument for why alternating activations would "kill" 40k. The reason the author gives is "it wouldn't be 40k" without the current turn structure. This rests on the idea that players moving all their units on their turns is a core part of the Warhammer experience and could not be removed without inventing a new game. I get that their writers are churning out 250 word articles just to get clicks and comments but even by that standard this is just so bad.
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Jan 19, 2018 00:54
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Well, see, that's where you're wrong. Nothing is too stupid for BoLS. Someone here got it very right that the best thing GW has done for us with their new outreach is that we don't have to go to BoLS or Faeit ever again.
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Jan 19, 2018 01:01
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Whats 8thed balance like so far? It's interesting to see all the unit discussion, seeing as just 1-2 years ago the consensus on balance was basically "everything is broken, take whatever you think is cool because otherwise you'll only play 3 factions and 4 diff units each" ala the mighty Flyrant army. Obviously stuff without codexes yet will be behind, but have they managed to keep up with the quality they set with the Genestealer Cult & Thousand Sons codexes? Those were crazy good wrt mixing balance and flavor.
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Jan 19, 2018 01:05
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I like the idea of alternating activations, especially for it removing those games where you go 2nd and have to wait through 20 minutes of being alpha-struck before you get to retalliate. But my army is 15 units and I know my dumb rear end will activate something twice.
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Jan 19, 2018 01:14
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Gilgameshback posted:Even for BoLS this is outstandingly stupid: Lmaooooooo
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Jan 19, 2018 01:14
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Gilgameshback posted:Even for BoLS this is outstandingly stupid: My last experience was Bolt Action, which if you're not aware is a system where everyone throws a colored die into a bucket for every unit they have, and one at a time is picked at random to determine the activation order. It was cool. I wondered why 40k didn't do this or a more alternate-action thing with a shared turn, but figured I had no position to complain from after only playing a few games. I also thought that discussion was probably done to death and everyone just accepted that 40k was going to stay this way. Guess people are actually talking about it? I do think it's odd that the fight phase works sort of that way, but no other phase does, and there's a CP option to interrupt which no other phase has.
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Jan 19, 2018 01:14
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Artum posted:I like the idea of alternating activations, especially for it removing those games where you go 2nd and have to wait through 20 minutes of being alpha-struck before you get to retalliate. I've never seen somebody come up with a solution for doing alternating activation in 40k that doesn't sound clunky. Tokens seem like the most likely way to go about things but I think that would seem sort of weird. I love the concept because it would do a lot to mitgate the issues the game has with alpha strikes etc. at the moment, I just don't know that it really fits the scale at which most people play.
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Jan 19, 2018 01:28
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I mentioned it in the Keep Painting thread, but I ordered some Primaris Space Marines from eBay (one of the Intercessor squads from the KNF box). So that's basically my first brand new GW minis in general, and SM in particular, in almost a decade.
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Jan 19, 2018 01:30
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Pendent posted:I've never seen somebody come up with a solution for doing alternating activation in 40k that doesn't sound clunky. Tokens seem like the most likely way to go about things but I think that would seem sort of weird. 40k's unit actions would need to completely change to fit the new turn structure. It can't be done as a simple port to alternating activations. Well, it could, but it would be pretty sloppy. They also probably couldn't get away with stealing the Bolt Action system since it was dreamt up at least in part by Rick Priestley.
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Jan 19, 2018 01:40
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Neurolimal posted:Whats 8thed balance like so far? It's interesting to see all the unit discussion, seeing as just 1-2 years ago the consensus on balance was basically "everything is broken, take whatever you think is cool because otherwise you'll only play 3 factions and 4 diff units each" ala the mighty Flyrant army. The balance in 8th Edition has been really good, honestly. There are a few bits that are not optimal (like Ultramarines outshining the rest of the Space Marine bunch), but otherwise things have been good. I honestly can't think of a codex that is above-and-beyond others the way I could back in 6th/7th. Everything has a chance, which is weird. Also Flyrant armies are still insanely good. Considering I invested heavily enough in them in the "dire times" (2010-2017), I'm okay with that.
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Jan 19, 2018 01:56
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Pendent posted:I've never seen somebody come up with a solution for doing alternating activation in 40k that doesn't sound clunky. Tokens seem like the most likely way to go about things but I think that would seem sort of weird. It could be done, and it'd make the game better. Things would have to change, for sure.
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Jan 19, 2018 02:51
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What's wrong with the current turn system? Also, does Rogue Trader = 40K 1st Edition? I always Rogue Trader was a spin-off tabletop RPG
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Jan 19, 2018 02:56
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Farecoal posted:Also, does Rogue Trader = 40K 1st Edition? I always Rogue Trader was a spin-off tabletop RPG rogue trader was the 1st edition released in 87, and it was also an rpg released in 09
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Jan 19, 2018 03:09
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Farecoal posted:What's wrong with the current turn system? IGOUGO encourages alpha strikes, makes it so one player basically checks out for a half hour to an hour, and takes less strategic thinking
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Jan 19, 2018 03:12
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Rather than implement an entire alternating activation system, which I'm in favor for but needs a lot of additional work to make work (the assault phase is where you need to start suggesting non-elegant solutions like doing two rounds of combat), I'd suggest trying out adding two strategems to the game: Each costs 2 CP and one lets you move out of turn in the opponent's movement phase (at the cost of moving in the following turn) and the other lets you shoot out of turn in the opponent's shooting phase (at the cost of shooting during your following turn). Basically, treat them like the fight phase strategem only for movement/shooting. Those fit into the game's current framework and help seriously mitigate the strength of Alpha strikes, and also allow the current player to always get the first action on their turn.
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Jan 19, 2018 03:20
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As someone learning to play, losing initiative and getting alpha striked sucks, but at the same time it's a hard way to learn deployment lessons. The only thing you can do to mitigate that is deploying properly. One game I thought I covered my back, but I left a small gap 9" away in a corner where my opponent put down some Khorne Bersekers and annihilated half my army before I said let's re-rack and try again. Outside of deploying properly, I can't think of much you can do other than rely on pure luck. My ace in the hole is that Kronos strategem that forces my opponent to roll one die on a psychic test instead of two. It's not much, but combined with Shadow in the Warp and a deny it feels like a Counterspell.
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Jan 19, 2018 03:40
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TheChirurgeon posted:Rather than implement an entire alternating activation system, which I'm in favor for but needs a lot of additional work to make work (the assault phase is where you need to start suggesting non-elegant solutions like doing two rounds of combat), I'd suggest trying out adding two strategems to the game: Each costs 2 CP and one lets you move out of turn in the opponent's movement phase (at the cost of moving in the following turn) and the other lets you shoot out of turn in the opponent's shooting phase (at the cost of shooting during your following turn). Basically, treat them like the fight phase strategem only for movement/shooting. Those fit into the game's current framework and help seriously mitigate the strength of Alpha strikes, and also allow the current player to always get the first action on their turn. I like these, they probably need the same stipulation of being after an enemy unit has x otherwise they'd just wipe out a key unit before you got to move.
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Jan 19, 2018 03:51
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So alternating activation would be moving one unit at a time?
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Jan 19, 2018 04:14
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Artum posted:I like these, they probably need the same stipulation of being after an enemy unit has x otherwise they'd just wipe out a key unit before you got to move. Yeah, you couldn't activate them until the opponent had moved or shot with a single unit, respectively. Farecoal posted:So alternating activation would be moving one unit at a time? It would either be "I move a unit, you move a unit" until all movement is done, then "I shoot a unit, you shoot a unit, I shoot..." until all shooting is done, then repeat for Assaults (though if you wanted to do this, you'd have to have two back-to-back assault phases to account for how turns are structured, or it'd be "I pick one unit to move, shoot, and assault, then you pick one ot move, shoot, and assault, then me, then you, etc"
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Jan 19, 2018 04:20
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Handling assault/close combat is way easier than you guys are making it out to be in an alternating activation system. All you need to do is fight the close combat phase as it is now (with both sides involved rolling their CC attacks) any time either unit activates. The only time it gets even remotely complicated is when you have one unit from Army A in close combat with two (or more) units from Army B, and even then it's a pretty simple matter of only letting models in CC with an activated unit fight when that unit activates. Alternating activation in 40K is dead simple, we've done it occasionally since 4th Edition, and it has pretty much always made the game better. The Bolt Action system (with random draws) would be even better.
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Jan 19, 2018 04:53
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Ilor posted:Alternating activation in 40K is dead simple, we've done it occasionally since 4th Edition, and it has pretty much always made the game better. The Bolt Action system (with random draws) would be even better. How much did it slow things down? What size games were you playing? I think alternating detachment activations might be a good way to do it, but the detachments themselves would obviously need to be completely restructured depending on the kind of play you want to encourage. Alternating unit by unit sounds clunky as gently caress unless you’re playing with chess clocks—my opponents have more than enough analysis paralysis already. (Not you, Arven.)
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Jan 19, 2018 05:04
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I've seen people say AA would take longer and I can't really believe it. I've played numerous AA games and IGOUGO games and when you give someone an entire 'turn' to move and shoot their stuff it takes a long rear end time. There is no urgency. If we're each taking turns moving stuff it moves rapidly and there really isn't a problem.
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Jan 19, 2018 05:14
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so I have one flyrent with HVC, should I be boring and make the other I have the same? I don't really want the swarmlord at the moment, but at the same time I feel like a walkrent is missing out on a lot other then fitting in cases.
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Jan 19, 2018 05:34
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In the meantime, proper mission design and a terrain heavy board can help a lot. A local tourney has had great success with missions with progressive scoring with most of the scoring happening at the end of the battle round(and thus the second player's turn. First player gets the alpha strike, but the second player gets a chance to shoot units off objectives, run their units to cap points unmolested, etc... Second player has a whole world of opportunities and tactical gameplay opened up for them in exchange for the alpha. Those have been some of the most fun games I've played and it makes going first vs second into an actual choice. I should ask the organizer for a campaign packet I can share here, given how often I gush about his missions.
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Jan 19, 2018 06:41
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