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Foolster41 posted:These are good questions. Thanks! This will maybe help me at least with Dog and Deer. I tend to focus on my central characters and let the rest radiate outwards from the main character's pov. I'm not sure if you're going for an ensemble cast or something more focused, because I'm not well-versed in creating the latter, but from a focused pov, you start with what your main character wants and figure out who they run into on their way to pursuing it. Fleshing those characters out, I usually save that for the second draft. Only then do I bother turning a stock character I threw in to give my main some conflict into a person with conflicting drives to make their interactions less cliche. Unrelated, I have a question for people comfortable enough to share their early drafts with a trusted writing buddy. There's a person I trade early drafts with for mutual encouragement. So how do you be encouraging when that person's latest story isn't grabbing you without them detecting your sense of meh? I don't want to be discouraging because that's like the total opposite point in doing this, but I'm such a hypercritical rear end it's hard to turn it off, put on a fake grin and say, "Oh yeah, it's great!" This is also a person who normally values my honesty and harsh crits, but is right now in a terribly fragile state. Stuporstar fucked around with this message at 21:14 on Jan 18, 2018 |
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Jan 18, 2018 21:12
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Ask them how blunt they want you to be?
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Jan 18, 2018 21:20
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sebmojo posted:Ask them how blunt they want you to be? They've directly asked me to be gentle this time around. I just... I don't know how. My crits somehow end up being brutal even when I think I'm being nice. Whenever I try to use the compliment sandwich the compliments are two thin slices of tasteless white bread--the kind that form ugly little pills when you roll a pinch between your fingers.
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Jan 18, 2018 21:31
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I'm having an interesting issue. So I'm also a comic book writer, or at least trying to be, and I'm in the middle of a project I'm hoping to get published later this year. The early scripting was done and I had nothing else to do so I took up prose for the first time in years and years last year to start Brigade as a novel, since at this stage it was just the art I was waiting on. Well now the art is in high gear and we've got plans finalized for how the final few issues are going to go, some big changes that are going to require some major rewrites. I've decided to basically just rewrite two of them from scratch due to it and some issues I had with not being happy with them. The problem is I'm having trouble getting back into the script writing mindset. Prose is super different and script writing demands very different things from you. I just kind of find it funny how it's stalling me to try and go back to something I've only taken a few months break from.
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Jan 18, 2018 21:34
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Stuporstar posted:Unrelated, I have a question for people comfortable enough to share their early drafts with a trusted writing buddy. There's a person I trade early drafts with for mutual encouragement. So how do you be encouraging when that person's latest story isn't grabbing you without them detecting your sense of meh? I don't want to be discouraging because that's like the total opposite point in doing this, but I'm such a hypercritical rear end it's hard to turn it off, put on a fake grin and say, "Oh yeah, it's great!" What about something along the lines of "this one isn't grabbing me as much as the other things you have shown me, but I think it has potential. Especially (whatever good thing you can find in it). How are you feeling about it?" If you've been doing this for a while, they probably already know it isn't their best work. In my writing group experience, I've found that sometimes talking about how I feel about what I've written, especially if I'm frustrated with it, results in 1) me getting a useful crit from myself, 2) catharsis that makes it easier to keep going (or realize it's time to work on something else). I've also realized that encouraging someone to keep writing doesn't need to be praising their work, but can a lot just be along the lines of "I'm looking forward to reading more from you." Based on what you have said, that seems to be a true sentiment, which you can express sincerely.
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Jan 18, 2018 22:47
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Stuporstar posted:They've directly asked me to be gentle this time around. I just... I don't know how. My crits somehow end up being brutal even when I think I'm being nice. Whenever I try to use the compliment sandwich the compliments are two thin slices of tasteless white bread--the kind that form ugly little pills when you roll a pinch between your fingers. In that case just say nice things. If that is a short list, that's not your fault. It's an unfair position you've been put in, imo.
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Jan 19, 2018 00:36
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Stuporstar posted:I tend to focus on my central characters and let the rest radiate outwards from the main character's pov. I'm not sure if you're going for an ensemble cast or something more focused, because I'm not well-versed in creating the latter, but from a focused pov, you start with what your main character wants and figure out who they run into on their way to pursuing it. Fleshing those characters out, I usually save that for the second draft. Only then do I bother turning a stock character I threw in to give my main some conflict into a person with conflicting drives to make their interactions less cliche. But I feel like sitting down and going "okay, so what are each of these kids like" without them having any direct connection to the MC individually (and only as a group) is putting the cart before the horse. I guess after I wrote the first draft I was thinking of a sort of "sandlot"-esque ensemble of different kids, and after I figured out their personalities I could find ways they more individually interact with the MC. E: I just remembered on the topic of character questions, one good source of questions I found was a questionnaire for kids in Juvenile prison, from a book called "born not raised" that I've been asking my characters that seems like pretty good questions. Foolster41 fucked around with this message at 06:40 on Feb 17, 2018 |
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Jan 19, 2018 01:57
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Foolster41 posted:Yeah, I think that's the problem. I feel like individually they're not really opposed or really intact in any interesting way with the MC, and feel undersecretary. (Except maybe for one female character and the embarressing encounter at the public bath, but I have a vague idea of her personality). But at the same time, I feel like I need these characters to exist, because Laila would have friends, and I wanted to have other kidst o play this team-based sports game. Also, they are there to ignore him during the game to give t he main conflict. You may be overthinking things. How much time is the MC (and story) hanging around these characters? It's ok to have background characters who aren't fully fleshed out, all depending on how many scenes they get. Impressions of them are going to be colored by the main character's thoughts about them anyway, so it's ok to make some one dimensional. Figure out which characters matter, focus on them, and don't worry about the rest. Unless it's an ensemble cast and you're spending the entire story with all of them, don't even bother giving them all names, because no one gives a poo poo. I mean hell, I sometimes give characters names like Hurf and Durf (and only to differentiate them as I write). When my MC is say collared by a couple security guards. I'm not worried about Hurf's deeper desires or if Durf has a wife to go home to. I might have them interact with each other, have them chat about dumb poo poo if the MC is stuck in an elevator with them overhearing their work banter, but that's about it. So if your character wants to play a team sport and is shut out by them, the most time off the field any of them might get is your MC overhearing their locker room banter. I usually draw from experience to make that kind of dialogue interesting, and that's half your job done right there. What I mean by that is I've had interesting conversations with people I was never close enough to care about—it was something to pass the time, at a bus stop, a dreadful party, with the plumber, etc. You may find these people all have interesting thoughts about life, but there's not enough time in a book (or your life) to get to know most of those people beyond those one or two interactions. This is what I mean by focusing on your MC and radiating out from there. If there's only one or two points of contact, they only need one or two dimensions. Anything more is you wasting time not actually writing your story. Dr. Kloctopussy posted:What about something along the lines of "this one isn't grabbing me as much as the other things you have shown me, but I think it has potential. Especially (whatever good thing you can find in it). How are you feeling about it?" They're likely aware it's not great, and it's such an early draft I'm gonna curb my urge to crit and do exactly this. Thanks. sebmojo posted:In that case just say nice things. If that is a short list, that's not your fault. It's not really unfair. This person has read a lot of my barely-baked drafts and been exhuberantly supportive, especially when I was coming back from being derailed from horrible life poo poo and now they're going through the same thing. I'm trying to reciprocate. Man, here's me realizing I came into the thread just to ask, "My friend's asked me to be nice, but I'm too much of a jerk. What do?" Stuporstar fucked around with this message at 04:01 on Jan 19, 2018 |
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Jan 19, 2018 03:57
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Stuporstar posted:Man, here's me realizing I came into the thread just to ask, "My friend's asked me to be nice, but I'm too much of a jerk. What do?" Except as I read it, that's not the case. You came into the thread to say "My friend's having a hard time, but is asking me to be disingenuous about their work to cheer them up." I can understand the difficulty in both supporting them and being honest. I went through a similar situation (tough life poo poo) where writing and making music was kind of the only source of self-care I could manage. A good friend really helped by being supportive of the endeavor, if not my specific creative output (which was all undeniably bad). It's a tough line to walk, but it's one of those times where he had to kind of set aside his artist glasses and put on his friend glasses. I wish I could offer better advice than that, but I was on the receiving end of it and not really in a mindset to be cognizant of how he was helping me.
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Jan 19, 2018 04:09
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Stuporstar said they trade drafts for encouragement, not crits. Crits might be a part of that sometimes (or nearly always), but it's hardly unfair to say "be gentle" when the point is encouragement, and it's not asking Stuporstar to be disingenuous in anyway either. It sounds a lot more like the friend saying "I know we usually do crits as part of this, but that's not what I need right now," which seems perfectly fine. There are ways to exchange writing that don't involve brutally honest critiques. edit: it's pretty silly to argue over what Stuporstar's friend means exactly in this specific situation, but It's important to note that being gentle doesn't have to mean being disingenuous, and it's perfectly legitimate to trade writing with people with expectations other than brutal feedback. Dr. Kloctopussy fucked around with this message at 04:22 on Jan 19, 2018 |
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Jan 19, 2018 04:16
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Dr. Kloctopussy posted:Stuporstar said they trade drafts for encouragement, not crits. Crits might be a part of that sometimes (or nearly always), but it's hardly unfair to say "be gentle" when the point is encouragement, and it's not asking Stuporstar to be disingenuous in anyway either. It sounds a lot more like the friend saying "I know we usually do crits as part of this, but that's not what I need right now," which seems perfectly fine. There are ways to exchange writing that don't involve brutally honest critiques. Yeah I missed the "mutual encouragement" part initially. Nevermind me!
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Jan 19, 2018 04:22
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Stuporstar posted:You may be overthinking things. How much time is the MC (and story) hanging around these characters? It's ok to have background characters who aren't fully fleshed out, all depending on how many scenes they get. Impressions of them are going to be colored by the main character's thoughts about them anyway, so it's ok to make some one dimensional. Figure out which characters matter, focus on them, and don't worry about the rest. Unless it's an ensemble cast and you're spending the entire story with all of them, don't even bother giving them all names, because no one gives a poo poo. That might be, and maybe I don't need them as fleshed out as I'm thinking I do. I was thinking since they are Laila's (the native kid)'s friend, they would interact through the course of the story (and not just in playijng sports, but possibly other activities, to again, fill in my large empty spots) which takes place over a couple years. Foolster41 fucked around with this message at 04:53 on Jan 20, 2018 |
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Jan 19, 2018 05:06
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I want to thank the people who read the first draft. I took that advice and really set to work fixing the second draft. Here is what I did.
It's still cliche written, but the hope is more to practice my writing skills and get better. I know this is asking a lot, but, if anyone wants to read it and tell me if the second draft improved and what I can work on, the story can be found here. Any feedback is greatly appreciated. Covok fucked around with this message at 05:14 on Jan 19, 2018 |
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Jan 19, 2018 05:11
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On a quick skim that's def better, though still extremely purple. I'll have a read later today and see how the whole thing holds up.
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Jan 19, 2018 20:42
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sebmojo posted:On a quick skim that's def better, though still extremely purple. I'll have a read later today and see how the whole thing holds up. I'm sorry, what do you mean by "purple?" I'm unfamiliar with the term. Thank you for taking a look, by the way.
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Jan 19, 2018 22:52
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Covok posted:I'm sorry, what do you mean by "purple?" I'm unfamiliar with the term. Thank you for taking a look, by the way. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purple_prose
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Jan 19, 2018 22:57
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MockingQuantum posted:I also found the OPs in general to be more useful (and concise) than a lot of published books on writing. Hungry posted:I enjoy your long posts and have read the OP multiple times, it's useful and concise and helps whenever I'm flagging with my writing. I'm literally crying right now Seriously though, even more than I love it when anyone ever reads the OPs (WHICH IS A LOT), I super love it when people pipe up about what is missing in the OPs. Mostly so far this has been ~real lit~ people (<3 you guys) correctly pointing out that there's not really anything about prose style. Unfortunately they keep prefacing that by mentioning genre v literature, which distracts (entertains) us for like 2 pages and we never actually talk about prose style. I actually have a draft of a section on prose style, and will post it eventually, but uhhhhhhhhh... seriously read more, write more, close thread has never applied more than for that topic. D: ..... "prose style"  ugh I'm gonna have to edit this post to actually talk about Prose Style now, i hate you and i hate myself.
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Jan 20, 2018 11:29
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Dr. Kloctopussy posted:I'm literally crying right now 
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Jan 20, 2018 11:31
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Covok posted:I want to thank the people who read the first draft. I took that advice and really set to work fixing the second draft. Dr. Kloctopussy posted:but if you give it a solid second editing pass, I'll take a look at it THANK YOU FOR ACTUALLY DOING THIS. A thing which I should not actually have to be thankful for, dear god. I am reading it now. Not sure if this post is the best way to give feedback, but until I figure out a better way, it will be here..... (honestly, would probably be best if you started a thread for this, i think) FIRST: ugh you start with weird weather stuff.
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Jan 20, 2018 11:31
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Dr. Kloctopussy posted:Mostly so far this has been ~real lit~ people (<3 you guys) It took my brain a minute to figure out how you meant this 
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Jan 20, 2018 16:32
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Dr. Kloctopussy posted:THANK YOU FOR ACTUALLY DOING THIS. A thing which I should not actually have to be thankful for, dear god. I am reading it now. Not sure if this post is the best way to give feedback, but until I figure out a better way, it will be here..... (honestly, would probably be best if you started a thread for this, i think) I'm sorry. It seems I should have read the OP first. Looks like this should actually be in the fiction Farm because it exceeds the length of this threads threshold for feedback. My apologies. That said, what's wrong with starting with weather stuff? I started with it with the intent of establishing the scene, which was in the middle of a storm. I'm new to writing, and I'm not questioning your judgment, I'm just curious as to why that's a problem so that I can learn from it and incorporate that into my future works.
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Jan 20, 2018 16:50
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Covok posted:I'm sorry. It seems I should have read the OP first. Looks like this should actually be in the fiction Farm because it exceeds the length of this threads threshold for feedback. My apologies. It's considered to be tired/cliche, as the current trend is to drop people into the middle of a scene and let them figure it out. Some great books still open with the weather, but the concept is so overdone that most editors/publishers/agents will roll their eyes when they see it and put the book down. A few other openings you should avoid, for fear of the same trap: - someone waking up - someone looking in the mirror - someone listening to a lecture on the history of their world (bonus points if they wake up to this) - someone vomiting/making GBS threads/pissing/jerking off (apparently this is common enough in submissions that it needs to be said?) - someone moving into a new house - someone overlooking a battlefield - someone in an intense fight but oh wait it's just training - it was all a dream Like all rules, these can be (and have been) broken successfully, but you're doing yourself and your story a disservice by knowingly using them in an attempt to prove you're above convention. You're better off trying to figure out an opening that can only be in your story, and can't be dropped in any place else.
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Jan 20, 2018 17:17
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while setting the scene is fine, your first sentence in your story is the most important sentence in your entire story, esp in shorter stories. it should drive the reader to want to read more. starting with the weather is boring. it doesn't clue us in to what the character wants, who the character is, what the plot is going to be, or any other interesting elements of a story. imagine you're telling a story to one of your friends. youre not going to start the story by saying "so, yesterday, it was really cold." youll probably say something like "so this crazy thing happened last night where i almost died" (note: dont ever start a real fiction story like that tbh). notice how u hook the reader in, making them interested to know, hey, why did you almost die last night? a first sentence''s job is to make the reader want to read the story, and it does this by being interesting and creating some level of intrigue. the weather and setting is important, but it isnt very interesting. if you could make the weather interesting than yeah, cool, use that as your first line. but for the most part it will be dull.
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Jan 20, 2018 17:48
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Thanks for that clarification, Naerasa’s post, while useful, was kicking up a bit of anxiety over the notion that everything has already been written so why bother. I have a lot to learn but still forging ahead writing notes, etc. towards eventually jumping in whole hog. Definitely grateful for all the info here.
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Jan 20, 2018 17:58
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REMEMBER SPONGE MONKEYS posted:Thanks for that clarification, Naerasa’s post, while useful, was kicking up a bit of anxiety over the notion that everything has already been written so why bother. I have a lot to learn but still forging ahead writing notes, etc. towards eventually jumping in whole hog. While it's true that everything's already been written, the thing to pay attention to isn't so much what's been done as what's currently out of fashion. I have zero doubt that weather and schools and waking up and dreams will come back in some form, at some point, because people crave novelty and the current styles can only last so long before people get nostalgic for what they haven't seen in a while. At this point, the best thing you can do for yourself is read a lot of opening pages of a lot of different kinds of books that are currently on the market. See what people are out there doing today and decide for yourself what you want to emulate/what you want to avoid. You're right in that everything's been done before, but you don't need to be anxious about it. You just need to figure out how to make what's been done before unique to your story.
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Jan 20, 2018 22:09
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i think weather openings became popular because of establishing shots in movies/tv and people couldnt figure out how to capture the feeling of how an establishing shot works so they just went macro -> micro in terms of setting lol thats my dumb and bad theory that no one asked for, thanks.
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Jan 20, 2018 22:33
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anime was right posted:i think weather openings became popular because of establishing shots in movies/tv and people couldnt figure out how to capture the feeling of how an establishing shot works so they just went macro -> micro in terms of setting lol You are correct insofar as that is why I used it.
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Jan 20, 2018 22:34
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Nae has done nothing but give me great advice, so I'd lend them an ear. Nae has really helped me hone in on things
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Jan 20, 2018 22:36
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Naerasa posted:- someone vomiting/making GBS threads/pissing/jerking off (apparently this is common enough in submissions that it needs to be said?) Does the protagonist giving a blowjob count? I'm kidding, when I did that I already knew it was a bad idea.
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Jan 20, 2018 22:38
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Stuporstar posted:Does the protagonist giving a blowjob count? Only if they choke on it and puke. anime was right posted:i think weather openings became popular because of establishing shots in movies/tv and people couldnt figure out how to capture the feeling of how an establishing shot works so they just went macro -> micro in terms of setting lol I think it's a fair theory. It's impossible to avoid cinematic influences because they're such a large part of the media we consume. Plus, I can't really rip on it when I write in a genre that's 50% dudes just writing out their DnD campaigns. FormerPoster fucked around with this message at 22:43 on Jan 20, 2018 |
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Jan 20, 2018 22:41
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Naerasa posted:- someone waking up I once wrote an opening in which the protagonist woke up and vomited into her own lap. Let's see how many of those others we can combine.
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Jan 20, 2018 22:55
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Hungry posted:I once wrote an opening in which the protagonist woke up and vomited into her own lap. Let's see how many of those others we can combine. I wrote a book that opens with the protagonist shaving his face in the mirror because he wants to look his best when he murders the guy he's in love with. The book's being published in August, so turns out the mirror trick isn't always so terrible. My editor might kill the scene though, so TBC on that one.
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Jan 20, 2018 22:59
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Naerasa posted:Only if they choke on it and puke. Lol, he did actually. Not the best idea if trying to establish some reader sympathy. I ended up scrapping the scene. I don't know why, but I have this impulse to follow through on what I know are bad ideas, just to get them out of my system or something. Stuporstar fucked around with this message at 23:10 on Jan 20, 2018 |
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Jan 20, 2018 23:04
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Stuporstar posted:Lol, he did actually. Not the best idea if trying to establish some reader sympathy. Eh, we've all been there at some point...
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Jan 20, 2018 23:09
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Naerasa posted:I wrote a book that opens with the protagonist shaving his face in the mirror because he wants to look his best when he murders the guy he's in love with. You're getting that published after all? Unless this is a different one from what I remember you talking about
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Jan 20, 2018 23:25
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Burkion posted:You're getting that published after all? Unless this is a different one from what I remember you talking about I had my fourth manuscript picked up by a small press and I'm currently shopping my fifth around to agents, though it's become clear to me that I've got to strip out one POV and replace it with a different one. Not sure which of those I talked to you about, though I know I haven't mentioned much of what I've been working on since I posted about my third manuscript and got laughed out of the drat thread (deservedly).
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Jan 20, 2018 23:27
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Naerasa posted:I had my fourth manuscript picked up by a small press and I'm currently shopping my fifth around to agents, though it's become clear to me that I've got to strip out one POV and replace it with a different one. Not sure which of those I talked to you about, though I know I haven't mentioned much of what I've been working on since I posted about my third manuscript and got laughed out of the drat thread (deservedly). No we love you here!!!!
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Jan 20, 2018 23:31
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Dr. Kloctopussy posted:No we love you here!!!! Aww, thanks. I did deserve it at the time, though, since I was stuck in the denial-spiral of replying to good feedback with 'No but don't you see, my bad ideas are different than other people's bad ideas because-" I shouldn't have been so resistant to good advice, but I've always been more of a compliment sandwich kind of person and less of a go-gently caress-yourself sandwich type. I know some people genuinely appreciate tough love, though, so it's something I've had to learn to grit my teeth and endure.
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Jan 20, 2018 23:35
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Dr. Kloctopussy posted:Eh, we've all been there at some point... I too find that my readers are less sympathetic after I puke on their dick.
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Jan 20, 2018 23:37
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My mermaid story has a girl waking up, though it's more she's gaining consciousness after a shipwreck. I'm not sure how to not start with waking up and have it in media res.
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Jan 21, 2018 00:02
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