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Why is doing the right thing always so loving hard in business? They're asking you to lower the scores so they don't have to pay the employees anymore. I got dinged in a review in my old job because of "attendance". I had apparently missed 4 days in a year and HR didn't like that.
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Jan 24, 2018 17:08
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Vargatron posted:Why is doing the right thing always so loving hard in business? They're asking you to lower the scores so they don't have to pay the employees anymore. Well, raises and bonuses are completely arbitrary and don't really line up with reviews. So the stakes are just hey, I am not going to lie for you, regardless of whether or not everyone knows its a lie.
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Jan 24, 2018 17:08
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Internet Explorer posted:Man, this thread has got me down on being a manager in IT this morning. Not that I needed much help with that, but still. For what its worth. at my previous Job. I had an excellent mentor. He wasn't manager but he effectively managed the IT department to the point that the manager just let him handle the IT department. He was a great "manager". Helped me grow tremendously. edit: Vargatron posted:Why is doing the right thing always so loving hard in business? They're asking you to lower the scores so they don't have to pay the employees anymore. Wait, what, 4 days in a whole year? Our company is glad when someone has only been sick for 4 days in a year.
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Jan 24, 2018 17:09
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Every review at my last company my boss would show me my scores, say that she wasn't allowed to give me scores that high, and would then print out a new one with lower scores for me to sign
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Jan 24, 2018 17:10
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AlternateAccount posted:The only justification is that some of them rated themselves lower than I did, by a small fraction. Whose opinion matters more? We're going to penalize them for modesty? If it doesn't matter and everyone knows it's bullshit then maybe your boss should do their god drat job and push back. Either scrap the program or change it so that it does matter. That all sounds awful and I don't blame you for refusing to play ball. I don't think I would either. I don't think I'd even agree to deliver any handed down numbers, at least not if you're passing them off as your own. Alternatively, and this is only if this stuff really doesn't matter (for raises, promotions, retention, etc, which I doubt), then do whatever and take your entire team out for lunch/beers and tell them that the company forced you to give bad reviews or else they were going to fire you, and that you think they're all Tony the Tiger Great or something. Although obviously that could backfire if word got out, or it might frustrate your employees a bit, but at least you're being honest with them. If they decide that's enough bullshit for them to start looking for a new job, can't really say I'd blame them.
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Jan 24, 2018 17:11
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Sefal posted:For what its worth. at my previous Job. I had an excellent mentor. He wasn't manager but he effectively managed the IT department to the point that the manager just let him handle the IT department. I've been a "manager" pretty much my entire career and I really try to be a good one. Reading this stuff just reinforces how difficult it can be and makes me think of all the crap I've had to deal with.
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Jan 24, 2018 17:13
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Yeah, I'm with Internet Explorer. Honesty is the best policy. My previous boss did not give me what I wanted and never made any promises that he would. and told me explicitly what to expect and he wished he could say something else. but from day 1 until I left, he was always 100% honest. I really appreciated that.
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Jan 24, 2018 17:14
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Oh, further color: I was already yelled at for (legitimately accidentally) sending my completed reviews to my team before they'd been gone over and "level set" by upper management. And I've already explained that any forced edits they made will be explained as such and that my team will absolutely know the entire truth of the process regardless. I am disappointed in my boss(who's already confessed to editing some scores down) and his boss(who is the one I talked to) because yes, they should be leading the charge against this kind of absolute bullshit. You don't get to constantly, and rightfully, praise my team for being fantastic and all the things they accomplish on a very small staff, and then sandbag them at review time for NOTHING. It's not like they even want to pay them less, it's just to fit some completely loving arbitrary curve.
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Jan 24, 2018 17:16
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 it's almost as if score based review systems are flawed...My last boss also tried forcing me to agree to a 6 month stay in Germany and refused to give me details regarding this (I posted a lot about it). That's pretty much the reason I left the job, that and super high stress from working in Automotive.
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Jan 24, 2018 17:17
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Internet Explorer posted:If it doesn't matter and everyone knows it's bullshit then maybe your boss should do their god drat job and push back. Either scrap the program or change it so that it does matter. Honestly though if I knew I was doing a good job and got an average review, I'd be pissed enough to start looking for a new job that appreciated my work. If my boss told me the numbers were bullshit and showed me what he thinks I deserved, I would be more inclined to stay and show that boss some loyalty. The company sucks but the department is good, and that's cool by me.
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Jan 24, 2018 17:17
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Internet Explorer posted:Alternatively, and this is only if this stuff really doesn't matter (for raises, promotions, retention, etc, which I doubt), then do whatever and take your entire team out for lunch/beers and tell them that the company forced you to give bad reviews or else they were going to fire you, and that you think they're all Tony the Tiger Great or something. Although obviously that could backfire if word got out, or it might frustrate your employees a bit, but at least you're being honest with them. If they decide that's enough bullshit for them to start looking for a new job, can't really say I'd blame them. I would really value and appreciate a manager that does this for me, just saying. And I would not be ratting him/her out.
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Jan 24, 2018 17:18
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Judge Schnoopy posted:Honestly though if I knew I was doing a good job and got an average review, I'd be pissed enough to start looking for a new job that appreciated my work. Right, and that's like reason #1 why you don't want to arbitrarily lower scores on people. Not to mention the fact that it's micromanagement to the Nth degree and professionally insulting. A recurring part of my speech to management is that I'm a professional and I take pride in my work. One of the quickest ways to get me to leave is to attempt to force me to do something unprofessional or half-assed. Thankfully, I'm generally appreciated enough that that's usually enough to get them to back down, but I realize that's not every work environment and it is one of the reasons I prefer to work at smaller places.
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Jan 24, 2018 17:22
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I worked at a financial institution that tied raises to reviews through some crazy matrix that also took into account how long you've worked there. The upper management also sandbagged review scores to make sure raises weren't too high. I worked harder than most others in my department and brought some new and innovative ideas to IT, and received a review of 'average'. My raise was something like 2.1%. I immediately started looking for new jobs.
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Jan 24, 2018 17:37
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Judge Schnoopy posted:If my boss told me the numbers were bullshit and showed me what he thinks I deserved, I would be more inclined to stay and show that boss some loyalty. The company sucks but the department is good, and that's cool by me. This is probably where I will end up. But I will also be out the door here basically ASAP. I talked to my guy who'd be likely taking over for me. He lined up with hey, we don't want to lose you over this bullshit, so just eat it and stick around. My direct boss is also the NOT THE HILL TO DIE ON type. I don't think that he understands that even though he's transparent, there's a respect hit when I realize he'll participate and lower my review in this way. Even if it doesn't mean anything in terms of $$$.
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Jan 24, 2018 17:40
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CLAM DOWN posted:That's hosed.
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Jan 24, 2018 17:46
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What does that say about the company that the 'level set' is less than perfect? That they intentionally don't hire the best, that they don't provide the training and opportunity for employees to excel, and that the company isn't performing at its potential? And is it the employees or the managers who are responsible for the entire company performing at an 'average' level instead of being the best?
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Jan 24, 2018 17:53
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I lived through that sort of review and level set process for years. I never lost sleep over it so long as I was allowed to keep people in the right broad categories. That company had a 5-point scoring system, and I was told that the average for the team should be close to 3, so collapsed all my feedback into a narrow range so that my lowest performers were 3s and my high performers were around 3.4, and that was fine. The only time I really regretted it and swore I'd die on that hill next time was when I was told that my team was large enough that my worst person had to be rated below expectations, regardless of their actual performance level. I argued that given how many rounds of RIFs we'd been through by that point, the worst person on my nine-person team had once been the ninth-best performer out of at least 15 people, and was hardly below expectations. My sr mgr told me it didn't matter and that it wouldn't have any real impact anyway, so I went along with it... and then had to have performance counseling meetings with that employee, had their merit and bonus arbitrarily reduced, etc. In retrospect, yeah, I should have stuck to my guns and made the sr mgr do it herself, or give me a written order to do it in front of my HR rep. Then I could have at least told the affected employee that it wasn't my call and show them the written instruction. Edit: One of the things I was told when I pushed back was that someone might meet expectations one year but then fail to meet them, because expectations should go up every year. That was BS too. Expectations should go up when you promote someone, not when you stick them in the same title year after year with crappy raises that barely match COL.
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Jan 24, 2018 18:03
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I’m so glad I don’t have to deal with that poo poo. That’s why I have no plans to leave anytime soon even after I get the skills to move up a rung on the ladder. 25% raise an comparable benefits? Sure, but otherwise I’m here until management leaves. The way I look at it, you don’t work for the company. You work for your manager.
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Jan 24, 2018 18:05
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Judge Schnoopy posted:What does that say about the company that the 'level set' is less than perfect? That they intentionally don't hire the best, that they don't provide the training and opportunity for employees to excel, and that the company isn't performing at its potential? It has nothing to do with that and everything to do with keeping people under your thumb. Many people think that if you tell people they're not working hard enough, they're not doing good enough, they're not meeting expectations, that employees will then work harder and will also be easier to manipulate and less likely to speak out. Hell, I worked for a department where the CIO told the managers under him to find reasons to write people up. Like official poo poo, pulled into HR and everything. It was so transparent, you could watch it happening. "That way your employees fear and respect you, right now they walk all over you." The first time it happened to me, I put in my 2-weeks notice the next day. It's dumb and it's abusive, but it's commonplace. The idiots who follow that dogma don't realize that the majority of people don't respond well to that, especially skilled folks who have an ounce of self-respect. And all it does is filter out good employees, who find new jobs, and leave you with lovely employees who feel they have no other choice. Internet Explorer fucked around with this message at 18:10 on Jan 24, 2018 |
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Jan 24, 2018 18:06
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That's some awful stuff. Haven't had to deal with that, thankfully https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/employees-dont-leave-companies-managers-brigette-hyacinth/ edit: came across that article a little while back
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Jan 24, 2018 18:07
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Zorak of Michigan posted:I lived through that sort of review and level set process for years. I never lost sleep over it so long as I was allowed to keep people in the right broad categories. That company had a 5-point scoring system, and I was told that the average for the team should be close to 3, so collapsed all my feedback into a narrow range so that my lowest performers were 3s and my high performers were around 3.4, and that was fine. The only time I really regretted it and swore I'd die on that hill next time was when I was told that my team was large enough that my worst person had to be rated below expectations, regardless of their actual performance level. I argued that given how many rounds of RIFs we'd been through by that point, the worst person on my nine-person team had once been the ninth-best performer out of at least 15 people, and was hardly below expectations. My sr mgr told me it didn't matter and that it wouldn't have any real impact anyway, so I went along with it... and then had to have performance counseling meetings with that employee, had their merit and bonus arbitrarily reduced, etc. In retrospect, yeah, I should have stuck to my guns and made the sr mgr do it herself, or give me a written order to do it in front of my HR rep. Then I could have at least told the affected employee that it wasn't my call and show them the written instruction. What you're describing is stack ranking and it's loving stupid. http://www.businessinsider.com/stack-ranking-employees-is-a-bad-idea-2013-11
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Jan 24, 2018 18:09
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AlternateAccount posted:The only justification is that some of them rated themselves lower than I did, by a small fraction. Whose opinion matters more? We're going to penalize them for modesty? No you act as a moral being while the rest of them are shitheads. Bullshit like that is common and I have also gotten in trouble in the past by simply refusing to play the dumbass game. Like I don't care if it's just me, rate me 1s if you want as long as I get the salary I want, but no, I will not do that to my people. Only thing that happened is I didn't get any bonus or raise and I left the job in a couple months.
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Jan 24, 2018 18:11
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Internet Explorer posted:Hell, I worked for a department where the CIO told the managers under him to find reasons to write people up. Like official poo poo, pulled into HR and everything. It was so transparent, you could watch it happening. "That way your employees fear and respect you, right now they walk all over you." 
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Jan 24, 2018 18:18
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Sefal posted:That's some awful stuff. Haven't had to deal with that, thankfully quote:“I got a call my wife had been in a serious car accident. I told my boss I needed to leave immediately. He asked me to give him 10 more minutes. I was so disappointed because he could have covered for me. I come in early. I leave late. I hardly take any sick leave and that was the response I got from him? I looked at him and walked straight out the door. My relationship with my manager went south after that. I started planning my exit strategy and within 3 months, I quit." "My wife is possibly dead and you want 10 more minutes???"
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Jan 24, 2018 18:23
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Back in the eighties when I worked at a software store I received my first performance review. I got excellent scores in every category save one, and although I don't remember which category it was I was mad because it was inaccurate. Let's say it was "attendance," and I was never late or absent. I wanted a fair, honest grade for each category. I talked to the manager and he explained to me that the corporate world can't comprehend that an employee might be exceeding expectations in all areas. I needed at least one category where there was room for improvement. He slid the review down the counter to me and said "You can pick any category you like to be the one that needs improvement, but you have to have at least one." I was young and idealistic and although I appreciated that the manager tried to bring me inside the process I was offended by the dishonesty of the whole thing. It was a charade of objectivity. That sense of right and wrong has never left me, which has contributed greatly to my suffering in the workplace. I did slowly learn to try and pick my fights, but I also learned that almost everything can become a fight if you have a bad manager, or bad corporate leadership. You're either in, or you're out. Looking back I can't see myself going the other way, giving myself over the the stupidity of work, which is just an extension of the stupidity of life. I would not be much happier, or more successful.
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Jan 24, 2018 18:28
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It's like loving up the curve in college class. You should never perform to the best of your abilities because it makes the people around you look bad in comparison. That's what's wrong with the corporate world these days (or maybe since forever idk).
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Jan 24, 2018 18:36
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Vargatron posted:"My wife is possibly dead and you want 10 more minutes???" wtf At the end of the day, this is just a job. A lot of people in this industry, like DAF and others like him that I know, get so loving obsessed and consumed by tech and their job or company, and prioritize it above all else. Just....don't. Keep some perspective. Your health, happiness, self-esteem, relationships, everything is more important than work. gently caress managers (or anyone) who don't get this.
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Jan 24, 2018 18:37
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People ask me how I could be working at the same place for 15 years while I know I could get paid more elsewhere. It basically comes down to my manager. He is awesome. He fights for his people and deals with the politics so we don't have to. Listening to some of the stories above, man I am glad he is my boss.
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Jan 24, 2018 18:40
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Dick Trauma posted:That sense of right and wrong has never left me, which has contributed greatly to my suffering in the workplace. I did slowly learn to try and pick my fights, but I also learned that almost everything can become a fight if you have a bad manager, or bad corporate leadership. You're either in, or you're out. Yeah I had to learn this the hard way too. World is a gently caress smash our authoritarian system in the work place  management is just another job and bad managers should be as accountable to employees as bad employees should be accountable to managers but welp, it don't work that way and you need to buy groceries.if you have a bad manager and/or toxic corporate culture you should probably just go somewhere else where it is at least tolerable since you have no real agency to change it most of the time
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Jan 24, 2018 18:41
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One issue is that your health is also often tied directly to your work. The decision to walk away if you don't have something lined up is not a luxury most people have.
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Jan 24, 2018 18:41
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bull3964 posted:One issue is that your health is also often tied directly to your work. Oh most assuredly do not walk away. Don't even tell them you are looking until the offer is lined up and you give notice.
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Jan 24, 2018 18:42
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Dick Trauma posted:Looking back I can't see myself going the other way, giving myself over the the stupidity of work, which is just an extension of the stupidity of life. I would not be much happier, or more successful. Just wanted to say that I really appreciated this post. I know people give you a lot of poo poo, but you often offer a different point of view that I appreciate.
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Jan 24, 2018 18:48
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GreenNight posted:People ask me how I could be working at the same place for 15 years while I know I could get paid more elsewhere. It basically comes down to my manager. He is awesome. He fights for his people and deals with the politics so we don't have to. Listening to some of the stories above, man I am glad he is my boss. I had to stop myself from yelling at a client when I worked for an MSP as my last job. She (self-employed/"CEO" who did ???? but was still filthy rich) was bemoaning to me and her personal assistant how everybody my age just wanted to be the CEO and not have to work our way up and all the other usual bullshit. The kicker to all of this is that I had actually already worked for her at my job before that (retail tech support) and she didn't remember me at all. gently caress that, I have no interest in being the CEO of anything for any reason aside from it would be great to not have to worry about money for the rest of my life. I want to work at the same place until I retire (lol at even having enough money to do this), the idea of having to change jobs to get a raise or promotion loving sucks and I dunno how people tricked my generation/themselves into thinking everybody loves it.
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Jan 24, 2018 18:54
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Inspector_666 posted:I dunno how people tricked my generation/themselves into thinking everybody loves it. I don't think anyone loves it, it's just old people telling themselves that others do so they don't have to feel bad about loving others over. No one likes job insecurity or being forced into wage stagnation that means you effectively earn less every year due to inflation unless you are willing to pick up and go somewhere else every few years.
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Jan 24, 2018 19:22
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Internet Explorer posted:What you're describing is stack ranking and it's loving stupid. Yeah, they implemented something like that in college with project groups for some reason, I rated everyone the same because save for absolute fuckery/total absence there was no need to hang people out to dry. Of course my scores were put in earnestly by my fellows and they were so all over the place that they said more about the things the person deemed important than about my performance.
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Jan 24, 2018 19:24
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Nuclearmonkee posted:I don't think anyone loves it, it's just old people telling themselves that others do so they don't have to feel bad about loving others over. No one likes job insecurity or being forced into wage stagnation that means you effectively earn less every year due to inflation unless you are willing to pick up and go somewhere else every few years. Old people don't like it either, they're constantly bitching about how young people can't 'stick it out' like they did for 20 years with the same company. But they're also not willing to pay enough for a single family income to afford a stand-alone house like their generation was afforded, and when confronted with that will argue that young people aren't working hard enough.
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Jan 24, 2018 19:27
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Had a recruiter interview insist on salary history and stuck to my guns with not disclosing and made my case that it doesn’t matter. They probably won’t move forward with me but oh well it’s nice to have a backbone.
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Jan 24, 2018 19:27
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Judge Schnoopy posted:Old people don't like it either, they're constantly bitching about how young people can't 'stick it out' like they did for 20 years with the same company. By old people, I specifically mean "the old people at the top of the chain who benefit from the policy of loving everyone". Senior management and executives are usually olds. It's just gently caress you got mine all the way down
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Jan 24, 2018 19:27
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Hey guys. !!!
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Jan 24, 2018 19:29
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SamDabbers posted:Hey guys. OHHHHH poo poo 
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Jan 24, 2018 19:31
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