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TooMuchAbstraction posted:The i3 does also look interesting, though it is of course considerably more expensive. Still worth checking out though. That said, the front seats have a reclining tab in the headrest, to help move them out of the way if youre wiggling to get in. Won't really address your diagonal woodbeam shuffle (but there is a *lot* of footage in the front seats). You will also need to remember there is a jog dial in the console between the front driver/passenger, as well as an armrest, so it's not entirely a clean shot from footwell to back of car there. (Also, don't try to let a passenger in if youre in the front and belted. Unless you like being choked.)
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Jan 18, 2018 06:12
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:Let's come at this from another angle. One of the big things I want to be able to do with my vehicles is transport lumber, without having to deal with a rack. Generally this means upwards of a half-dozen 8'-long boards in various thicknesses and widths. I can do this in my Civic with a little maneuvering (I have to open the front passenger-side door and the left rear door, and lower the front passenger seat). What electric cars would be able to replicate this feat? The Bollinger B1 is your ideal vehicle.
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Jan 18, 2018 06:33
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drgitlin posted:The Bollinger B1 is your ideal vehicle. This thing looks loving amazing. I want one.
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Jan 18, 2018 06:58
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:Let's come at this from another angle. One of the big things I want to be able to do with my vehicles is transport lumber, without having to deal with a rack. Generally this means upwards of a half-dozen 8'-long boards in various thicknesses and widths. I can do this in my Civic with a little maneuvering (I have to open the front passenger-side door and the left rear door, and lower the front passenger seat). What electric cars would be able to replicate this feat? If you can do it in your Civic, you can do it in most cars, can't you? A Tesla Model S can take my longest pair of cross country skis which are just under 6'9", without lowering the front seat. And since you don't shift all the time, most EVs can have something sticking out between the front seats. It does depend on how far you can lower the front seat, but I think many cars will be able to take that, just bring an 8' measure and test.
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Jan 18, 2018 09:31
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:I'm hoping to stick to plug-in hybrids or full electrics if possible (don't want to be burning gas for every short trip I make), so that does in the Rav4. Looks like you can fit 8' boards in a Volt, though, so there's that! Sounds like that guy used the same strategy I use in my Civic: lower the front seat down as far as possible, then run the boards from the front passenger footwell up to the top of the rear seats. They didn't make many but there was a RAV4 EV with a Tesla sourced battery pack. I'm guessing most are in California.
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Jan 18, 2018 09:53
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:I do woodworking as a hobby (so, miscellaneous hardwood boards and the occasional sheet of veneered plywood), and I need 2x4s for home improvement and woodshop furniture I'd guess every couple of months or so? I don't really want to deal with renting the Home Depot truck every time I want to go to the lumberyard. It'd be more economical to get a tiny electric econobox and rent the truck as needed, sure, but if I can find a larger vehicle that saves me from that need, that'd be nice. It also bears mentioning that I'm 6'5", and find a lot of the smaller cars to be kind of cramped. By putting the front passenger seat down and laying down the rear seats I can fit 2x4x8 in both a Bolt and a Volt. The volt might actually take 10 footers but I haven't tried that.
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Jan 18, 2018 15:07
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drgitlin posted:The Bollinger B1 is your ideal vehicle. To be honest, if it were made by an established company and cost a reasonable amount (estimates have the B1 in the $80k-100k range IIRC), then I'd be more interested. As it is, it looks to me like a vehicle you pay through the nose for and then because it's from a new company there'll be a lot of issues to sort out. Ola posted:If you can do it in your Civic, you can do it in most cars, can't you? A Tesla Model S can take my longest pair of cross country skis which are just under 6'9", without lowering the front seat. And since you don't shift all the time, most EVs can have something sticking out between the front seats. It does depend on how far you can lower the front seat, but I think many cars will be able to take that, just bring an 8' measure and test. It's entirely possible it's an easier task than I thought; I just don't have much experience with the kinds of cabins that electric vehicles get, and thus what's possible in them. I'm pretty sure it wouldn't be possible in a Prius, for example, but the Prius isn't necessarily representative. I'm sure the S could do it because it's a pretty big car, but it's also at the top end of the price range. I'd be happy with an S...I just probably wouldn't be happy paying for an S. ClassH posted:By putting the front passenger seat down and laying down the rear seats I can fit 2x4x8 in both a Bolt and a Volt. The volt might actually take 10 footers but I haven't tried that. Excellent, thank you!
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Jan 18, 2018 15:44
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:I'm imagining the sales team's faces when I show up to test drives with a dirty 2x4 in tow, asking to be allowed to shove that thing into the main cabin.
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Jan 18, 2018 16:07
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:I'm imagining the sales team's faces when I show up to test drives with a dirty 2x4 in tow, asking to be allowed to shove that thing into the main cabin. The Bolt is very similar to my 2009 Honda fit in cargo capacity. If you want I have some 2x2x8 I could stick in and take a picture if you need a visual. The Volt is slightly longer but not as tall, on both the back seats fold flat for a pretty large cargo area.
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Jan 18, 2018 16:56
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bawfuls posted:I've brought skis to a test drive to make sure they fit in certain seat fold down configurations. People do weird poo poo all the time. skis and a cello
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Jan 18, 2018 18:47
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ClassH posted:The Bolt is very similar to my 2009 Honda fit in cargo capacity. If you want I have some 2x2x8 I could stick in and take a picture if you need a visual. The Volt is slightly longer but not as tall, on both the back seats fold flat for a pretty large cargo area. If you want to do the test, I'd appreciate it, thanks!
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Jan 18, 2018 18:48
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I'm glad to see such high praise for the Volt itt. I've been eyeing it for years. Just need to switch to an apartment complex that has a place for me to plug in and I'm sold. Hopefully that happens before the tax credits run out :/
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Jan 18, 2018 19:19
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Trash Trick posted:I'm glad to see such high praise for the Volt itt. I've been eyeing it for years. Just need to switch to an apartment complex that has a place for me to plug in and I'm sold. Hopefully that happens before the tax credits run out :/ It’s a nice change from arguing with sperglords who have hissy fits because the 1st gen Volt would sometimes drive the wheels directly from the engine because it was more efficient. (I wish this was a joke but there’s a substrain of shitposters at Ars who just. Can’t. Let. That. Go. and they derail threads on the regular.)
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Jan 18, 2018 19:26
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Ola posted:If you can do it in your Civic, you can do it in most cars, can't you? I suspect the fear comes from cars that were electrified after the day one designs, like a Focus Electric or a 500e. A lot of those have batteries sucking up cargo space.
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Jan 18, 2018 19:39
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The cargo area in my CMax Energi is pathetic for a hatchback. When I need to transport something large I usually use my Fiat 500 Cabrio and stick it in the back seat.
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Jan 18, 2018 19:47
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drgitlin posted:It’s a nice change from arguing with sperglords who have hissy fits because the 1st gen Volt would sometimes drive the wheels directly from the engine because it was more efficient. They must have had a absolute poo poo fit with the Gen 2 seeing as it has more modes that do just that... http://gm-volt.com/2015/02/20/gen-2-volt-transmission-operating-modes-explained/ It has 2 planetary gearsets, vs. the 1st Gen's 1..
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Jan 18, 2018 22:44
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I just can’t see why it matters. Is it a good car? Yes. Does it use much less gas than an equivalent ICE car? Yes. Nerds, always letting the perfect be the enemy of the good.
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Jan 18, 2018 22:47
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I assume it has to do with wanting the drivetrain to be as simple as possible. "Electric motor that drives wheels, and an onboard generator to charge the battery" is simpler than "electric motor, also ICE engine both drive wheels".
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Jan 18, 2018 22:49
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I think a big part of it was nerds considering it to be a full EV, that just happens to lug a gas engine around. And fighting against anything that went against that..
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Jan 18, 2018 22:57
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:I assume it has to do with wanting the drivetrain to be as simple as possible. "Electric motor that drives wheels, and an onboard generator to charge the battery" is simpler than "electric motor, also ICE engine both drive wheels". It doesn't even complicate the drivetrain is the thing. It's all clutches and a planetary gear set. It's magic.
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Jan 19, 2018 01:10
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I don't get why the Volt being a good plugin hybrid is a problem I guess? My father in law absolutely loves his. He's retired and drives electric all around town and then when they make a trip use the gas. They don't need or want separate ICE for road trips and all electric for commuting. I desperately hope we get more good PHEV cars. I'm really excited about the Kia Niro PHEV, I think those sorts of vehicles will get a lot more people driving electric 75% of the time or whatever without worries.
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Jan 19, 2018 01:23
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TooMuchAbstraction posted:If you want to do the test, I'd appreciate it, thanks! Here are the pictures, kind of hard to tell from this angle how much room is in front of the 8' beam. Here is the Bolt. There is about 2-3 inches between the end of the beam and the dash. Also there is exactly 2 feet to the winshield, so you might be able to fit a 10 footer but it would be very close.  Here is the Volt. There is almost a foot in front of the beam before the dash starts. 
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Jan 19, 2018 02:23
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ClassH posted:Here are the pictures, kind of hard to tell from this angle how much room is in front of the 8' beam. This is awesome, thank you! I gather the Bolt is one of the smaller electrics out there? So if it can do this, then odds are good that most electrics can. Rescue Toaster posted:I don't get why the Volt being a good plugin hybrid is a problem I guess? Speaking as a relatively uneducated person on this topic, one of the attractions of electric cars is the reduced maintenance burden, because the vehicle is simpler. When you add an ICE to the vehicle, you correspondingly increase maintenance requirements. It's not clear to me how much of a difference there is between "ICE used like in a conventional car", "ICE used to charge the battery, plus delivers some power to the wheels if it makes sense to", and "ICE used only to charge the battery", but that last one certainly sounds simplest, which is I'd guess why there are people complaining when that's not the option taken.
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Jan 19, 2018 03:04
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Yeah, the maintenance is minimal. I like the fact that my car doesn't have any oil or gas smell. No sound beyond the tires. And while the range is pretty bad in winter, it heats fast. And that's important in this area with the urban sprawl through weeks of bitter cold. I wouldn't recommend it to someone that might challenge the range that they can recharge overnight. Public charging is not really offered here and unless it's completely free, it'd be a waste to subscribe to a handful of charger access.
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Jan 19, 2018 03:17
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I once hauled 10’ EMT conduit and in my gen 2 volt, that’s the day I learned to make drat sure the back door was latched tight. Every bump I went over a triple nanny chime was going off... the only thing that interrupted it was going over a bump mid chime, which caused a new chime to start.
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Jan 19, 2018 04:35
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Rescue Toaster posted:I don't get why the Volt being a good plugin hybrid is a problem I guess? My father in law absolutely loves his. He's retired and drives electric all around town and then when they make a trip use the gas. They don't need or want separate ICE for road trips and all electric for commuting. I think the issue is it wasn't really sold as a plug-in hybrid and I'm guessing a large number of them are never plugged in which means they are basically hybrids, it was sold as an electric car. And yes, under best circumstances as a plug-in it technically handles the average commute on electric power alone in practice the engine is going to be used very often. The of course you have the electric purists that anything with an engine isn't going to work and then people like me who really only bought an electric car because I hate how complicated, time consuming, dirty and expensive maintaining ICE cars are and holy poo poo you mean this car does not require service of any kind for TWO YEARS?!
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Jan 19, 2018 17:33
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Three Olives posted:I think the issue is it wasn't really sold as a plug-in hybrid and I'm guessing a large number of them are never plugged in which means they are basically hybrids, it was sold as an electric car. And yes, under best circumstances as a plug-in it technically handles the average commute on electric power alone in practice the engine is going to be used very often. Didn't GM also claim that the Volt would get 50mpg after the battery runs down, where it actually ended up with about 35?
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Jan 20, 2018 00:40
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Cockmaster posted:Didn't GM also claim that the Volt would get 50mpg after the battery runs down, where it actually ended up with about 35? If it did, GM did a good job scrubbing the internet of that claim
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Jan 20, 2018 01:09
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I had forgotten some of the early 'It's really an EV that happens to be able to recharge from gas!' hype. How much of that was GM vs others, I don't know. I certainly wasn't pushing a PHEV > EV claim or anything. I just think until charging infrastructure gets way, way more built out, PHEV will have a large role to play. For my commuter car I'm trying to avoid a hybrid or something with a range extender as well. But I'll still need a road trip car, and since I'm not planning on a Tesla, the infrastructure isn't there. It's not really on my routes even for a Tesla, actually.
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Jan 20, 2018 02:29
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Prius can fit ten foot long surfboards in it if you are alone. That’s the standard one. Not the little one or the bigger one. I have a 6’1” and a 6’2” behind the front passenger seat and a 6’10” along the side going into the front passenger seat area at the moment.
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Jan 20, 2018 02:52
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Rescue Toaster posted:I had forgotten some of the early 'It's really an EV that happens to be able to recharge from gas!' hype. How much of that was GM vs others, I don't know. I certainly wasn't pushing a PHEV > EV claim or anything. I just think until charging infrastructure gets way, way more built out, PHEV will have a large role to play. I mean it's a bit of a chicken and egg situation, until people NEED chargers which are expensive to install and maintain they won't exist in huge numbers. And from what i have seen the economics of PHEV on pay chargers with current prices make absolutely no sense. Then throw in the maintenance costs of an ICE, the physical complexity, cost, weight and volume requirements plus how cheap gas is and how efficient engines have gotten lately and I really don't see how PHEV make much if any sense economically unless you are a very small subset of users that can cover their entire commute by electric but need to take frequent extended trips besides it seems cool. Even something like the i3 REx would make my car go from easily handling my maximum commute to ehhhhh.... with the weight and reserve requirements even before you get to the cost and maintenance. I'm sure they work for a very narrow subset of users but I think for the most part PHEV are experiments in electric drivetrains and consumer behavior and sentiment that automakers are making consumers overpay for before they move to actual EVs.
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Jan 20, 2018 03:02
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Three Olives posted:I mean it's a bit of a chicken and egg situation, until people NEED chargers which are expensive to install and maintain they won't exist in huge numbers. And from what i have seen the economics of PHEV on pay chargers with current prices make absolutely no sense. For those of us outside of major metropolitan areas, EVs have been a complete non-option outside the Model X (which yeah, is not exactly the "economical" choice). Most EVs on the road wouldn't handle my daily commute, forget about running errands or doing anything else.
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Jan 20, 2018 04:10
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Unrelated note, I just picked up my i3 from the BMW dealership: They replaced my 12 volt battery because of a fault code they found, I hadn't even mentioned it, there was no alert. Under warranty. Flushed my brakes. Under warranty. Did the inspection. Under warranty. Total Cost: $0. This is a 2014 i3, I'm the second owner. Next Service:  gently caress yeah. And the brake fluid flush and vehicle check out of warranty? $99.
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Jan 20, 2018 04:42
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I think that Volt electric range can cover the commute of vast majority of peope and they can use all of it without any anxiety. It is not more expensive than full electric (more expensive the ICE though) and it hardly matters in the grand scheme of things if 10% of driving is with ICE. It would be ideal car for someone in my position living in a house in suburd 25 km from city center and 25 km from work. I don’t even think that that is a small subset of car buyers. I’d say quite the opposite. Unfortunately GM doesn’t sell 2gen Volt here. None of the other PHEVs have the range to properly cover the commute. Hyundai ioniq provides an intresting cost comparison as it comes with different drivetrains (tax free): Hybrid: 18 k€ PHEV: 25 k€ (EV range 20 miles) EV: 27 k€ (EV range 124 miles) DoLittle fucked around with this message at 08:55 on Jan 20, 2018 |
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Jan 20, 2018 08:42
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Three Olives posted:And the brake fluid flush and vehicle check out of warranty? $99. That's nice that they don't gouge but it's hardly a special deal. I'm surprised they don't suggest annual brake fluid bleed, but plenty of other cars getting by with longer intervals.
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Jan 20, 2018 09:02
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kimbo305 posted:That's nice that they don't gouge but it's hardly a special deal. I'm surprised they don't suggest annual brake fluid bleed, but plenty of other cars getting by with longer intervals. Maybe not for brake fluid and inspection alone, but in the bigger picture, there's no oil, oil filters, spark plugs, timing belt and clutch. Which all cost a lot of money to have professionally done over a regular car's lifetime.
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Jan 20, 2018 09:08
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Ola posted:Maybe not for brake fluid and inspection alone, but in the bigger picture, there's no oil, oil filters, spark plugs, timing belt and clutch. Which all cost a lot of money to have professionally done over a regular car's lifetime. Ah, good point, the apples to apples cost.
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Jan 20, 2018 09:23
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On the other hand, all non-engine components still require the same amount of maintenance. Anecdotal, but according to local taxi company Tesla S has required more maintenace and repair work than their ICE cars. Warranty (motor unit replacement) and non-warranty (rear subframe, power steering etc.).
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Jan 20, 2018 09:30
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Yeah Tesla out of warranty might be a bit expensive, more so the earliest ones. We have some nice consumer laws in Norway, so in practice we get 5 years warranty on all cars, the first ones are coming out of that now. The micro switches in the fancy door handles break all time, there has also been some problems with the wheel alignment going out of whack due to poor quality parts in the suspension - all of those have been covered over here as far as I know. But as with all anecdotes, there are plenty of examples to the contrary. I think the micro switches break more easily because kids pull the doors open and don't give the gee-wiz mechanism time to do its thing - obviously a fault with the design, not the kids. All in all, a complicated car designed with Silicon Valley hubris is not going to be super reliable, but the main idea of less maintenance on EVs vs ICE holds. I'm not sure how the i3 REx and Volts are configured but if they have timing chains and reasonable access, maintenance won't be that much more expensive.
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Jan 20, 2018 09:54
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I'd imagine the Volt would be more reliable then the i3rex mostly because the gas engine is a normal car i4 engine, whereas the i3rex uses a 650 parallel twin they took from a scooter. Not that scooter engines are bad, but they do need more maintenance typically.
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Jan 20, 2018 16:27
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