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That HAS to be cribbed 40k art style.
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Jan 19, 2018 06:07
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Baron Porkface posted:That HAS to be cribbed 40k art style. Yea, seriously, put an aquallia on there and bam. She'd need a cyber eye though.
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Jan 19, 2018 06:19
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I suppose that instead of a centuries old family telescope she keeps a centuries old family sword.
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Jan 19, 2018 06:58
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I'm just waiting for there to be a rant about heresy in the next episode.
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Jan 19, 2018 07:04
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Do not suffer the xenos to live!
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Jan 19, 2018 07:10
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Fornax Disaster posted:I suppose that instead of a centuries old family telescope she keeps a centuries old family sword. Archer going boldly forth on humanity's first warp 5 vessel with the shotgun Zefram Cochrane shot all those Vulcans with on first contact!
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Jan 19, 2018 08:04
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As much as a lot of the Mirror Lorca theory makes sense (and I believe it's true), I feel like people have left the original Section 31 Lorca idea behind for no real good reason. To play some devil's advocate, the arguments for Section 31 Lorca are about as compelling as they are for Mirror Lorca: 1.) If we forgot about the Mirror Universe for a moment, Lorca's actions are much more in line with an "ends-justify-the-means" Section 31 type than with someone who is outright evil. His motivation is to win the war for the sake of the Federation, and his (intentional?) foray into the Mirror Universe could be seen as an extension of that. Maybe he was aware of the Mirror Universe via his experiments into using the spore drive as a means of interdimensional travel, and was keen on gathering intel about that universe for use back in our own (or to assess the level of threat to the Federation posed by the Terran Empire). This is supported by his decision to reconnoiter the Mirror Universe a bit before being too hasty to return home. 2.) If Lorca is a Section 31 agent, he's pretty obviously trying to recruit Michael Burnham. She's really an ideal candidate -- a human trained in Vulcan tradition, she could easily be manipulated to adopt an "ends justify the means" mentality in a way that she would deem logical and rational. She also, y'know, started a war, and her isolation as a prisoner (and Lorca then "saving" her from prison and taking on something of a mentor role for her) would make recruitment natural. And honestly, the Mirror Universe would serve as a decent training ground for Federation citizens to learn a bit more about humanity's more ruthless side, which is a trait Section 31 agents need. 3.) Lorca has displayed various traits that are questionable in a Star Trek captain: aggression, dispassion, rebellion, treachery, betrayal. But has he ever really come across as explicitly evil? Lorca is an rear end in a top hat, but I feel like he's not inherently evil, just highly misguided. Judging by his actions and (apparent) motivations alone, he seems to be much more of an opportunist and a harsh pragmatist than anything. 4.) Granted, the scars on his back could be a throwback to the portable agonizer devices from TOS, since they were also triangular. But they also could be something different. I can't find a screenshot on a quick GIS, but I am like 99% sure that the scars were symbolic: they depicted a triangle, followed by a dash. A three-sided shape, and a 1-sided shape. 31. It's pretty circumstantial and flimsy, but not really anymore so than "that's an agonizer scar!" 5.) The ship's registry is NCC-1031. People were all over this when the series was first premiering. Like I said, I still think the Mirror Lorca theory is the most likely one, despite the problems it has (how did Mirror Lorca get to the Prime Universe in the first place?). But the 31 idea probably deserves to be thought about too. Drone fucked around with this message at 08:41 on Jan 19, 2018 |
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Jan 19, 2018 08:37
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Mirror 31, who else are they gonna send on a black ops mission to the weird universe where nobody has a goatee
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Jan 19, 2018 08:41
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Drone posted:2.) If Lorca is a Section 31 agent, he's pretty obviously trying to recruit Michael Burnham. She's really an ideal candidate -- a human trained in Vulcan tradition, she could easily be manipulated to adopt an "ends justify the means" mentality in a way that she would deem logical and rational. She also, y'know, started a war, and her isolation as a prisoner (and Lorca then "saving" her from prison and taking on something of a mentor role for her) would make recruitment natural. And honestly, the Mirror Universe would serve as a decent training ground for Federation citizens to learn a bit more about humanity's more ruthless side, which is a trait Section 31 agents need. One of the things that bugs the hell out of me is that Michael didn't start the loving war even though everyone says she did. The klingons were laying in wait, cloaked, in federation space talking about how they're waiting to murder the gently caress out of starfleet. Michael's sole act of aggression was investigating an unknown object, again, in federation space. She was attacked and defended herself and that dumbass klingon slipped and stabbed himself with his own sword. She's as much a murderer as Quark murdered that drunk in the bar. Yes she mutinied and tried to shoot first, but was prevented from doing so. Klingons fired first, in federation space, after ignoring numerous attempts at communication. Then they executed a sneak attack and rammed the flagship under a flag of truce. Michael did nothing wrong.
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Jan 19, 2018 09:30
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Drone posted:5.) The ship's registry is NCC-1031. People were all over this when the series was first premiering. Didn't they say this is because they love halloween? Not that I'm discounting any of the rest, just that one. And yea all these reveals (as The Bloop said) fit so much in the idea of an anthology than in a normal serial series.
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Jan 19, 2018 10:39
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shovelbum posted:Mirror 31, who else are they gonna send on a black ops mission to the weird universe where nobody has a goatee Mirror 31 is an Underground Railroad dedicated to smuggling slaves out of the Terran empire and giving hugs.
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Jan 19, 2018 10:46
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Smythe posted:lol
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Jan 19, 2018 10:52
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Borgs walk only slghtly faster than zombies and daleks.
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Jan 19, 2018 11:11
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counterfeitsaint posted:Michael did nothing wrong.
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Jan 19, 2018 12:06
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Tei posted:Borgs walk only slghtly faster than zombies and daleks. You, know...since we're modernizing things... Running Borg.
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Jan 19, 2018 13:37
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I like the fact that the borg move slowly. It fits perfectly. They're never in a hurry, they're never worried, they're slow and methodical because they know that they'll adapt, conquer and assimilate and it doesn't matter how long it takes.
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Jan 19, 2018 13:47
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SpeakSlow posted:You, know...since we're modernizing things... Woah. Film it and call it "28 light years later" Tiggum posted:I like the fact that the borg move slowly. It fits perfectly. They're never in a hurry, they're never worried, they're slow and methodical because they know that they'll adapt, conquer and assimilate and it doesn't matter how long it takes. Kind of like korea war veterans.
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Jan 19, 2018 13:56
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Did anyone else think that looked like an Ur-Quan?
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Jan 19, 2018 14:28
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Borg update: all drones on gyro stabilized monowheels zooming around like Gizmoduck Mirror Borg are robots that add flesh parts but only if you agree to give them up for a fair price.
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Jan 19, 2018 14:37
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Taking the original idea of an anthology series, but mixing it with the dimension-hopping introduced in Discovery, how about a season done entirely in an animated Star Trek universe?
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Jan 19, 2018 15:05
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Parkingtigers posted:Some episode 12 photos (nothing spoilery) here: https://trekmovie.com/2018/01/18/check-out-10-new-photos-from-star-trek-discovery-episode-12-vaulting-ambition/ But from this angle she looks like Mr Tumnus:  It's like they've tried to make her tall and imposing (which she is in the other shot) but they've messed up and now her legs look tiny.
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Jan 19, 2018 15:25
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I must say that these images a frikin awesome. Can't wait to see next episode 
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Jan 19, 2018 15:30
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I would be surprised if Lorca is in 31. It makes more sense with the hints they have been dropping that he is from the MU and needed Burnham to get close to the Emperor for whatever reason. Admiral Cornwall didn’t really recognize who he was compared to what she remembered from when they were previously together. Another thing that occurs to me- in the scene where she sleeps with Lorca and at one point Lorca gets up and pins her down with the phaser to her head, that whole idea feels like the training of a Terran Imperial Captain who is used to preparing for someone to stab him in the back. It’s more of a reflex for him but otherwise, what Starfleet Officer would be like that? His hatred of Klingons could also be because he has fought them with the Resistance to the Empire previously. His trophy room also raises a lot of questions, but they haven’t gone back to that in ages.
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Jan 19, 2018 15:33
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I don't want Section 31 to be plotline for quite a few reasons. It would validate what DISCO is for haters of the show. Its use in Bashir's plotlines in DS9 were okay (with many reservations), and they were only used briefly in ENT not too poorly I guess. And then STID pretty much poisoned the well entirely; gently caress that movie. Like, I'm cool with the idea that Lorca is just a disturbed captain who's simply fascinated with the disturbing things. I don't even need him to be from the Mirror Universe. I don't even need him to be a "ends justify the means" guy. He's just a fascinating creep. Making him Section 31 would especially be the least interesting direction to take him.
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Jan 19, 2018 15:58
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Section 31 is utterly antithetical to Trek, and also poo poo. It's Ron Moore's bored rip-off of the X-Files and it needs to be forgotten.
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Jan 19, 2018 16:12
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Like, I'm glad they were the bad guys in DS9, but there was still a weird sympathy for their motives. Like, Sloan was portrayed deep down as a true believer of the Federation, a reluctant enemy of the heroes, and was hyper-competent. Like, with post-9/11 hindsight, I think Section 31 in another Star Trek story would at best be tolerable if the organization was portrayed as nothing but bad apples who don't care for the survival of the Federation, largely incompetent, and more concerned about personal gain and profit. And of course, they would have to be the unambiguous bad guy.
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Jan 19, 2018 16:26
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Echo Chamber posted:Like, with post-9/11 hindsight, I think Section 31 in another Star Trek story would at best be tolerable if the organization was portrayed as nothing but bad apples who don't care for the survival of the Federation, largely incompetent, and more concerned about personal gain and profit. And of course, they would have to be the unambiguous bad guy. So... like Into Darkness? (I guess his motives could still be spun as defending the Federation, but personal power probably had more to do with it.)
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Jan 19, 2018 16:27
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thexerox123 posted:So... like Into Darkness?
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Jan 19, 2018 16:30
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Lovely Joe Stalin posted:Section 31 is utterly antithetical to Trek, and also poo poo. It's Ron Moore's bored rip-off of the X-Files and it needs to be forgotten. I think it's perfectly in keeping with Trek to show that some people with good intentions follow a bad philosophy, because they could in principle be convinced to do otherwise. It also makes our heros genuinely virtuous rather than the standard template for future humanity where everyone is a philosopher king. In fact, it's a shame that Picard didn't get to chew scenery at some 31er and maybe get him to see that he was undermining the very thing he was trying to protect.
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Jan 19, 2018 16:34
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didn’t bashir try that with sloan dunno how much better picard would fare unless he like sang to him or something
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Jan 19, 2018 16:58
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The Bloop posted:I think it's perfectly in keeping with Trek to show that some people with good intentions follow a bad philosophy, because they could in principle be convinced to do otherwise. It also makes our heros genuinely virtuous rather than the standard template for future humanity where everyone is a philosopher king.
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Jan 19, 2018 17:56
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Cry Havoc posted:didn’t bashir try that with sloan Bashir is a fine upstanding citizen but he is no Picard on the dignified oration front
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Jan 19, 2018 18:02
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Section 31 isn't a bunch of misguided people though. It's a deliberately created institution of the Federation. Which is why i said it was antithetical, it's an idea which pisses on everything Roddenberry set out to create and which the fans profess to be the franchise's main strength. It's also just an excuse for lazy writers to get their early 2000s edgelord on.
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Jan 19, 2018 18:12
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*cues to "The Culture" special circumstances group*
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Jan 19, 2018 18:16
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Tei posted:*cues to "The Culture" special circumstances group* The Culture isn't a human society with ideals though, it's totally antithetical to the Federation. The Federation is a place where flawed people strive for higher ideals, the Culture is a place where people are the beloved pets of inscrutable God machines.
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Jan 19, 2018 18:28
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There's a difference between Banks putting Special Circumstances into the setting he created, and self-indulgent writers ham-fistedly putting Section 31 into a setting which has been established for decades and in which it doesn't fit. And it's not just that Banks was an infinitely better scifi writer than anyone who worked on DS9.
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Jan 19, 2018 18:28
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The federation is like the United States in that No, wait. Hear me out. There are good ideals there to live up to. It is a flawed institution created by imperfect beings and it can have struggles within itself and still be aspirational. In fact, if it has no struggles within itself it doesn't show us anything about human success, it's merely fantasy. The fact that a few people snuck in 31 at the founding (and remember it might have been Andorians or Tellerites or even Vulcans who slipped it in) doesn't invalidate the great achievement of the federation
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Jan 19, 2018 18:36
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Actually it does. Because the Federation is meant to represent this great hope, this ideal of what society could be. It's what the fans and the creators haven't shut the gently caress up about since the beginning. But then some schlubs thought it'd be cool and edgy to put a dark secret at the core of all that.
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Jan 19, 2018 18:41
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I got the impression that Section 31 wasn't ever sanctioned by the Federation. It was a rogue group of extremists that had spies and informants in the government. They only used an obscure line from the charter to justify their acts. They'd like to think they're official, but really aren't. Not that it really matters. Anyway, like I said, this show is better off just avoiding them entirely.
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Jan 19, 2018 18:47
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The DS9 characters live up to that hope and beat S31 though. They couldn't have ended the war if they hadn't.
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Jan 19, 2018 18:58
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