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Ccs posted:It's the solution to an obscure problem. http://www.nasdaq.com/article/byzantine-fault-tolerance-the-key-for-blockchains-cm810058 Byzantine generals is not an obscure problem. Nor is it unsolved. It is a very fundamental problem in distributed systems over unreliable asynchronous point-to-point communication channels. At the heart the problem is “how do a number of parties reach agreement if all they have is unreliable asynchronous communication channels” and the answer is “they don’t.” At a more computey level, the problem is how do distributed. databases make sure their data is consistent if they have to communicate over untrusted networks like the internet. The name comes from the original formulation: Byzantine generals need to make a move: attack or retreat. Since this is long ago, they cannot just phone one another, but have to send messengers. Messengers can be captured by the enemy. If only part of the Byzantine army attacks they lose. How do they agree on whether to attack or retreat? The problem is at the same time not solved first by bitcoins and not solved by bitcoins. The problem is proved unsolvable in general. Bitcoin doesn’t change that. The problem has already been solved under various assumptions on top of the problem (for a simple example, if the channels are reliable it’s simple, or if they are synchronous it’s simple too, if you have reliable multiparty communication, it’s trivial - basically remove any word from the problem description and it’s solvable and solved). Bitcoin doesn’t solve the problem, yet kind of does without re,owing any word from the original problem. It does so by instead adding words: The solution is probabilistic; while there’s a 100% chance of reaching agreement, it is still possible they don’t. It’s similar to how picking a random number, you’re 100% it will be an irrational number, yet you could pick 7 which isn’t. Probabilities are weird that way. Furthermore, it introduces the concept proof of work, which doesn’t exist in the problem and is a bit like adding an external oracle that can tell if the messenger is lying. In summary, Bitcoin provides an interesting set of assumptions under which a probabilitic solution to an unsolvable problem is solvable. Just like previous assumptions do. klafbang fucked around with this message at 06:33 on Jan 23, 2018 |
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Jan 23, 2018 06:27
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klafbang posted:Furthermore, it introduces the concept proof of work, which doesn’t exist in the problem and is a bit like adding an external oracle that can tell if the messenger is lying.
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Jan 23, 2018 06:42
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Alpha Mayo posted:So is it right to say that in the case of a majority attack, the oracle itself would be lying? Less lying, more just giving a different answer. In the problem, the goal is “agreement,” not a specific outcome. Even if all the generals e dot one want to attack, it’s ok if they all decide to retreat. Keyword being “all agree.” In a majority attack they still agree, just not to what anybody wanted. Bitcoin in a nutshell: not what anybody wanted. E: I should perhaps mention that there are many consistency models. Bitcoin provides one of the weaker ones, “eventual consistency.” The parties will agree at some point but we cannot really say when. That’s why you have to wait for “ klafbang fucked around with this message at 07:13 on Jan 23, 2018 |
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Jan 23, 2018 06:56
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I'm starting to think the party may be over.
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Jan 23, 2018 07:02
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Uranium 235 posted:i'm familiar with it So I've been trying to figure out how they do the "price fixing" and you are right, it is spoofing. I recorded a video of it just to see how it was being done, because I noticed the Bid order book numbers would effectively stay the same no matter what. If an order went through at the market bid price, a brand new order would be in its place the next tick, and all the Total numbers would inflate back up to their previous values, instead of being eaten away at like you'd expect. I think some process generates a new buy order at the Bid price the split second the previous Bids are filled, essentially creating a cushion that inflates forever and absorbs the orders, preventing price movement downward. So it can look like like everything is about to drop, but because there really is essentially an infinite number of buy orders sitting there absorbing everything, the price never moves. This would explain how it is being done on GDAX too, since a bot like that could be possible even without backdoor API access. GDAX is pretty low volume and low movement in general due to their fee structure (people hate being the Taker), but now I understand how they are keeping the price to one point. It is also how they were 'drawing' stairs on the charts and making completely flat candles. It looks funky, but it would be less costly and less obvious than pumping up the price. Spoofing is all that is keeping crypto afloat right now.
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Jan 23, 2018 08:01
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AARO posted:I'm starting to think the party may be over. How's it goin there buddy? Everything okay?
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Jan 23, 2018 08:06
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Grump posted:Probated for what? For being a freaking retard online
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Jan 23, 2018 08:08
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klafbang posted:Byzantine generals need to make a move: attack or retreat.
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Jan 23, 2018 08:09
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just another posted:How's it goin there buddy? Everything okay? I think we may be entering a 1 or 2 year bear market. I think it might be time to exit crypto.
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Jan 23, 2018 08:09
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Sounds like a sober analysis to me.
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Jan 23, 2018 08:13
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AARO posted:I think we may be entering a 1 or 2 year bear market. I think it might be time to exit crypto. Fear -> Capitulation?
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Jan 23, 2018 08:14
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https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=13221.0 fun reads
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Jan 23, 2018 08:20
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AARO posted:I think we may be entering a 1 or 2 year bear market. I think it might be time to exit crypto. I mean I actually find Bitcoin interesting in some ways as a faux-solution to a puzzle, but I wish it ended there. Also CNBC is shilling crypto really hard which scares me. Let's make the guy printing Tether from his basement the richest and most powerful man in the world. Would be fitting in this timeline
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Jan 23, 2018 08:39
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You guys have made worse people the most powerful in the world tbh
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Jan 23, 2018 08:44
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Just received my last .01 BTC mining payment, which is worth ~future currency~ no more poop for me.
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Jan 23, 2018 08:56
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JSUIQgEVDM4
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Jan 23, 2018 09:01
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Alpha Mayo posted:Let's make the guy printing Tether from his basement the richest and most powerful man in the world. the disaster scenario for him is the levies he is putting up breaking because an unabated crash of a ponzi scheme is usually pretty total and then his tether printer and his bitcoins are both useless. as long as he can present the illusion that bitcoin may have hit a floor he can continue to unload his personal supply of bitcoins for real money. to that end however much tether he has to print means nothing. 1 tether a trillion tethers. no difference to him as long as the price of bitcoin can be held up how much actual money has he collected working that scam? a hundred million? more? who knows. wasnt most of it printed on the downside of the bubble when people were more interested in getting out of bitcoin?
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Jan 23, 2018 09:42
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That actually sounds like a Twilight Zone version of Hell. You run one of the biggest heists in history and walk away with what was worth billions of dollars, but the crime you committed itself caused their value to crash to nothing and you are doomed to wonder the wastelands with people refusing to take your buttcoins
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Jan 23, 2018 10:03
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i wouldnt worry about him. every day bitcoin is kept from crashing theres gotta be people wanting to buy them for real money and on bitfinex
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Jan 23, 2018 10:23
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Alpha Mayo posted:That actually sounds like a Twilight Zone version of Hell. You run one of the biggest heists in history and walk away with what was worth billions of dollars, but the crime you committed itself caused their value to crash to nothing and you are doomed to wonder the wastelands with people refusing to take your buttcoins
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Jan 23, 2018 10:30
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Durzel posted:That sounds like an pretty cool premise for a Black Mirror episode tbh. Nah it's basically what happens after you win a game of Monopoly and then your family hates you.
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Jan 23, 2018 10:42
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on the other hand if there was a run on bitfinex of people holding tether using it to buy bitcoin from bitfinex (probably for less tether than they sold for but dear god not if you havent already given them your id theft info) and pulling their bitcoin and real money from that exchange they should be able to kill it and save bitcoin. not that im for saving bitcoin but im somehow even more against that exchange owner becoming an actual true cashed-out bitcoin billionaire because people decided his personal funny money that he printed after being hacked surely really did have as much value as was lost from the hack (even though thats ironically true- $0) of course only optimistically the first 20% of people in that run would be able to get anything out before the bitfinex owner declares it was hacked with a total loss and absconds with his cash and bitcoin and tethers (which would against all logic continue to be traded at some value >$0.00 for months because bitcoiners refuse to acknowledge the concept of total loss and holding the bag)
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Jan 23, 2018 11:01
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From my use of one of the deep web markets I learned that there are heroin addicts who rely on the supply they get from online using bitcoin to not have withdrawal issues... please say a prayer for all innocent heroin addicts before making a post with anti bitcoin energies, everyone
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Jan 23, 2018 11:05
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This will be a fun page to bump quotes from when bitcoin reaches new ATH
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Jan 23, 2018 11:50
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I’m looking forward to when it hits 6k again for the title to be doubly true.
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Jan 23, 2018 11:54
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Bitcoin is always likely to maintain this massive crash & recovery pattern, I can't see any reason why this would change. There are plenty of people in the world - an infinite number perhaps - who will read mainstream news stories of "1000%+ value since a short time ago" and be completely sucked in. Everyone, particularly uncritical people, want massive returns for minimal or ideally zero effort, as soon as possible please. News stories like this are music to their ears. They will do a bit of extra bedtime reading, see a graph where BTC was like $1000 at the start of the 2017 and is now 7x that amount, even 20x not so long ago, and think "all I have to do is get in now and I'll 5x my money in no time". There are vastly more people in the world that are dumb enough to put everything they own into poo poo like this, even money they don't own thanks to near-zero interest rates on loans, believing all the hype about how cryptocurrency is this magical thing that has passed Wall Street by that makes average Joes rich. What I'm saying I guess that it doesn't matter that Bitcoin is completely ineffective as a currency. It's "value" has long since transcended any practical usage. I can see it being indefinitely sustained simply by gold rush mindset folk, while the only people actually making money from it are - quite predictably - the people who already know how to work the markets.
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Jan 23, 2018 12:09
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Durzel posted:Bitcoin is always likely to maintain this massive crash & recovery pattern, I can't see any reason why this would change. I think eventually people will learn... Plus eventually they will run out of coins and even though they say it will be fine... who knows... also drug people will continue to use crypto as long as they can
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Jan 23, 2018 12:13
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Alpha Mayo posted:So I've been trying to figure out how they do the "price fixing" and you are right, it is spoofing. I recorded a video of it just to see how it was being done, because I noticed the Bid order book numbers would effectively stay the same no matter what. If an order went through at the market bid price, a brand new order would be in its place the next tick, and all the Total numbers would inflate back up to their previous values, instead of being eaten away at like you'd expect. This isn't spoofing. What you're seeing are hidden buy orders, which are allowed by some exchanges (including both Bitfinex and GDAX). They're used by traders who don't want visible walls to spook buyers/sellers. Spoofing is when you have a visible wall that gets pulled or moved whenever an order gets near it because the order maker doesn't really want to buy/sell the coins, just move the price. This is illegal in most stock markets as it's blatant price manipulation, but in crypto it happens constantly. However, there isn't actually a way to guarantee that the order gets pulled, so sometimes you get some really hilarious results as a wall gets eaten in one bite before the spoofer can pull it. This is also why with the notable exception of Bitfinex it's rare to see this on BTC/USD and ETH/USD markets, where big orders and movements are common - walls like that are all over the alt markets and that's where most of the manipulation is. The BTC price is probably being propped up by Tether and definitely being manipulated all the time, but you aren't going to catch this by staring at one exchange's graphs for five minutes. It's much more subtle than this. the whole thing could easily pop at any moment now, but without a Tether implosion, look for a rally starting on the 26th
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Jan 23, 2018 12:17
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Dog Jones posted:I think eventually people will learn... Plus eventually they will run out of coins and even though they say it will be fine... who knows... also drug people will continue to use crypto as long as they can Practically the only thing that I think will make it collapse will be ever increasing regulation (or the threat thereof), which probably won't actually come from governments looking to avert another financial meltdown, but rather from them seeing a revenue stream that is currently untapped. Its lack of credibility as a currency matters not one jot anymore. As it is BTC - and to a lesser extent the other cryptos (since some of them actually seem to try to "fix" the currency problem, albeit its a solution no one except drug dealers and criminals has been looking for) - are entirely speculatively valued. I haven't touched the poop enough to know exactly why BTC jumped from ~$1000 to $10000 and beyond, but now that it has - and in such a short space of time - it's a very compelling investment opportunity for those people who are too stupid or impatient to invest correctly, with a diversified portfolio and a measured expectation of gains. Durzel fucked around with this message at 12:41 on Jan 23, 2018 |
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Jan 23, 2018 12:39
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There we go https://twitter.com/tetherprinter/status/955771909110562817
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Jan 23, 2018 12:59
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and the bitcoin price spikes above 10k again lol.
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Jan 23, 2018 13:06
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Tether has got to be the best bitcoin related scam yet.
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Jan 23, 2018 13:08
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Its time to pump crypto and chew bubble gum and I'm all outta gum.
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Jan 23, 2018 13:12
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Anyway here's an alternate explanation for Tether printing: https://twitter.com/ummjackson/status/955642994811576320 So basically, the options are 1)Bitfinex is running a massive money printing scam OR 2)all of the other exchanges EXCEPT Bitfinex are running the scam. I know you're wondering "why not both?" An excellent question that I will answer just as soon as
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Jan 23, 2018 13:13
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I would blow Dane Cook posted:Tether has got to be the best bitcoin related scam yet. Especially since most of the wailing after the Tetherpocalypse will be "Why didn't you print more Tethers?" rather than realising Tether helped make a bigger cliff for bitcoin to fall from.
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Jan 23, 2018 13:14
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It's amazing how dependable these guys are.
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Jan 23, 2018 13:18
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Adar posted:Anyway here's an alternate explanation for Tether printing: Must be 1 because we know that Bitfinex and tether are run by the same people.
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Jan 23, 2018 13:23
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I believe crypto is constantly testing us for our level of commitment, and crypto's greatest rewards are reserved for those who demonstrate a never-ending commitment to act until they achieve. This level of resolve can move mountains, but it must be constant and consistent. As simplistic as this may sound, HODLing is still the common denominator separating those who live their dreams from those who live in regret.
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Jan 23, 2018 13:25
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I don't think we're far off from these tweets moving the market on their own, when more people acknowledge more tether = numbers go up.
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Jan 23, 2018 13:31
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Jan 23, 2018 13:35
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