Ryuujin posted:

Wait are we going over this again? Wasn't MonsterEnvy the one who didn't believe this stuff last time and so was going to link the discussion to Mearls until everyone, hopefully , convinced him that that was a bad idea?

ReapersTouch posted:

A large glass construct that's in the shape of a giant bowl with arms and legs, that tries to grapple people and throw him in his head. Inside the head, is an ooze that's ready to engulf whatever is tossed in.

DalaranJ posted:

You must do this. It's one of the things that has improved my DMing the most.


Has anyone created an abstraction for spell distance and area, either officially or unofficially? I'm asking because I would be willing to do that. It seems like it would be pretty simple.

dont even fink about it posted:

If you're asking about actual systems for gridless combat in which position is still tracked more abstractly (including targeting by big attacks), off the top of my head 13th Age, The One Ring, and even Dungeon World do this.

Really it's only a subset of D&D players who insist that D&D can be played gridless with no problems.

ReapersTouch posted:

I'm talking about a beloved mascot of a powdered drink mix-in being turned into a vicious dungeons and dragons monster.

dont even fink about it posted:

If you're asking about actual systems for gridless combat in which position is still tracked more abstractly (including targeting by big attacks), off the top of my head 13th Age, The One Ring, and even Dungeon World do this.

Really it's only a subset of D&D players who insist that D&D can be played gridless with no problems.

AlphaDog posted:

Combat is divided into notional areas that have nothing to do with the terrain. You can think of it as a track: PC ranged -- PC Support -- Frontline -- Monster Support -- Monster Ranged.

You can move-action between areas on your side. You can't easily cross the frontline.

Combatants on the Frontline can hit each other with regular melee weapons, or they can hit the opposing Support with Reach weapons. Every combatant on the frontline counts as engaged/adjacent with every other combatant on the frontline. If a PC wants to leave the frontline without using Disengage, they provoke opportunity attacks.

Combatants on Support can hit the opponent's frontline with reach weapons. They can missile fire into the opponents Frontline. The can easily reach allies on the frontline.

Combatants at Ranged can engage in missile fire or ranged spells with any opponent.

If a PC wants to get to melee with the opponent's Support or Ranged, they have to come up with a way to do it - they can't just move-action through the fight and get there. Same goes for the monsters. Let them use movement abilities or describe their plan.

AoE effects hit everyone in an area, so you can smash the opponent's Support or Ranged no problem, but dropping anything on the Frontline hits everyone there, allies and opponents alike.

You can add things like "Knock a frontline opponent prone, can make a melee attack against a support opponent on your next turn" or whatever else. Generally say "yes" to players plans and work out how to keep things consistent.

dont even fink about it posted:

Really it's only a subset of D&D players who insist that D&D can be played gridless with no problems.

FRINGE posted:

For most of its history "playing on a grid" was restricted to pointing to where you were on the parties graph paper map with a pencil for most people. WotC pushed a transition towards table maps when they decided to start selling them.

There have always been rules related to it, but it was very uncommon until somewhere along the 3e era.

AlphaDog posted:

Yeah, but that didn't exactly come with "no problems" - it's always made it harder to be melee and easier to be ranged/aoe than if you play on a grid (or use rulers and templates, holy poo poo AD&D is different when you try to use certain rules).

e: Unless your DM realised and compensated, of course. If they did, you might not have noticed it was the usual thing that happened.

DalaranJ posted:

It needs a power that allows it to break through walls.


I meant has anyone abstracted that for 5e. Since Theatre of The Mind was the bill of goods they originally sold, but never followed through with afaik.

AlphaDog posted:

Structured gridless combat?


e: For clarity, that wasn't written specifically for 5th ed D&D, but I think the post I was responding to was asking about some kind of D&D.

AlphaDog posted:

Structured gridless combat?


e: For clarity, that wasn't written specifically for 5th ed D&D, but I think the post I was responding to was asking about some kind of D&D.

Nickoten posted:

AlphaDog posted:

I see where you're going, and it'd be a decent way to approach it, but by the time you tack all that on to D&D, you might as well just use the grid. My purpose in using an abstracted, structured system is to get past the "grids slow things waaaay dooooooooown" complaint without going full "eh, just use your imagination".

What I didn't stress in that post but might have said in the original conversation is that the goal is not to replace the grid with an equally detailed set of gridless rules, it's to have a framework for descriptive/narrative combat.

For example:

Someone tries to run through the line by saying "I run through the line"? No. gently caress no. That's the same as "just make it up". You can't run through the front line. Not even with taking OAs. You need to do something to get there.

Someone wants to Shield Push or Trip an engaged enemy and move past them? Yes! You made a gap! You can go through! You don't eat an OA! You expended a resource (ie, an attack or a bonus action), and now you can do the thing!

You killed an opponent and want to move through the line? Not without taking an OA from one enemy frontliner! Your action (not the technical 5e "Action", but the thing you did) means there's an opportunity to get through! The resource cost is potential hit points. The difference between this and the above is that by default you are trying to kill your opponents. A push or trip or something means either you've given up an attempt to kill someone in order to make your gap, or you've given up the opportunity to do a different bonus action in order to make a gap.

Waldo The Wizard just blew orc #3 into a fine red mist, and narrated it as "I'm making a gap!" The next turn is yours and you want to move through the line. Same as above. Move through, but take an OA from one enemy frontliner. Narratively, there's a gap. You didn't expend a resource though - getting a free disengage and then your full action/bonus/move thing would be bullshit.

Waldo etc, Hold Monster to make a gap for you... yeah, move on through, no OA.

You want to utilise one of the above three things next round? No! Opportunities not taken immediately are lost!

It's an abstracted, imagined version of a violent chaotic sword fight , not two lines of people standing there taking turns hitting each other. It's an aid to imagination and creative play, not a set of step-by-step rules that cover all the bases.

Nickoten posted:

I see where you're coming from; you want to have a system there without losing aspects of the fiction, too. I think Shadow of the Demon Lord's zones thing might better line up with this thinking. And I actually like the idea of the line holding because, really, why should the Fighter have to expend a once-a-turn resources to accomplish holding someone off from moving past you?

gradenko_2000 posted:

I'd argue that AD&D Combat and Tactics was the first ruleset that had so many grid-related rules that you couldn't ignore them without throwing out most of the book altogether, but I also don't think it's a fair characterization to say that WOTC was a driver of maps and battlefield accouterments - TSR was very much into selling that kind of thing too.

xiw posted:

Yeah, I think people also underestimate the influence of Pool of Radiance and the like - every AD&D 2e game we played through the 1990-1995 period used a grid for combat based on the Gold Box approach.

FRINGE posted:

For most of its history "playing on a grid" was restricted to pointing to where you were on the parties graph paper map with a pencil for most people. WotC pushed a transition towards table maps when they decided to start selling them.

There have always been rules related to it, but it was very uncommon until somewhere along the 3e era.

Dragonatrix posted:

So, uh, weird question here but I'm writing a few short homebrew Battlemaster manoeuvres since there's some obvious gaps and all. Some of 'em are definitely pretty dang strong and so need level gating, but I was just curious what the general thoughts are on using the Superiority Die to determine not-so-much added damage or anything immediate but rather determining the duration of effects. Like, something as simple as hitting a dude really hard to give disadvantage on attacks for a couple rounds or whatever. Or maybe half the roll. or something.

Dragonatrix posted:

So, uh, weird question here but I'm writing a few short homebrew Battlemaster manoeuvres since there's some obvious gaps and all. Some of 'em are definitely pretty dang strong and so need level gating, but I was just curious what the general thoughts are on using the Superiority Die to determine not-so-much added damage or anything immediate but rather determining the duration of effects. Like, something as simple as hitting a dude really hard to give disadvantage on attacks for a couple rounds or whatever. Or maybe half the roll. or something.

gradenko_2000 posted:

if you're going to guarantee a minimum duration for it so that rolling a 1 on the d12 doesn't screw you over, you might as well disregard the die roll and just give it a set duration.

Travelogue posted:

Travelogue 14 Mirtul 1493
We arrived at the gates of Eranmor shortly after dawn, and were met by a sight I did not expect. Sickly white walls wet with morning mist stretched in both directions, and a queue of travelers and pilgrims awaited before the gates. The rumors were true. Where once there was a simple river trading village now stood a vast metropolis, the likes of which challenged even the heights of Neverwinter. If not for the truth in front of me I would have not believed it. Perhaps the rumors of a portal to the Feywild in the city could be true as well.
After a short wait, we were waived to the front and asked for our “papers”. Of course we had no such thing, so we were directed to a corridor inside of the city wall and led to a small waiting room. A few others were already gathered, a merchant and his guard, and very odorous, very unkempt man who refused eye contact. We took our seats and were shortly met by an thin older man and a young female gnome, both wearing plain grey robes. The gnome walked to a small podium and introduced herself as a clerk from “The Ministry of Order and Progress”. Quite the pretentious title, in my opinion. The ostentatious name was quickly belittled by her quick announcement of its other name and her inability to control her giggling. “Moop!”, she proclaimed. A quick chastisement from the older man revealed this to be the gnome’s first time leading an orientation. A bothersome task made tedious by inexperience, I feared.
The young gnome began to collect information from us, furiously filling out documents as we replied. The guards worked for group called The Seekers, hired to protect the merchant. The tattered fellow merely groan “Grum” for his name and declared himself from “the woods”. I don’t doubt that, the fellow seemed homeless to me for sure. I introduced myself as Rang, a student of life and the arcane My companions Trundle and Saionji introduced themselves in turn, both proclaiming themselves to be fighters of some renown. Lastly, my friend Starke introduced himself, though he chose to hide his druidic nature. He’d heard his kind was less than welcome in this town. Our papers were quickly finished and we were given a quick introduction to the town and told where we were and weren’t allowed. Specifically the Emerald Square and the Feywild portal. A planar portal, she mentions, in passing, as if it was nothing. Ridiculous!
As we were about to be dismissed, the gnome stopped us short and told us there was one more thing. The gnome produced a small wooden rod engraved with runes from under the podium. She told us she had to check us for “hypersensitivity to natural energies that are abundant in Eranmor” and that it was “for our own protection”. She began to waggle the rod in front of the applicants. First the merchant and the guards, and then our friend Grum. As she moved it back and forth in front of Grum he began to shake violently. The gnomes eyes grew wide, and Grum snatched the stick from her hands. “This is how they’re doing it”, he growled. Grum muttered something in Sylvan, something Starke later told me roughly translated to “No witnesses” and an incredible fight ensued.
Grum filled the room with vines and shot shards of ice into the chest of one of the guards, killing him instantly. We rose and struck him with all our might, and he blew us all back as a thunderous wave blasted from his core. We rose and came at him again. Pushed back he muttered a curse. He merged himself with the vines he had filled the room with and reemerged next to a window. With one last wilting glare, he shifted into a bird and flew away.
It was at this point the the guards finally managed to breach the door being held shut with Grums conjured vines. Seeing the dead body and all of us covered in blood they drew their weapons, but the crisis was averted when the young gnome reappeared and explained everything quite frantically. The captain of the Silver Street Guard, a young lady by the name of Mesdinae arrived on the scene and thanked us for our service. She asked us not to leave the city until the investigation was complete and thanked us on our way. Our papers were gathered from the floor and delivered to us by the gnome and we were allowed to enter the city. In all the commotion it would seem we had skipped our turn with the waggling rod, a boon I suspect was worth the trouble to my friend Starke.
We found lodgings and drank away the rest of the day.
Rang of Dipkin

Travelogue posted:

Travelogue 15 Mirtul 1493
We awoke today full of vim and vigor. I wish. Instead we all awoke hungover and sore from yesterday’s events. Hopefully our second day in this grand city of Eranmor would prove to be calmer. We met up in the dining area of the tavern and discussed the day’s plans. We had come to Eranmor to learn more about an artifact we had found on a previous adventure, an oblong grey stone with streaks of green, bearing runes I did not recognize. The locals directed us to a shop called “The Wizard’s Way”, an upscale establishment near the Emerald Square on Silver Street. Our destination set, we stumbled out of the tavern and into the morning sun.
Finding The Wizard’s Way was no problem at all, as it was the most ostentatious building I have ever seen. Multicolored nonsense runes littered the front of the building and a large windowed front let through a sickly rainbow of colors and flashes. Inside we found racks filled with flaming swords, glowing breastplates, and torches of every color and size imaginable. After a moment a young clerk approached us and asked what we needed. We explained our situation and he smiled as us, saying we needed to speak with “The Wizard”. He lead us to the back of the store and disappeared behind a curtain. After a moment he returned and told us The Wizard would see us.
We stepped through a curtain into a barely lit room, a stark difference from the overwhelming light of the shop. A thick smoke floated in the air, and mirrored walls reflected the light of strange crystal ball placed on the lone table in the room. Behind the table sat a ridiculous looking man. Despite appearing quite young, the man had a long beard that ran to the ground and was a bright white. Dyed, I suspect. He wore a tall pointed cap and a voluptuous red robe. He looked up at us at we entered and in the deepest voice I imagine he could muster he said “I AM THE WIZARD. WHAT DO YOU SEEK?”
Stifling my incredulity, I explained our situation. He took the strange artifact and examined it for a moment before smiling. Of course he knew what it was, he said. “Why this is a dwarven lightstone! You need only speak the trigger word and it shall burst into a bright flame!” He held the stone aloft a spoke some words of magic. Words I knew. The words one speak to invoke a spell of Continual Light. But nothing happened. The Wizard’s eyes grew sharp and angry and he began to yell. He accused us of being sent by someone named Hawthorne, there to disgrace his good name, and began to call for his clerk. I told him we could see our way out and complimented him on his failure of a continual light spell and we left.
On our way out the clerk stopped us to apologize. We inquired about this “Hawthorne” and learned that he had owned a magic shop nearby before The Wizard had run him out. Apparently Hawthorne couldn’t compete with The Wizard’s “great deals”. We resolved to find this Hawthorne and see if he could help identify our stone.

Travelogue posted:

Travelogue 2 - 15 Mirtul 1493
We arrived at Hawthorne’s house in short order. We had met a guard who told us “Hawthorne had helped his son with a thing” and gave us easy directions. We knocked and no one answered. We knocked again and heard slight whispers from inside. Still no answer. We turned to walk away and the door creaked open ever so slightly. A small man in glasses with a short cropped beard and hair peeked through the crack. We explained what we were after, told him what had happened with The Wizard, and he let us into his home. As we walked in I was taken aback by the sheer number of books in the abode. I had never seen so many books in a private collection and I’d be lying if I said I wasn’t instantly jealous.
We all sat down and the man properly introduced himself as Hawthorne. He told us that he could identify our item, but we would have to work for it. We agreed to hear him out and his face hardened. He looked directly at us and without hesitation said “I want you to kill The Wizard”. We each exchanged a quick look of surprise. Hawthorne smiled and told us to talk it over and he would get some tea for us, leaving the room.
We were all immediately against it. The Wizard was a charlatan, sure, and I wouldn’t be particularly sad if he wasn’t around anymore, but we had just gotten to this town and an assassination in exchange for identifying an item did not seem like a fair deal. We were discussing simply going to the guards and telling them what had happened here when Hawthorne entered the room. The look on our faces must have belied our intentions as he simply said “I cannot allow you to leave then”.
Hawthorne pulled an amulet out of his robe and placed it around his neck and a loud clang echoed throughout the room. A large suit of armor that had been near the door sprang to life and began to advance towards us. Hawthorne vanished out of sight, an invisibility spell to be sure, and we all stood and drew our weapons. Examining the armor I immediately recognized our danger. This was a shield guardian, a powerful automaton of magic and steel, capable of devastating blows and self repair. This would not be an easy fight, especially with a powerful wizard dancing about us invisibly.
With such dour odds, I turned to intellect over strength. I formed a bolt of fire in my hands and, though it pained me, pointed it at the books. I was sure that he valued them as highly as I did. “Stop, or I’ll burn them”, I demanded of Hawthorne. There was no response. With a heavy heart I flung the bolt at the bookcase only to watch it dispel mid flight as a pixie appeared in front of it. “That’s enough, Trig!” she shouted as Hawthorne appeared beside her with an angry look on his face. “I’m releasing the spell”, she said and Hawthorne shimmered and shifted, turning into a very angry looking sprite. Having lost its host, the amulet slipped away and bounced along the ground. The armor groaned to a halt and we heard the sound of a door opening behind us. A small man in glasses with a short cropped beard and hair stood before us in pajamas. He wiped his eyes, looked at us and said “What are you all doing in my house?”

Malpais Legate posted:

I really don't understand why people, when invited to play a game with their friends, immediately go "wow I sure want to ruin this for everyone else."

Nash posted:

Had my first session as a dm. Just rolling characters so far. I have one friend who we convinced to play because we thought he would enjoy it. He has told his brother who is also playing that he intends to “torpedo the campaign”

He specifically chose an evil alignment even though we all advised for playing our first campaign it would be a bad idea.

Do I just uninvite him at this point or try a session or two to see how it will go? I think the other players are fired up about playing and I don’t want this one player to kill the fun. Is there a good DM way to handle it in game?

ritorix posted:

Adding to that, it's fine, but I would bump the dex to 16, less str/int. You can already use a longbow (elf supremacy) and that would be your go-to attack for a long time, better than ranged cantrips and safer than shillelagh. You can also get 1 point higher AC using studded, +3 dex and a shield, over hide, +2 dex and a shield.

Nash posted:

Had my first session as a dm. Just rolling characters so far. I have one friend who we convinced to play because we thought he would enjoy it. He has told his brother who is also playing that he intends to “torpedo the campaign”

He specifically chose an evil alignment even though we all advised for playing our first campaign it would be a bad idea.

Do I just uninvite him at this point or try a session or two to see how it will go? I think the other players are fired up about playing and I don’t want this one player to kill the fun. Is there a good DM way to handle it in game?