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Penpal posted:But certain people view dying in a hail of gunfire confirmation that you've entered gangster Valhalla. For normally adjusted people watching they'll view the palacial destruction and his death as his comeuppance There is also the thing where crime stories in which the protagonist is killed by the police was used for decades as a commonly accepted way to appease censors while selling the immensely popular fantasy of being a successful criminal. In England, when hangings were public, criminals got a last chance to repent before the crowd, and often used it to make a last speech about their exploits instead, often going out to cheers if they had the charm to pull it off. Scarface's ending should be read with the ending of Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid in mind. Except that dying is actually part of the fantasy; the ultimate escape from mundane consequences and the tedium of reality. Thelma and Louise also comes to mind.
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Jan 22, 2018 04:44
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Milky Moor posted:He isn't and they don't. what is he then once again it's pretty lame they didn't go into any of that stuff instead it was "finn i love u thats why i saved ur life! *kiss*" 
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Jan 22, 2018 04:44
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enraged_camel posted:what is he then What Snoke "is" is an attempt to fill in a focus-group check-list by marketing. "The originals had this Emperor character everyone loves? copy and paste him in!" Tender Benders claim that Snoke was somehow a subversion or mockery of the idea are either willful idiocy or naive ignorance of the creative process behind these movies. He's not a bootleg knockoff of the Emperor meant to fool the characters, he's a bootleg knockoff meant for the viewers, so they will buy tickets because it's just like the old Star Wars! Say what you will about how badly George Lucas flubbed the prequels (There's a lot to say), but there was an actual artistic drive and creative principle behind them. There is none of that to be found in 8-9. Everything is a repeat of the past, nothing new happens, all things are copies.
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Jan 22, 2018 05:19
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The only problem was they tried to create some kind of "mystery" to him that ended up not meaning anything. Abrams should have just established somehow that Snoke was some Dark Side cultist with a lot of resources who backed a paramilitary group that became the First Order. Like I get the feeling that an issue with Force Awakens was they wanted to avoid too much exposition or politics because the prequels had been derided for that, to the point of cutting a scene on Hosnian that helped explain the situation better, so the result was a lot of stuff the audience has to infer.
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Jan 22, 2018 05:22
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galagazombie posted:What Snoke "is" is an attempt to fill in a focus-group check-list by marketing. "The originals had this Emperor character everyone loves? copy and paste him in!" Tender Benders claim that Snoke was somehow a subversion or mockery of the idea are either willful idiocy or naive ignorance of the creative process behind these movies. He's not a bootleg knockoff of the Emperor meant to fool the characters, he's a bootleg knockoff meant for the viewers, so they will buy tickets because it's just like the old Star Wars! The sad part is that some of that poo poo is soooo easy to avoid. Like, they could have made it so that the finale takes place on a jungle planet instead of a snow planet They could have kept literally everything else the same, except changed the CGI to make the planet a tropical jungle But they didn't. It had to be a snow planet just like ESB.
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Jan 22, 2018 05:23
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It wasn't snow. Wasn't even cold.
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Jan 22, 2018 05:26
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enraged_camel posted:The sad part is that some of that poo poo is soooo easy to avoid. Several words in this made me think you were referring to this post I made Jeb! Repetition posted:I've been thinking about how the idea of consuming a star for fuel was cool in TFA but they could have done a lot more with it. Starkiller base should have started off as a temperate or tropical planet and gotten colder and colder the more of the star was used up. The animals have never had to go through a winter before so they all die when the temperature drop, and you could have a line or two of dialogue making this explicit when some of the characters find the corpses everywhere. There's gotta be something symbolic in the fact that their naivete of never having known hardship causes the First Order to kill them
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Jan 22, 2018 05:30
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enraged_camel posted:Who is Snoke? What is his story? How did he become a Sith Lord and gain control of The First Order? he's just luke force projecting
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Jan 22, 2018 05:30
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Maxwell Lord posted:It wasn't snow. Wasn't even cold. whatever the movie is basically a 6/10
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Jan 22, 2018 05:33
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Unormal posted:he's just luke force projecting Caves of Qud
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Jan 22, 2018 05:34
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What if Snoke WAS Darth Plagueis but it just never came up
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Jan 22, 2018 05:36
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TildeATH posted:How much money does TLJ make if it’s the same actors, same quality of acting/special effects, same beats and arcs but not a Star Wars movie? Well, it's not just a Star Wars movie, it's a movie explicitly about Star Wars, so it's pretty difficult to divorce from the IP. How about you just enlighten us at what you're trying to get at?
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Jan 22, 2018 05:44
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Milky Moor posted:He isn't and they don't. So, like the Emperor in the original trilogy?
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Jan 22, 2018 06:00
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Angry Salami posted:So, like the Emperor in the original trilogy? *quizzical glance at the intervening three decades*
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Jan 22, 2018 06:03
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The Sith as an institution never really mattered until the prequels. I'm pretty sure the word "Sith" was never uttered in the OT and was just something that showed up on the back of Darth Vader's action figure (and maybe in the script)
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Jan 22, 2018 06:03
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galagazombie posted:What Snoke "is" is an attempt to fill in a focus-group check-list by marketing. "The originals had this Emperor character everyone loves? copy and paste him in!" Tender Benders claim that Snoke was somehow a subversion or mockery of the idea are either willful idiocy or naive ignorance of the creative process behind these movies. He's not a bootleg knockoff of the Emperor meant to fool the characters, he's a bootleg knockoff meant for the viewers, so they will buy tickets because it's just like the old Star Wars! I dunno what you want me to say, dude. He's a petulant geezer in a chintzy hugh hefner bathrobe who shows off by flinging people around with his cool powers and talking poo poo to a guy he brainwashed and mindfucked since he was a kid, and gets shanked for it. This is what the movie shows. Your observation that he's nothing like the emperor at all in form or function, and therefore is a badly copy pasted emperor instead of something else entirely, is on its face absurd.
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Jan 22, 2018 06:10
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Yeah I think the image of a powerful old man lounging in a gold bathrobe in his LED man cave really tells us all we need to know about that character.
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Jan 22, 2018 06:18
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General Dog posted:Well, it's not just a Star Wars movie, it's a movie explicitly about Star Wars, so it's pretty difficult to divorce from the IP. How about you just enlighten us at what you're trying to get at? Trying to get at? I’m just trying to understand if folks think the movie is good beyond it’s Star Wars brand and assuming they do (I think it’s a well made sci fi movie) how much money it made and critical acclaim it garnered based solely on its brand. It’s interesting to me, it’s presumably interesting to other folks thinking about how to evaluate the movie and I thought it a nice way to get at that.
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Jan 22, 2018 06:38
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Rating it as... A Star Wars Episode N movie: not very good As a sci-fi film: ok, but easily improved with some minor changes As cinema: good visuals, some pacing issues, tone issues, music didn't stand out, poor use of screen time, ...
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Jan 22, 2018 06:54
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Tender Bender posted:I dunno what you want me to say, dude. He's a petulant geezer in a chintzy hugh hefner bathrobe who shows off by flinging people around with his cool powers and talking poo poo to a guy he brainwashed and mindfucked since he was a kid, and gets shanked for it. This is what the movie shows. Your observation that he's nothing like the emperor at all in form or function, and therefore is a badly copy pasted emperor instead of something else entirely, is on its face absurd. Yeah, to the extent that we need to know who Snoke is he shows us precisely who he is: an incredibly powerful Force wizard with no time or patience for the whole "wisdom" or "mind trick" portion of the program (even the Sith spend a lot of time meditating, as Vader and Maul showed us) such that his one demonstrated adventure into mental powers -- assuming he can even be trusted here, instead of just taking credit for something Ren unconsciously did on his own -- was basically slamming Ren and Rey action figures together until they had a co-location Facetime app open sometimes, sporadically. He then died to either a basic, entry level mind trick by Ren, or even worse, Ren just deliberately thinking the words "I am now taking my lightsaber and aiming it at my greatest enemy," and never thought anything besides "this is normal, this is how mind powers work" up until the second he died. He's an excellent argument for why most of the Force masters we run into are monks of some variety, rather than warlords. Snoke never seemed to get that there was more to this whole Force deal than just throwing people around the room.
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Jan 22, 2018 07:13
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General Dog posted:Yeah I think the image of a powerful old man lounging in a gold bathrobe in his LED man cave really tells us all we need to know about that character. Everything about how those scenes are filmed, from the cinematography to the music and so-on. Is meant to make him look like this intimidating overlord. Just because the Shark in Jaws is a laughably fake looking robot does not meant we were supposed to think of it that way (And thanks to Spielberg and the Cast/Crew we didn't). Sometimes movies just fail at achieving things, Snoke was supposed to look opulent, but the movie failed and he came out looking like Goldmember after a bad tanning session Maxwell Lord posted:It wasn't snow. Wasn't even cold. Yet the First Order used Snowtrooper armor, the Rebels fought in trenches, and it came down to Speeders vs. AT-AT's. Like Snoke, "salt" was a thin veneer meant to misdirect from the fact that these movies have nothing within.
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Jan 22, 2018 07:14
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TildeATH posted:This line of reasoning is disingenuous bullshit. Oh please there’s nothing at all disingenuous about it. Storytelling has not changed where every character on screen needs 30 minutes of exposition to tell you what their favorite food was when they were 12 and why he wears gold slippers. Don’t be loving obtuse.
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Jan 22, 2018 07:16
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galagazombie posted:Yet the First Order used Snowtrooper armor, It is a ridiculously bright environment in direct sunlight. That armor has a narrow visor to deal with the light.
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Jan 22, 2018 07:37
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K. Waste posted:Hot-take, which I assure you I make in good faith and not as an attack: "normally adjusted" is - however unconsciously - code for educated, white middle-class, and the perception that someone doesn't 'get' Scarface is directly correlated with how poor they are or how much they like hip-hop. What's dismissed in this false choice is the notion that Tony's death is both poetically just, and tragically expressive of the seemingly inescapable condition of poor, POC, and immigrants in America. See, also: The Mack. I should have used more than a handful of words, but the maladjusted people I had imagined are the type to take meaning and pleasure from violence, that enjoy a game like Hatred at a face level, etc. Normally adjusted in this context is psychological. I just got finished binging Mindhunter. Appreciate your post tho and don't disagree about the meaning behind Tony's death. Snoke also should have known something was up with Kylo the moment he started acting cool as a cucumber because he's usually pent up or lashing out. In the final half hour he hate shouts 80% of his lines after letting his steam go in the throne room.
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Jan 22, 2018 08:22
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galagazombie posted:Everything about how those scenes are filmed, from the cinematography to the music and so-on. Is meant to make him look like this intimidating overlord. Just because the Shark in Jaws is a laughably fake looking robot does not meant we were supposed to think of it that way (And thanks to Spielberg and the Cast/Crew we didn't). Sometimes movies just fail at achieving things, Snoke was supposed to look opulent, but the movie failed and he came out looking like Goldmember after a bad tanning session. Yeah, I've got to agree - I don't think I buy the 'Snoke as decadent aristocrat' interpretation, or if I do buy it, I don't think the film pulls it off. We see opulent luxury in the movie, on Canto Bight, and the people there don't look like Snoke. Hell, even Holdo comes across as more used to opulence than Snoke. Snoke still borrows heavily from the Emperor's appearance; the plain robes, no crown or uniform, the unfurnished, undecorated room as his palace. He still concerns himself more with the will of the Force than with political or military power, let alone displays of wealth or authority. Hell, even the scars which he makes no effort to hide seem to indicate a lack of vanity. And with the Emperor, that works - he's the dark mirror of Yoda, the ascetic of the Dark Side, a genuine, if twisted, source of wisdom. At best, you can say Snoke's trying to appear as if he were the Emperor and not entirely succeeding, just as Kylo is haunted by the desire to live up to Vader's legend. But then everything we see of him would be something of a front, that he'd really prefer to be taking advantage of his power and partying down on Canto, but needs to maintain the illusion of being a Dark Side mystic. And I think that's rather more depth than is possible from a character who is pretty much dismissed by the story as irrelevant.
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Jan 22, 2018 09:32
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Crion posted:Yeah, to the extent that we need to know who Snoke is he shows us precisely who he is: an incredibly powerful Force wizard with no time or patience for the whole "wisdom" or "mind trick" portion of the program (even the Sith spend a lot of time meditating, as Vader and Maul showed us) such that his one demonstrated adventure into mental powers -- assuming he can even be trusted here, slamming Ren and Rey action figures together of just taking credit for something Ren unconsciously did on his own -- was basically until they had a co-location Facetime app open sometimes, sporadically. He then died to either a basic, entry level mind trick by Ren, or even worse, Ren just deliberately thinking the words "I am now taking my lightsaber and aiming it at my greatest enemy," and never thought anything besides "this is normal, this is how mind powers work" up until the second he died. Think your reading too much into Snoke here. Nothing in the movie shows him as a not getting how this force stuff works. Forcetiming is presented by the movie as powerful and masterful, not "slamming Ren and Rey action figures together". Everything about his death scene is meant to frame it a great triumph against the forces of evil rather than exposing a charlatan.
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Jan 22, 2018 09:34
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I thought Snoke was an interesting character and his voice actor did a good job, but I also think it was a missed opportunity that we didn't get to learn more about him because he seemed to be one of the more interesting villains in the series. Judging by his appearance it doesn't seem that what happened in the throne room is the first time someone's sliced him up, either.
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Jan 22, 2018 11:29
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The only thing that really matters about Snoke is what he means to Kylo Ren, who has consistently been the primary antagonist through the ST. Putting too much time into what is very much a secondary character would've been a mistake IMO.
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Jan 22, 2018 13:20
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Milky Moor posted:He isn't and they don't. Ren mentions the Sith.
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Jan 22, 2018 13:24
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galagazombie posted:Everything about how those scenes are filmed, from the cinematography to the music and so-on. Is meant to make him look like this intimidating overlord. Just because the Shark in Jaws is a laughably fake looking robot does not meant we were supposed to think of it that way (And thanks to Spielberg and the Cast/Crew we didn't). Sometimes movies just fail at achieving things, Snoke was supposed to look opulent, but the movie failed and he came out looking like Goldmember after a bad tanning session galagazombie posted:Think your reading too much into Snoke here. Nothing in the movie shows him as a not getting how this force stuff works. Forcetiming is presented by the movie as powerful and masterful, not "slamming Ren and Rey action figures together". Everything about his death scene is meant to frame it a great triumph against the forces of evil rather than exposing a charlatan. I'm curious why you keep correctly describing Snoke as a petty loser, but then insist the movie "intended" for him to be something different, and that the scenes you watched which showed you one thing were actually meant to show you another thing. This is more akin to you arguing that Jaws meant for Quint to be a selfless hero, but the movie failed. Angry Salami posted:Yeah, I've got to agree - I don't think I buy the 'Snoke as decadent aristocrat' interpretation, or if I do buy it, I don't think the film pulls it off. We see opulent luxury in the movie, on Canto Bight, and the people there don't look like Snoke. Hell, even Holdo comes across as more used to opulence than Snoke. Snoke still borrows heavily from the Emperor's appearance; the plain robes, no crown or uniform, the unfurnished, undecorated room as his palace. He still concerns himself more with the will of the Force than with political or military power, let alone displays of wealth or authority. Hell, even the scars which he makes no effort to hide seem to indicate a lack of vanity. And with the Emperor, that works - he's the dark mirror of Yoda, the ascetic of the Dark Side, a genuine, if twisted, source of wisdom. No one is saying he's a decadent aristocrat. He is, as you said, trying to pass himself off as another Emperor, and failing. Complete with ridiculous ostentatious design choices. This is different from saying the film is trying to pass him off as another emperor and failing. He thinks his actions make him look strong when, as people keep pointing out, they make him look petty and weak. Like Crion says, he doesn't get what that MEANS beyond the surface level trappings. He has the level of understanding Rey does at the beginning of the film; the force is something jedi use to move rocks and make people do what they want. It's very striking when we first see Snoke how he's always growling and gesticulating and lashing out, instead of the calm and measured demeanor the emperor has. I'm sure you noticed this, and it has more significance than "he's more of an extrovert". He has no true understanding of the Force. Tender Bender fucked around with this message at 20:34 on Jan 22, 2018 |
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Jan 22, 2018 13:56
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Tender Bender posted:Like Crion says, he doesn't get what that MEANS beyond the surface level trappings. He has the level of understanding Rey does at the beginning of the film; the force is something jedi use to move rocks and make people do what they want. It's very striking when we first see Snoke how he's always growling and gesticulating and lashing out, instead of the calm and measured demeanor the emperor has. I'm sure you noticed this, and it has more significance than "he's more of an extrovert". He has no true understanding of the Force. The conclusion of this is that Kylo Ren is the one with true understanding of the Force. Rey's the one who inspires religious awe by lifting rocks in the end, while Kylo Ren tries to exact justice on Luke Skywalker.
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Jan 22, 2018 14:11
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Snoke and the emperor are interchangeable in their initial amount of appearances and how they've appeared, as foils for the actual characters to move plot through. Folks complain about not having explanations on him, then complain about the overwrought Rose intro dialogue. You think it would be different having scenes of people somehow having conversations about the dude they know has ruled their lives for the last 30 years as if it was the first time? Especially when he's gonna die soon? TildeATH posted:How much money does TLJ make if it’s the same actors, same quality of acting/special effects, same beats and arcs but not a Star Wars movie? The belda connundrum in film form. It would be the weirdest parody ever since Disney would sue them into oblivion for making an earnest movie about light saber force powered beings. This is star wars, folks see it for very niche reasons no other franchise can, which is why the 'no actual light saber battle' complaints exists. Of course those complaints, much like many others, aren't engaging with the film, but what they want it to be, so there's no pleasing them.
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Jan 22, 2018 15:26
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bushisms.txt posted:Snoke and the emperor are interchangeable in their initial amount of appearances and how they've appeared, as foils for the actual characters to move plot through. Satanic figures responsible for the events of the story are apparently not actual characters.
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Jan 22, 2018 16:11
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TildeATH posted:How much money does TLJ make if it’s the same actors, same quality of acting/special effects, same beats and arcs but not a Star Wars movie? A huge chunk of TLJ is the same quality as a mediocre mid-season tv arc (Poe’s mutiny, everything with Finn and Rose) of Star Trek or Battlestar Galactica, I’m not sure it would’ve made it as a movie on it’s own.
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Jan 22, 2018 17:19
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TheKingofSprings posted:A huge chunk of TLJ is the same quality as a mediocre mid-season tv arc (Poe’s mutiny, everything with Finn and Rose) of Star Trek or Battlestar Galactica, I’m not sure it would’ve made it as a movie on it’s own. That’s what I felt like—that it was another one of these beautiful big budget movies that was written like an average episode of a good tv show. Kinda lazy, somewhat touching and never really tense. Not so bad as a Pirates or Transformers movie but no better than The Golden Compass. Heck, I think Jupiter Ascending hit better notes (with generally worse actors) and that sure as heck didn’t make a billion and a half and have people trying to rehab it’s dumb flaws.
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Jan 22, 2018 17:42
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Penpal posted:But certain people view dying in a hail of gunfire confirmation that you've entered gangster Valhalla. For normally adjusted people watching they'll view the palacial destruction and his death as his comeuppance Comeuppance for?
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Jan 22, 2018 18:46
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Tender Bender posted:Yeah, that's one of his parlor tricks. He gets gutted like a fish two minutes later because of a situation he put himself in and did everything possible to enable, which is kind of the point because he's a dumbass. Some people seem to be regarding this as a mistake, like the creators got confused and accidentally filmed the main villain dying halfway through the second movie. He's a dumbass who has apparently corrupted Luke Skywalker's apprentice under his nose, built a multi-planet killing weapon, and re-conquered a galaxy. These things are straight from the text. The disconnect is when he has no impact in the film despite having done all these things. The logical endpoint is to have him be relevant, not whatever the gently caress substitution you are making because the logical conclusion hasn't occured.
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Jan 22, 2018 19:28
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Unoriginal Name posted:He's a dumbass who has apparently corrupted Luke Skywalker's apprentice under his nose, built a multi-planet killing weapon, and re-conquered a galaxy. To become the most powerful man in the known universe, you'd have to be some sort of extremely stable genius!
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Jan 22, 2018 19:33
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So the satanic wizard mastermind represents Trump... Wouldn't that mean Leia is Hillary Clinton?
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Jan 22, 2018 19:37
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General Dog posted:To become the most powerful man in the known universe, you'd have to be some sort of extremely stable genius! If Trump had (apparently) built the USA from scratch and conquered Eurasia in a month...he might actually be a stable genius.
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Jan 22, 2018 19:38
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