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Petr posted:People don't fundamentally change very often. She's probably just being more open about her real feelings now that she feels secure enough to. Yeah, I agree. I'm not saying she changed. I'm saying she never really believed what she was saying (which I suspect is true of like 90% of Internet Political Superstars).
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Jan 21, 2018 23:03
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Lightning Knight posted:I can’t currently think of a good justification for this picture to exist and for what it implies. I think that she has a similar problem to Contrapoints' in terms of being the sort of person who has a hard time not being friendly on an in-person basis, even if the people in question hold detestable politics.
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Jan 21, 2018 23:03
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Ytlaya posted:I think that she has a similar problem to Contrapoints' in terms of being the sort of person who has a hard time not being friendly on an in-person basis, even if the people in question hold detestable politics. Doing a loving escape the room thing is more than just being friendly.
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Jan 21, 2018 23:04
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Pollyanna posted:Doing a loving escape the room thing is more than just being friendly. Really the questionable thing here is, what kind of person enjoys escape rooms?
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Jan 21, 2018 23:05
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Ytlaya posted:I think that she has a similar problem to Contrapoints' in terms of being the sort of person who has a hard time not being friendly on an in-person basis, even if the people in question hold detestable politics. I mean, like I said, I think the most likely explanation is that Fairbanks and her cohort really do like Chelsea and admire her, albeit for all the wrong reasons, and they came to her as gushing fans and Chelsea didn't consider the problem with associating with shitheads like them because she's not a long-time politician and people aren't used to 24/7 online scrutiny from the public.
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Jan 21, 2018 23:06
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One can criticize a politician for horrible optics (hanging out with Nazis) without that also meaning the politician needs to leave politics. That would be a bad photo for any Democratic politician running for office regardless of any harmless justification (like a sitcom style group mixup).
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Jan 21, 2018 23:06
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Trabisnikof posted:One can criticize a politician for horrible optics (hanging out with Nazis) without that also meaning the politician needs to leave politics. Now I want to see Jamie Clayton in a modern take on Curb Your Enthusiasm.
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Jan 21, 2018 23:10
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cis autodrag posted:Really the questionable thing here is, what kind of person enjoys escape rooms? The least surprising thing is that Alt-Right Twitter is super into them.
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Jan 21, 2018 23:10
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The whole internet loves Chelsea Manning, a transwoman running for senate! *five seconds later* We regret to inform you that Chelsea Manning has been accepted by the alt-right
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Jan 21, 2018 23:11
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Maybe it was a really hard escape room, I can't think of a better ringer to bring in than someone who's been in a military prison
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Jan 21, 2018 23:11
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I suspect (with zero evidence) that they see Manning as red-pillable and are running their "killing the minority with love" strategy on her. I don't know if there's actually a term for that, but I've seen it happen enough times that there must be a guide about it on 8chan or something. How successful they've been at it is impossible to know right now.
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Jan 21, 2018 23:12
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Petr posted:I suspect (with zero evidence) that they see Manning as red-pillable and are running their "killing the minority with love" strategy on her. I don't know if there's actually a term for that, but I've seen it happen enough times that there must be a guide about it on 8chan or something. How successful they've been at it is impossible to know right now. Why assume they have a plan when we've literally seen Mike Cernivich melt down crying when someone politely disagrees with him? These guys are babies who can't handle confrontation and it seems more likely that she approached them for *something* and then they immediately broke down and tried to make nice with her because they are scared of their own shadow.
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Jan 21, 2018 23:15
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Pollyanna posted:Doing a loving escape the room thing is more than just being friendly. I'm not really seeing the difference, and what I said wasn't a defense of her actions. Like, Contrapoints also did the "act friendly and take pictures with alt-right shitheads" thing, and I think it's because some people have a very hard time not being friendly or not reciprocating friendliness during in-person interactions. This isn't an excuse, and it's absolutely a form of cowardice, but I think it's something distinct and bad in a different way than actually considering yourself part of that group or agreeing with their beliefs.
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Jan 21, 2018 23:16
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cis autodrag posted:Now I want to see Jamie Clayton in a modern take on Curb Your Enthusiasm. I can't stop giggling at the idea of Manning and a bunch of friends also going to the escape room as the same time as the alt-right rear end in a top hat and at the last second the attendant fucks something up and Manning is stuck with the alt-right dorks and some alt-right weirdo is stuck in the other room with her friends instead. Hijinx ensue.
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Jan 21, 2018 23:16
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Petr posted:I suspect (with zero evidence) that they see Manning as red-pillable and are running their "killing the minority with love" strategy on her. I don't know if there's actually a term for that, but I've seen it happen enough times that there must be a guide about it on 8chan or something. How successful they've been at it is impossible to know right now. "Lovebombing", I think. It's possible that's what happened with Green, though as stated she also may have just been awful and hiding it the whole time. I don't think it'll work on Manning, though. I hope not, at least. Edit: Okay, there's a space in it, but it is an actual thing, both in relationships and in things like cults and the alt-right.
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Jan 21, 2018 23:17
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Maybe she's just trying to learn how to do the Carson Jones soul-melting smile and needs subjects, who knows. She should probably say something about it.
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Jan 21, 2018 23:19
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cis autodrag posted:I guess I disagree with you then. In my opinion it is important just to have trans people in the spotlight, even if they do nothing to explicitly advance the cause. Their mere existence and presence in spaces that were once cis only normalizes us and bring our issues mainstream. I gotta disagree on that point as well. Exposure isn't always good. I think you are severely underestimating just how much Manning is loathed by your average person. Not because she's trans (Though those sort of people certainly do exist. The loathing in question that i'm speaking is of a different source and is so great in quantity that it's somehow rubbed off onto trans issues.) but because she's perceived as betraying her own country by a large number of otherwise apathetic people. The actual contents of what she released aren't even widely known, which attributes to this perception. As is the lack of knowledge beyond "she released state secrets, got out of jail thanks to a pardon" due to a lack of information. But that too is part of the problem. You'll never convince the people who are willfully bigoted and ignorant. But they're not the people you want to educate. The lead up to gay marriage wasn't just a political dilemma spread across parties and the various bodies of government. It was the culmination of many years of public exposure showing the public at large that no, they aren't depraved perverts or untrustworthy freaks like the right wing kept claiming. By contrast you've got what's essentially an uphill battle if Manning is to represent us. Not only do you have to convince people that she didn't do anything wrong in an extremely contentious issue that has a poor spread of information disseminated about it but also educate them about what being transgender is before convincing them that her actions have no effect on her being trans. And if this doesn't make sense to you remember that when she came out as trans people on the right were dog whistling and even outright saying that her leaking state secrets because she was mentally imbalanced and crazy. To put it another way, to a lot of people who have no opinion on someone who is trans it's like if Richard Spencer decided to rep for a progressive movement. More than a few people would be appalled and wonder at the implications of that. She's a baaaad representative due to her baggage as a result, even if her intentions are good in that regard. Of course, if she was smart she could get around this. But the way she's acted so far is...Not smart. Gate crashing a neo-nazi party and loving up the messaging afterwards does not say that she's going to do us any favors in the long run. Ditto for the political stuff. Though, who knows? Maybe this is just bad luck so far. I'm just going to wait and see. Archonex fucked around with this message at 23:23 on Jan 21, 2018 |
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Jan 21, 2018 23:19
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cis autodrag posted:Really the questionable thing here is, what kind of person enjoys escape rooms? 
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Jan 21, 2018 23:21
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Archonex posted:I gotta disagree on that point as well. Exposure isn't always good. I think you are severely underestimating just how much Manning is loathed by your average person. Not because she's trans (Though those sort of people certainly do exist. The loathing in question that i'm speaking is of a different source and is so great in quantity that it's somehow rubbed off onto trans issues.) but because she's perceived as betraying her own country by a large number of otherwise apathetic people. The actual contents of what she released aren't even widely known, which attributes to this perception. As is the lack of knowledge beyond "she released state secrets, got out of jail thanks to a pardon" due to a lack of information. But that too is part of the problem. I don't feel we should have to make ourselves respectable to conservative social and political views to become part of public society. Edit : gay marriage happened after the image of a guys family became jc Penney catalog friendly, yet around the country once vibrant gay communities are being hollowed out and gentrified because if they're safe to be around they're safe to push out. Look at how quickly the queer community has been pushed out of San Francisco. The last lesbian bar closed, there's barely any gay people left living in the Castro, and what queer people are left work in tech and don't want to associate with other queers because they care more about social class than identity. It's hosed up. The MUMPSorceress fucked around with this message at 23:25 on Jan 21, 2018 |
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Jan 21, 2018 23:22
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cis autodrag posted:I don't feel we should have to make ourselves respectable to conservative social and political views to become part of public society. Neither do I. But that's not who i'm talking about.
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Jan 21, 2018 23:23
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There's a lot of rationalization going on right now for something that looks real bad. Maybe just wait for clarification before we absolve or crucify someone?
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Jan 21, 2018 23:24
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cis autodrag posted:I don't feel we should have to make ourselves respectable to conservative social and political views to become part of public society. Gay bars are closing because apps, not because we're getting married. Edit: I'm ignoring the attempt to divert into respectability politics because Archonex's point is actually different from that, but in a nuanced way that is never going to get a fair shot on an internet forum.
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Jan 21, 2018 23:27
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Petr posted:Gay bars are closing because apps, not because we're getting married. Gay bars are more than just places to hook up. Apps can't replace them.
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Jan 21, 2018 23:30
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I don't question that queer culture is being pushed out of basically everywhere, but I do also know that everyone's becoming a lot more antisocial these days. So there's also that (small) effect.
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Jan 21, 2018 23:33
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cis autodrag posted:Gay bars are more than just places to hook up. Apps can't replace them. Of course they are, and of course they can't, but they sure as gently caress can suck up the gay bars' profits. I love gay bars. I visit Tampa sometimes and I spend a lot of time in Ybor. But a whole lot of their revenue pre-2007 or so was people hooking up.
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Jan 21, 2018 23:33
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Petr posted:Of course they are, and of course they can't, but they sure as gently caress can suck up the gay bars' profits. In Madison, there's a popular club near downtown called Plan B and the apps haven't managed to shut it down but all the gentirifiers are trying by constantly complaining to the city about things like noise and crowds despite the fact that the bar was there before the houses were.
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Jan 21, 2018 23:35
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cis autodrag posted:In Madison, there's a popular club near downtown called Plan B and the apps haven't managed to shut it down but all the gentirifiers are trying by constantly complaining to the city about things like noise and crowds despite the fact that the bar was there before the houses were. That's nothing new, though - gay spaces have always had to fight that poo poo. I think trying to tie that to gay marriage is a stretch.
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Jan 21, 2018 23:36
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Petr posted:I suspect (with zero evidence) that they see Manning as red-pillable and are running their "killing the minority with love" strategy on her. I don't know if there's actually a term for that, but I've seen it happen enough times that there must be a guide about it on 8chan or something. How successful they've been at it is impossible to know right now. The MAGA chuds and Wikileaks are all in on Nunes’s insane memo that attempts to exonerate Trump by indicting the surveillance state. The manning candidacy is centered around indicting the surveillance state. It’s not hard to understand why they might want to form an alliance of convenience with her.
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Jan 21, 2018 23:38
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Petr posted:That's nothing new, though - gay spaces have always had to fight that poo poo. I think trying to tie that to gay marriage is a stretch. On Madison it all started at about the same time the first big gay weddings were, so that my personal experience with the whole thing. In places like New York and San Francisco I'm sure it's been happening longer than that, but it's really accelerated lately.
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Jan 21, 2018 23:39
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cis autodrag posted:Why? It's a picture with zero context offered and it depends on the viewer's transphobia to lead them to the immediate assumption that Chelsea Manning is a nazi. It depends on the viewer's ability to observe two contradictory things and ask questions. Much like Hillary came under criticism for her old pictures of palling around with Trump and Weinstein, Manning should be scrutinized for her own PR failures, and while I believe there's going to be a satisfactory explanation (unlike Hillary's problems), she is currently not above criticism because of her identity or whatever. cis autodrag posted:Don't tell me what is and isn't coded language against my community. "THis is a picture of person A at a social event with person B" isn't a coded message.
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Jan 21, 2018 23:54
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steinrokkan posted:It depends on the viewer's ability to observe two contradictory things and ask questions. Much like Hillary came under criticism for her old pictures of palling around with Trump and Weinstein, Manning should be scrutinized for her own PR failures, and while I believe there's going to be a satisfactory explanation (unlike Hillary's problems), she is currently not above criticism because of her identity or whatever. Read the last 5 pages before jumping into half an hour ago dude.
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Jan 21, 2018 23:59
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cis autodrag posted:Read the last 5 pages before jumping into half an hour ago dude. There's literally nothing in the past four pages other than people talking over each other with wild extrapolations from an objectively unfortunate picture. A progressive politician shouldn't be having photos taken with the alt-right no matter what, and this is just going to be an obstacle in an already stacked race, giving people a way to rationalize their dissent against Manning in a progressive language instead of a deeply reactionary one.
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Jan 22, 2018 00:07
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Eox posted:Maybe it was a really hard escape room, I can't think of a better ringer to bring in than someone who's been in a military prison It could be that it's an escape room that adds single tickets to whatever group has space (it is, says some tweet) - don't have a clue who any of those people are or anything so I dunno (other than the obvious).
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Jan 22, 2018 00:13
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eNeMeE posted:It could be that it's an escape room that adds single tickets to whatever group has space (it is, says some tweet) - don't have a clue who any of those people are or anything so I dunno (other than the obvious). It seems like infiltrating MAGA escape rooms to dismantle them from within and joining MAGA escape rooms just for a bit of harmless fun are both really loving stupid ideas for a would be democratic senator.
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Jan 22, 2018 00:20
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Who gives a poo poo about stupid twitter drama?
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Jan 22, 2018 00:24
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Apparently Yashar Ali is also buddies with alt-right figures and I don't know what's going on anymore? https://twitter.com/surgerychannel/status/955205429721817088 I need a drink.
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Jan 22, 2018 00:25
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Pollyanna posted:Apparently Yashar Ali is also buddies with alt-right figures and I don't know what's going on anymore? That's what everyone's saying. He obviously has an agenda and whether the things he's implying are true or a slander remains to be seen.
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Jan 22, 2018 00:28
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How deep does this rabbit hole go? 
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Jan 22, 2018 00:29
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I am perfectly happy to believe that Everybody Sucks as long as things resolve appropriately. Supposedly that picture of Chelsea doesn't show up in reverse image search so Yashar is the source of the photo, why does he have that photo and who took it and also this is stupid as poo poo, why do I even care? Just loving disavow the alt-right already.
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Jan 22, 2018 00:29
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One of the biggest failures of the Kerry campaign was waiting too long to respond to the Swift Boat ads. This was one of the core lessons from 2004 that Obama's campaign learned and applied by officially shooting down every stupid theory with campaign releases but trying not to have them bubble up to the candidate needing to respond. Now, we have an even faster media culture so campaigns and politicians need to prepare to respond quickly to even the dumbest of rumors and conspiracies.
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Jan 22, 2018 00:36
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