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Pener Kropoopkin posted:but that the point is to love anyone regardless of whether they're queer or cis hetero. https://twitter.com/probirdrights/status/368542088897372161?lang=en
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Jan 19, 2018 11:57
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also if the queer reading is valid then what doesquote:I agree that people are way overreading queerness into characters saying they love each other mean
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Jan 19, 2018 11:58
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Ocelot kisses Snake because he's "pretty good," duh. yeah like I get that they're good friends and also that Miko resents Miki from all that but I never felt like Miko's resentment was partly cover for a crush in the leadup or that Miki felt anything beyond platonic for her in the leadup so when Miko confessed I was like "awesome, lesbian icon tbh" and then when Miki answered back I was like "well yeah she's jesus and loves everyone of course they'd get together" but I never felt the chemistry there before that moment. Well, I won't pretend like my day one all night binge of the series was the most perceptive ever but I don't have any desire to rewatch it so it's what I'm stuck with.
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Jan 19, 2018 12:03
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yeah im not arguing the relationships in this show are super well done romantic stories to last the test of time or anything. i dont even really like the show
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Jan 19, 2018 12:05
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Endorph posted:also if the queer reading is valid then what does A few pages ago somebody said Miko is definitely gay or at least bi. If the reading of Miko being gay comes down to she and Miki saying they love each other then that's an overreading, because she never shows any kind of sexual interest in Miki. There's even people saying that everyone is either gay or bi, which doesn't work on the surface because Silene and Kaim's relationships are explicitly hetero. That doesn't mean you can't read queerness into certain characters because like I said, nobody comes down with a case of the Not Gays, but there is a point of hyperbole. DisDisDis posted:yeah like I get that they're good friends and also that Miko resents Miki from all that but I never felt like Miko's resentment was partly cover for a crush in the leadup or that Miki felt anything beyond platonic for her in the leadup so when Miko confessed I was like "awesome, lesbian icon tbh" and then when Miki answered back I was like "well yeah she's jesus and loves everyone of course they'd get together" but I never felt the chemistry there before that moment. I thought you meant a platonic friendship sort of love. There's practically zero sexual chemistry between them. Is there a lost in translation element I'm not getting? Does the Japanese word she uses for love have sexual connotations? Pener Kropoopkin fucked around with this message at 12:08 on Jan 19, 2018 |
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Jan 19, 2018 12:06
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Endorph posted:for a more serious post, there are people in real life who identify as neither male nor female, and they are usually part of gay and trans communities because, those communities are open to people like that. dating an gender person isnt a gay relationship but it sure isnt a straight one either, and an agender person being romantically attracted to a man, is something the Queers can relate to This but also I don't think satan being intersex means ryo isn't a man so using that for the angle that its not *really* a gay relationship is odd to me either way you interpret that
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Jan 19, 2018 12:09
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Jan 19, 2018 12:13
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DisDisDis posted:This but also I don't think satan being intersex means ryo isn't a man so using that for the angle that its not *really* a gay relationship is odd to me either way you interpret that They also don't say Satan is intersexed in the show, which imo is the better choice because Satan being intersexed is an easy excuse to read him as not really gay, or that it'd be not really gay if Akira ever reciprocated. The only real romantic pairing I can think of now was between Mayuta and Miko, which is another thing that heightens the tragedy of it all. Everyone's romantic interests are literally eviscerated, and with Koda even before the show begins. That Ryo ends up doing it himself at the end ties it all together, because ultimately he was calling the shots every step of the way even in spite of himself. Everything is ultimately Satan's fault, and I think whether or not you internalize the thesis of the story depends on whether or not you're willing at the end to forgive Satan for acting despite himself.
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Jan 19, 2018 12:19
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Yo this show is gay but only like, 30% and it's mostly dude on dude with a hermaphrodite twist at the end I like looking for lgbt themes but lesbians were not really there, unless you want to REALLY push it on Miko and Miki, which didn't feel at all like that moment. This is coming from someone who thought they over read lesbian undertones in Korra and Asami in season 3 of Avatar, only to be proven right later.
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Jan 19, 2018 12:22
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ryo is intersex
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Jan 19, 2018 12:24
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C-SPAN Caller posted:This is coming from someone who thought they over read lesbian undertones in Korra and Asami in season 3 of Avatar, only to be proven right later. Somebody recommended Flip Flappers a while ago, and that's a really good show about being gay with your magical girlfriend.
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Jan 19, 2018 12:27
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Satan's design is the exact same as the manga where he is explicitly intersex my point is just that Ryo is clearly a dude rear end dude whatever his angel physiology is. So the he's not really a man so it's not really gay take is dumb whatever uh, go nagai might have to say about it. Also idk if it's woke or not but I really like that Ryo/Satan is intersex
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Jan 19, 2018 12:29
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Somebody recommended Flip Flappers a while ago, and that's a really good show about being gay with your magical girlfriend. That show made me loving bored to death
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Jan 19, 2018 12:51
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My thoughts: He had average size boobies and a tiny winky so it wouldn't be gay.
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Jan 19, 2018 12:53
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Are feet wings and hair wings gay though?
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Jan 19, 2018 13:02
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Sephiroth_IRA posted:My thoughts: He had average size boobies and a tiny winky so it wouldn't be gay. That's near-orbital void of space and glacier shrinkage.
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Jan 19, 2018 13:08
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C-SPAN Caller posted:Are feet wings and hair wings gay though? Hair wings no See silene Feet wings gently caress yes
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Jan 19, 2018 13:35
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miki/miko is not a lesbian relationship for the ages or anything but it's hella weird to be dismissive of miko's sexuality. she has tons of resentment towards and weird sexual fantasies vaguely involving miki and all of that is fairly textbook for someone unable to come to terms with their same-sex attraction.
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Jan 19, 2018 13:38
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dogsicle posted:miki/miko is not a lesbian relationship for the ages or anything but it's hella weird to be dismissive of miko's sexuality. she has tons of resentment towards and weird sexual fantasies vaguely involving miki and all of that is fairly textbook for someone unable to come to terms with their same-sex attraction. like the masturbation scene in episode 2 isn't even about the dude, it's about her being Miki
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Jan 19, 2018 13:49
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dogsicle posted:miki/miko is not a lesbian relationship for the ages or anything but it's hella weird to be dismissive of miko's sexuality. she has tons of resentment towards and weird sexual fantasies vaguely involving miki and all of that is fairly textbook for someone unable to come to terms with their same-sex attraction. I dunno man people are more complex sometimes than just wanting to gently caress each other, it was more relatable to me as a childhood friend who got way better than you at something and resenting it more than wanting to gently caress them. It's def the weakest gay relation, with bull man being the most obvious, followed by Akira and Ryo. C-SPAN Caller fucked around with this message at 13:53 on Jan 19, 2018 |
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Jan 19, 2018 13:49
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i mean it's the weakest explicit revelation, if we wanna say the donkey bit and about half her resentment angle (because it's not all just being surpassed/replaced) aren't explicit. the messy and painful aspects of her attraction to miki were personally resonant to me though, and it was the first time i had seen them be expressed this way in a show. it does kinda bug me that this all leads to bland saint miki but whatever
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Jan 19, 2018 14:00
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Miko's fantasies relate to Miki because she's obsessed with living in her shadow, and about being relegated to a secondary status that only has value because of her relation to Miki. Miki and Akira are the only people who value Miko for who she is, but they've known each other since they were little kids so the significance of that loses its weight, like your own mom telling you that you're special. To the rest of the world Miko is just another member of her track team. She chases after the photographer because she's trying to show that she has a value independent of her relation to Miki. She lets Mayuta into her life seemingly at the drop of a hat because he starts off his rap about the things she does that he values, before opening himself up and admitting his own vulnerabilities and insecurities which are the exact same as hers. He's the only person she lets into her life from outside the track circle, because he's a kindred spirit in ways that nobody else would understand. None of this precludes Miko being bi, but there's no hint of any kind of sexual interest in Miki. Her struggle as a devilman is to overcome those heightened resentments in order to fully embrace her friend as she is, even if it means living the rest of her life in her shadow. What's the point of having a dream if it means hating the most important person in your life? IMO, Miko's transition from being more feminine than Miki to becoming hyper masculine as a devilman has more value as an agendered or transgendered reading. Miko makes donkey noises while masturbating because she desires a radical transformation, either that she could become a man or that she could be able to at least present as masculine - which is something that's practically impossible while she has a feminine bodytype. The transformation of being a devilman effectively liberates her from the natural confines of her own inborn body. There might even be a deeper warning there, because in Pinocchio the boys who are turned into donkeys only have value as draft animals. Even in a more masculine form the world would only value her for what she does, and not who she is as a person the same way Miki does. Pener Kropoopkin fucked around with this message at 14:25 on Jan 19, 2018 |
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Jan 19, 2018 14:08
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A heterosexual reading of Devilman is still the wildest thing to meAlan_Shore posted:I think it's more like Expect My Mom fucked around with this message at 15:06 on Jan 19, 2018 |
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Jan 19, 2018 15:00
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Alan_Shore posted:I think it's more like Try using they/their. Try it. You'll feel better.
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Jan 19, 2018 15:13
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Who wouldn't gently caress Satan tho, really
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Jan 19, 2018 15:17
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just let the ladies be gay god drat
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Jan 19, 2018 15:31
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dogsicle posted:just let the ladies be gay god drat Just letting them be gay would be missing the forest for the trees, because the queer reading goes deeper than sexuality. Becoming a devilman is a literal transhuman experience, which openly confronts the inherent value of humanity as a natural inborn trait. The heroes are heroes because they defy their very natures, even when they're heightened by demonic impulse. There's a trans dialectic coursing through the narrative that goes all the way down to The Devil Himself, who overcomes his nature as a being designed by God to be more perfectly beautiful and intelligent than any living thing on Earth, to realize the human experience. It's literally an anti-  narrative.
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Jan 19, 2018 15:50
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is the original also very gay?
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Jan 19, 2018 16:06
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Not really, you could call Ryo and Akira's relationship ambiguous but that's about it.
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Jan 19, 2018 16:08
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miko from crybaby was also not in the original manga. i mean there was a miko but they were completely different characters
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Jan 19, 2018 16:10
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Just letting them be gay would be missing the forest for the trees, because the queer reading goes deeper than sexuality. Becoming a devilman is a literal transhuman experience, which openly confronts the inherent value of humanity as a natural inborn trait. The heroes are heroes because they defy their very natures, even when they're heightened by demonic impulse. There's a trans dialectic coursing through the narrative that goes all the way down to The Devil Himself, who overcomes his nature as a being designed by God to be more perfectly beautiful and intelligent than any living thing on Earth, to realize the human experience. It's literally an anti- A good post. Also I'd say Miki and Mido are straight. It doesn't matter.
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Jan 19, 2018 16:14
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Maybe one day Japan won't suck as much about gay people so gay anime fans don't have to latch onto subtext and can just enjoy actual gays in their cartoons
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Jan 19, 2018 16:28
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jfc
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Jan 19, 2018 16:31
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wamu is gay and my new best friend
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Jan 19, 2018 16:32
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Well here it is folks the top three bisexuals in fiction 1. Vamp from MGS 2. The cat from sabrina the teenage witch 3. Nero Sorry but once again Miko just can’t compete with those ahead of her, a sad but fitting conclusion to her arc
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Jan 19, 2018 16:33
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salem is bi?
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Jan 19, 2018 16:36
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What if the talking cat from Sabrina is gay?
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Jan 19, 2018 16:37
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C-SPAN Caller posted:Maybe one day Japan won't suck as much about gay people so gay anime fans don't have to latch onto subtext and can just enjoy actual gays in their cartoons I dunno it feels like Japan is ahead of America in terms of depictions onscreen? What does everyone think?
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Jan 19, 2018 16:42
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The gay subtext in Devilman isn't even subtext. It's the text. The two characters who hug each other, feed each other and tell the other I Need You are gay
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Jan 19, 2018 16:44
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Alan_Shore posted:I dunno it feels like Japan is ahead of America in terms of depictions onscreen? What does everyone think? Ever since lgbt liberation sort of skyrocketed in America and Europe in the 00s, America and Europe are definitely in the lead now. If we are talking 90s, they probably were, but by very little. Also Devilman was funded by westerners for a worldwide audience. This isn't poo poo you'd see for a Japanese market. Especially the butt loving.
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Jan 19, 2018 16:45
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