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It's an interesting idea sure but the difference between sentience in the animals humans eat and the the ants and humans isn't remotely similar.
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Jan 22, 2018 15:32
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Asuron posted:He was going to do things the same way humans operate with things that are lower on the foodchain. That is a terrible analogy and a pretty poor argument.
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Jan 22, 2018 15:41
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Asuron posted:It was always about eating humans because they are a food source and by extension controlling his territory the same way humans do with everything else to control that food source. Is that evil? Does that make humans evil? Yes. What about vegetarians? Ye*choking noises*
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Jan 22, 2018 15:47
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I bet some of the chimera ants taste good.
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Jan 22, 2018 15:57
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Jan 22, 2018 16:00
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Netero rules, Meruem drools
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Jan 22, 2018 16:14
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EmmyOk posted:It's an interesting idea sure but the difference between sentience in the animals humans eat and the the ants and humans isn't remotely similar.  X-Men's narrative of individuals fighting against marginalization loses a lot in the face of many of those individuals actually being legitimate threats to society, fully-realized boogieman the likes of which real-world political scare tactics could only dream of. The chimera ants are shown to be just as cruel and capricious as humanity. Fair cop. They're also, each of them - individually - much stronger than 99% of the human population, including the majority of nen practitioners. And they want to eat us, or in a best case scenario "Groom" the best of us while slaughtering the rest like chattel. Even if you want to argue Meruem and a few others come around to peaceful coexistence, the majority don't, and Meruem can barely keep his own royal guard under control. Pouf was incredibly strong, loyal, and smart, and was completely willing to deceive his own beloved king for his own ends (in the king's best interest, boy oh boy). Youpi was even more obscenely powerful, and went along with Pouf's plan. There's also the fundamental issue present in any meritocracy, such as the one Meruem advocates: who determines worth? Meruem? Are their functional limits to how many people make the cut? If you don't make the cut, does this mean you deserve to be eaten? Meruem is idealistic. He's also arguably just as monstrous as before. To be clear, I think Togashi does a good job employing the ants as a dark mirror of humanity, and puts in the effort to characterize them beyond being mere villains. Despite how lukewarm I was on the first half of the arc, I ended up liking quite a few of the ants as characters, in particular Meruem's transformation from a cruel and capricious despot to an empathetic idealist. But there's absolutely no debate as to who the real villains were in my mind. At best, you can chalk it up to a battle for survival, and the human beings beat the bugs.
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Jan 22, 2018 16:34
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Even by the Ants own ideology of survival of the fittest they are deserving of death. Never mind our culture of society, where basically only the most human ants could take part. Meruem and co were dead as soon as they took their heritage seriously
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Jan 22, 2018 16:45
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Bad Seafood posted:To be clear, I think Togashi does a good job employing the ants as a dark mirror of humanity, and puts in the effort to characterize them beyond being mere villains. Despite how lukewarm I was on the first half of the arc, I ended up liking quite a few of the ants as characters, in particular Meruem's transformation from a cruel and capricious despot to an empathetic idealist. But there's absolutely no debate as to who the real villains were in my mind. At best, you can chalk it up to a battle for survival, and the human beings beat the bugs. That puts it very well. Basically a lot of people seems to frame the conflict as humanity and the ants as one of morality, when it is actually one of survival. Also, it is often ignored that the ants, despite their sapience, never grow beyond their animalistic nature, which is actually a huge plot point.
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Jan 22, 2018 16:48
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Yeah, morality doesn't matter, that's also how I see it. The Ants are basically what would happen if a new species kicked us off the top of the food chain, and they have their own survival instincts that are "evil" if you are a human but are just what an animal in a position of absolute power would pull off. It's about survival of the fittest and for a while they got the upper hand, until Netero strikes down their king.
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Jan 22, 2018 16:55
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The whole xmen as an allegory thing probably worked better in the context of like, ones got wings and one has claws, rather than constant threat of the future being hosed up by someone, somehow
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Jan 22, 2018 17:06
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Bad Seafood posted:It also kinda into the same trap as the X-Men, honestly, where the context of the narrative kinda undermines the moral of the story. Marvel's mutants have long been stand-ins for various marginalized groups, but with the added complication of wild and varied superpowers. You have attempts to draw parallels between, say, mutant registration and the Japanese internment (just to throw out an example), but when a certain subset of the population literally consists of potentially emotionally-compromised young adults who may or may not have the power to casually rewrite reality, then yeah, I'm gonna be honest here and say I'd want those dudes registered. I'd like to know if I'm sharing a social sphere with someone who can shapeshift, or freeze anything they touch. There's an issue of X-Men where a teenager wakes up and discovers his mutation is secreting invisible toxins that vaporize organic tissue on contact. He literally can't not kill people wherever he goes. You bet I want that kid's location labeled on a map - by drones or something. Imagine I posted your STeiner av in response to this! I am a big fan of Netero subverting the "strong guy becomes wise and compassionate sage trope" to be "sage is insanely pissed at how chill he became". He's so salty when Meruem responds with "Bravo" and applause.
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Jan 22, 2018 17:07
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EmmyOk posted:Imagine I posted your STeiner av in response to this! It's amusing that prior to that point he talks about wanting a real challenge again, if I recall correctly, and the moment he gets one he's pissed that he's outmatched. I might be misremembering though because I can't remember exactly when the former thing happened.
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Jan 22, 2018 17:14
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Nah you are, he's pissed that Meruem talks down to him but he specifically says how thankful he is for the events that lead to him being able to fight Meruem.
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Jan 22, 2018 17:18
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Roland Jones posted:It's amusing that prior to that point he talks about wanting a real challenge again, if I recall correctly, and the moment he gets one he's pissed that he's outmatched. I might be misremembering though because I can't remember exactly when the former thing happened. he cherishes the challenge, but gets really salty when meruem doesn't consider him an opponent to take seriously. Which makes him bust out the name thing.
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Jan 22, 2018 17:21
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Right, thanks for correcting me. I felt that something was off.
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Jan 22, 2018 17:23
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yeah the part when he remembers how no human could match him in his prime and he started to tone himself down you remembered correctly. He thinks something like: "is that really the martial arts i strived so hard to perfect?"
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Jan 22, 2018 17:26
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The whole X-men doesn't work as some are legit threat is one of the dumbest ideas that comic book fans have convinced themselves is clever.
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Jan 22, 2018 19:42
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Bisse posted:Uhm. Yes. How many breads have you eaten in your life?
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Jan 22, 2018 21:17
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im rewatching the chimera ant arc and forgot netero gave colt a bone and tried saving the ant queen for him what a god drat saint wow
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Jan 23, 2018 03:36
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e X posted:That is a terrible analogy and a pretty poor argument. Mind trying better than a one liner? They are sentient animals who live off of eating people. I agree with the previous poster, the storyline is basically a survival story where humans won. But what the ants were doing isn't evil if they have to eat us to survive. On a human level we can't tolerate the existence of something like that because it basically turns us into cattle and throws us off the top of the food chain, which means they must be destroyed by any means necessary to ensure our safety. But trying to throw morals into whether a species is evil because they want to eat us is silly, because that's not how this works and it's pretty clear based off both HXH and Togashi's previous work that he doesn't see other creatures eating us because they want to survive as evil either
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Jan 23, 2018 04:09
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Asuron posted:Mind trying better than a one liner? They are sentient animals who live off of eating people. I agree with the previous poster, the storyline is basically a survival story where humans won. But what the ants were doing isn't evil if they have to eat us to survive. On a human level we can't tolerate the existence of something like that because it basically turns us into cattle and throws us off the top of the food chain, which means they must be destroyed by any means necessary to ensure our safety. But trying to throw morals into whether a species is evil because they want to eat us is silly, because that's not how this works and it's pretty clear based off both HXH and Togashi's previous work that he doesn't see other creatures eating us because they want to survive as evil either https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLwzkZonb28 75s if it doesn't load like did you forget the whole subplot of them killing humans for sport
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Jan 23, 2018 05:15
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Also, the ants didn't have to eat humans. They chose to.
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Jan 23, 2018 05:17
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The ants were ironically less evil when they just monster animals doing what comes natural. If you get mauled by a bear you don't call it evil, it's a bear They become evil once they start taking on human traits, killing for fun, rounding humans up into farms, planning the extinction of humanity. They could live perfectly fine without killing humans, but they decide that they're superior lifeforms and deserve to conquer the planet.
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Jan 23, 2018 05:27
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Humans taste really, really good, OK?
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Jan 23, 2018 05:27
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the point of the chimera ant arc isnt 'ants are better than humans' its that 'ants and humanity are the same'
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Jan 23, 2018 05:41
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Endorph posted:the point of the chimera ant arc isnt 'ants are better than humans' its that 'ants and humanity are the same' Well, y'know, once they start eating humans and develop human-like tendencies and individuality.
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Jan 23, 2018 05:42
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TriffTshngo posted:Well, y'know, once they start eating humans and develop human-like tendencies and individuality.
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Jan 23, 2018 05:48
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Kild posted:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLwzkZonb28 No? The whole point is that once they started incorporating aspects of humanity, some of them that took on some of the worst aspects of humanity, which in turn resulted in that behaviour. Not to mention, not all of the ants behaved like this. Did you perhaps forget about the likes of Meloreon or Ikalgo, who are also Chimera Ants. Are they also evil based off the sadistic actions of some of their race? I also guarantee you they've also both eaten humans at one point before they met Gon, so what would you think of them exactly? Gruckles posted:The ants were ironically less evil when they just monster animals doing what comes natural. If you get mauled by a bear you don't call it evil, it's a bear I mean well that's kinda the point isn't it though of that arc. Unless the Ants were stopped right there, they would conquer the planet based off of how individually strong each one of them were and how easily they reproduce. They would effectively replace humanity as the most dominant animal. The story at it's core is basically using them as a much more aggressive and powerful form of humanity, used to reflect both some of the worst and best aspects that come with that and what potential actions humans would take to counteract a threat on that level, one that basically would remove them as the dominant species. It's why I find ascribing morality to what they eat pointless. Saying eating humans is inherently bad and then pointing out some of them engaged in torture or whatever misses the point of the whole drat arc. It's not that simple and it never was. Asuron fucked around with this message at 06:18 on Jan 23, 2018 |
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Jan 23, 2018 06:15
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Jan 23, 2018 06:38
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Jan 23, 2018 07:02
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Asuron posted:I mean well that's kinda the point isn't it though of that arc. Unless the Ants were stopped right there, they would conquer the planet based off of how individually strong each one of them were and how easily they reproduce. This would not have happened. Humanities easy access to stuff like the Rose would mean that the Ants were never a true threat to the world. But they would have killed tons of people and spread far before the Primary leaders of the World just decided to wipe them out regardless of the cost of human lives.
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Jan 23, 2018 07:06
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Who cares, Leorio already beat the bugs and saved Gon. Let’s talk about the chapter that’s coming up, and how it’ll be about Leorio beating up all the princes and saving the day. It IS coming this/next week, right?
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Jan 23, 2018 11:07
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MonsterEnvy posted:This would not have happened. Humanities easy access to stuff like the Rose would mean that the Ants were never a true threat to the world. But they would have killed tons of people and spread far before the Primary leaders of the World just decided to wipe them out regardless of the cost of human lives. Nah, the Rose could only be used the way it was because of how far out the Meruem and his followers were from the big areas. They were basically in a country which had as ideal conditions as you could hope for to eradicate them. We also saw the repercussions of the Ants just hitting Meteor City. It caused massive chaos and you can't use stuff like the Rose in areas as densely populated like that, which was why the Troupe was even called in to handle it. If they had spread out further than they did, the Rose is suddenly not really an option unless you plan on taking out large swathes of the human population with them to accomplish it. Hell even that only worked because Netero basically went in as a suicide bomber. Not to mention there are still the eggs Pariston has got laying around from the palace. Who knows what'll happen there once they hatch.
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Jan 23, 2018 14:11
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Late comer to the thread and I can't ever tell if people are joking about wanting Leorio attention.
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Jan 23, 2018 14:44
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Nonexistence posted:Late comer to the thread and I can't ever tell if people are joking about wanting Leorio attention. Definitely not a joke.
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Jan 23, 2018 15:37
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Nonexistence posted:Late comer to the thread and I can't ever tell if people are joking about wanting Leorio attention. 
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Jan 23, 2018 16:11
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Nonexistence posted:Late comer to the thread and I can't ever tell if people are joking about wanting Leorio attention. Of the Main Group Leorio got the least time and not even an arc focused on him. He's been long overdue for some good development.
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Jan 23, 2018 16:15
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Asuron posted:the Rose is suddenly not really an option unless you plan on taking out large swathes of the human population with them to accomplish it. Thats what I said. If the Ants population and territory grew too much that then the Human Leaders would use stuff like the Rose and other Nukes to wipe them out regardless of the cost of human life. They would have done unprecedented damage but they never would have overtaken Humanity. Also the reason Zazan's forces had to be wiped out by the Phantom Troupe is because they were in Meteor City a place no one cares about as its a garbage dump. Had they showed up in a real city like Yorknew Pro Hunters would be called in to wipe them out. MonsterEnvy fucked around with this message at 19:02 on Jan 23, 2018 |
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Jan 23, 2018 18:59
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Leorio is almost a long-standing secondary, more than a member of the 'main group'. At this point he has appeared in... what, less than 1/4 of all the chapters?
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Jan 23, 2018 19:10
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