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exploded mummy posted:even if Paterno arguably had more actual power over matters because he essentially was God to everyone in the state other than Pitt alumni at that point.
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Jan 25, 2018 17:36
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I mean Jesus, could we start with No adult should be alone with a child at any point, yes even doctors. And in the case of doctors, there should always be two. Always at least one female. And I know that's not gonna solve every problem ever but again, it should be rule #1.
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Jan 25, 2018 17:38
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Mahoning posted:I mean Jesus, could we start with No adult should be alone with a child at any point, yes even doctors. I have a coaching certification through a USA Olympic program, and part of that is completing their "Safe Sport" training, which is designed to make sure coaches know how to avoid situations were you can abuse athletes. Of course, it's comically bad and all it really does is show how easy it would be to do so. A lot of it focuses on never being alone with your athletes. But a nefarious actor could easily use it as a training program for how to avoid detection.
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Jan 25, 2018 17:42
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Mahoning posted:I mean Jesus, could we start with No adult should be alone with a child at any point, yes even doctors. he abused some of the children with their parents in the room like i get your second point but he abused some of the children with their parents in the room
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Jan 25, 2018 17:43
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stone cold posted:he abused some of the children with their parents in the room Yes, thank you, I know. It's why I made my second point. It's also why I made my third point. Larry Nassar perfected his abuse because he was allowed unfettered access to young female gymnasts for years. I highly doubt he would have ever gotten the confidence to do this with a parent in the room if he hadn't had those years of perfecting his abuse. Nor would he if there were always a female doctor in the room. And again, let me reiterate my third point again: I know that's not gonna solve every problem ever but again, it should be rule #1. And beyond that, it should be enforced HEAVILY.
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Jan 25, 2018 17:49
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Mahoning posted:I mean Jesus, could we start with No adult should be alone with a child at any point, yes even doctors. As a doctor myself I would change that last part to 'especially doctors'. Most of the time people don't know their doctor personally, and as this case evidences doctors have a whole raft of plausible excuses for doing things that would be barn-door abuse in any other circumstance. And considering having a chaperone protects us from false accusations just as much as it protects the patient, there's really no reason not to routinely use chaperones. The chaperone shouldn't be the parent either. From the patients perspective they might not know what they should be looking for, and from the doctors perspective they aren't necessarily an objective witness.
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Jan 25, 2018 17:52
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Mahoning posted:Yes, thank you, I know. It's why I made my second point. It's also why I made my third point. Larry Nassar perfected his abuse because he was allowed unfettered access to young female gymnasts for years. I highly doubt he would have ever gotten the confidence to do this with a parent in the room if he hadn't had those years of perfecting his abuse. i mean the fix beyond that is rooting out predators and burning down the patriarchy beyond the sexual abuse in medicine, women receive substandard medical care because of the gender bias, so we need some deep institutional reform beyond “let’s make two doctors do all the rounds and one of them has to be a woman” e: a big part of the problem is that from the time we are small girls, we are told by society and by doctors that our discomfort is in our head that’s a big thing for a sexual predator to be able to take advantage of
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Jan 25, 2018 17:54
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jabby posted:As a doctor myself I would change that last part to 'especially doctors'. Most of the time people don't know their doctor personally, and as this case evidences doctors have a whole raft of plausible excuses for doing things that would be barn-door abuse in any other circumstance. And considering having a chaperone protects us from false accusations just as much as it protects the patient, there's really no reason not to routinely use chaperones. What do you think would be a good source for chaperones? Obviously random people off the street a lot of patients aren't going to be comfortable with, and other doctors might create a conflict of interest. Perhaps nurses?
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Jan 25, 2018 18:02
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Bird in a Blender posted:Either they knew and covered it up, or they had a doctor under their employ for like a decade and did zero oversight in order to make sure there was no abuse. Either way, they failed to do their job of protecting the children in their care. Excellent points. As I argued up-thread, the best solution to this kind of thing is to frog-walk a few senior folks (vs. ending college/olympic sports, as some here seem to advocate). AFAIK, the best chance of a high-profile arrest under current law is to find proof someone knew about the abuse and then actively tried to prevent that info from getting out. Barring that, I'm not sure if rule-of-law allows much... "failure to adequately monitor" is more of a civil standard outside of a few special cases (e.g., legal guardian for an incompetent). "Failure to call the police" is normally iffy for even civil liability, much less criminal liability.
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Jan 25, 2018 18:10
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gaj70 posted:Excellent points. As I argued up-thread, the best solution to this kind of thing is to frog-walk a few senior folks (vs. ending college/olympic sports, as some here seem to advocate). AFAIK, the best chance of a high-profile arrest under current law is to find proof someone knew about the abuse and then actively tried to prevent that info from getting out. Barring that, I'm not sure if rule-of-law allows much... "failure to adequately monitor" is more of a civil standard outside of a few special cases (e.g., legal guardian for an incompetent). "Failure to call the police" is normally iffy for even civil liability, much less criminal liability. counterpoint: burn down the institution
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Jan 25, 2018 18:11
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OwlFancier posted:What do you think would be a good source for chaperones? Obviously random people off the street a lot of patients aren't going to be comfortable with, and other doctors might create a conflict of interest. Perhaps nurses? For adults when we do intimate procedures we typically use nurses. It's not ideal, because obviously they're another healthcare professional and might have a relationship with the doctor, but we're a bit limited by practicality. With children you'd typically have the doctor, a nurse to chaperone, and a parent observing. That's a bit more balanced because at least both doctor and patient have someone present who you might expect to be more naturally inclined towards their 'side'. Being honest, unless someone invents a totally objective human being you're never going to have perfection. But the simple act of putting someone else in the room who knows what to look for would dramatically limit the potential for abuse to take place.
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Jan 25, 2018 18:12
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What do you do if the kid is uncomfortable having other people observing? I know I would have been really really not OK with that when I was young. Frankly I'm not exactly comfortable with it as an adult either though I understand the necessity of it.
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Jan 25, 2018 18:15
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GobiasIndustries posted:Rachael Denhollander (the first woman to publically accuse Nassar of sexual assault) was the last woman to speak at the sentencing. She's a loving hero. Thanks for posting this. This is a speech everyone needs to listen to. happyhippy fucked around with this message at 18:52 on Jan 25, 2018 |
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Jan 25, 2018 18:20
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OwlFancier posted:What do you do if the kid is uncomfortable having other people observing? I know I would have been really really not OK with that when I was young. Frankly I'm not exactly comfortable with it as an adult either though I understand the necessity of it. It all depends on what the doctor, patient, and parents are comfortable with. Any party can insist on having a chaperone and stop the exam/procedure going ahead without one. With kids the minimum level of supervision most doctors would accept would be one other person, either a parent or a nurse, who stands somewhere they don't actually see the patients genitals. As this case shows that's not exactly 100% safe for either doctor or patient, but you do have to take patient wishes into account.
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Jan 25, 2018 18:31
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That seems fair, that's what I got when I was in pediatrics as a patient. It is as you say, difficult. I guess that's impetus to try and attack the issue in other ways, changing attitudes to make reporting more reliable and putting more material power in the hands of potential victims.
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Jan 25, 2018 18:35
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Somewhat related (was posted in the Trump thread): https://twitter.com/JustinElliott/status/956501445238493184
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Jan 25, 2018 18:35
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Well patient discomfort is a symptom of the larger issue here, isn't it? Teen girls' discomfort with their own bodies and the inability to talk about sexual matters is one of the very things Larry Nassar preyed on. Some of the girls who gave impact statement flatly stated that they were too embarrassed to talk to their parents about it and Nassar knew that.
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Jan 25, 2018 18:37
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jabby posted:It all depends on what the doctor, patient, and parents are comfortable with. Any party can insist on having a chaperone and stop the exam/procedure going ahead without one. This brings back to memory a story I heard. Apparently, a paediatrician administered a rectal exam to "check for abuse" without the parent in the room, using the explanation that it might be one of the parents who is involved in any abuse. I don't believe there had been any accusations of such. That's, like, 100% bullshit and the doctor was actually a predator, right? At the time (I was in high school, and it was our health teacher relating this story -- as a legitimate "procedure") it struck me as very odd, but not definitely abuse, because doctors would never do that, right? That's how stuff like this can happen, I guess.
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Jan 25, 2018 18:40
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Mahoning posted:Well patient discomfort is a symptom of the larger issue here, isn't it? Teen girls' discomfort with their own bodies and the inability to talk about sexual matters is one of the very things Larry Nassar preyed on. Some of the girls who gave impact statement flatly stated that they were too embarrassed to talk to their parents about it and Nassar knew that. yes, that’s a thing i literally said to you which is why we must start burning down the patriarchy yesterday to reiterate, there’s also the issue of society and doctors telling us from the time we are small girls that our discomfort is entirely in our heads and it is more important for us not to bother people than is is to relieve our discomfort
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Jan 25, 2018 18:40
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PT6A posted:This brings back to memory a story I heard. Apparently, a paediatrician administered a rectal exam to "check for abuse" without the parent in the room, using the explanation that it might be one of the parents who is involved in any abuse. I don't believe there had been any accusations of such. That might depend on context. Like, I know a (female) pediatrician whose job it is to do those kinds of examinations. She works at a state run clinic and kids are brought there after reports are made to law enforcement etc. Sometimes the parents bring the kids. Sometimes the parents are the alleged perp. Sometimes the parents are sheltering the perp. Sometimes the cops put the kids in emergency protective custody right there in the waiting room.
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Jan 25, 2018 18:45
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Mahoning posted:Well patient discomfort is a symptom of the larger issue here, isn't it? Teen girls' discomfort with their own bodies and the inability to talk about sexual matters is one of the very things Larry Nassar preyed on. Some of the girls who gave impact statement flatly stated that they were too embarrassed to talk to their parents about it and Nassar knew that. Well, I mean, I don't know if that's necessarily the reason for discomfort, if you regard your body as being very personal to you it's not something you want to share with random people. I'm not uncomfortable with my body but I definitely, especially as a kid felt that it was very much my own business and not something I wanted people prying into unless I trusted them. It's not necessarily a sign of discomfort or body dysphoria as much as it can be an indication that people feel a strong sense of possession about something that really definitely should be theirs, hence the quandary in respecting that. You can essentially be telling people that no, their sense of bodily ownership is subordinate to other people, and that's something I'm not sure I think is good to encourage? Of course you could have reasons for being uncomfortable with intimacy that are also harmful to you, but the long term solution to that I think has to be preventing those feelings from forming. So, yeah smash the patriarchy basically. I dunno, gently caress it's a difficult thing to put your mind into. PT6A posted:This brings back to memory a story I heard. Apparently, a paediatrician administered a rectal exam to "check for abuse" without the parent in the room, using the explanation that it might be one of the parents who is involved in any abuse. I don't believe there had been any accusations of such. Unless I'm misremembering, statistically the abuser is likely to be someone in a position of authority and quite possibly a parent or close relative, so as a blind assumption is'a honestly quite reasonable. Most parents aren't abusers, but a distressing proportion of abusers are parents. OwlFancier fucked around with this message at 18:51 on Jan 25, 2018 |
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Jan 25, 2018 18:47
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Bird in a Blender posted:Either they knew and covered it up, or they had a doctor under their employ for like a decade and did zero oversight in order to make sure there was no abuse. Either way, they failed to do their job of protecting the children in their care. The one incident where it was documented Paterno definitely knew about it and passed the buck up the chain was the MvQueary case. MvQueary was a graduate student assistant coach, who saw Sandusky and a kid in the shower and heard rhythmic slapping sounds. He didn't directly witness any sexual act. He freaked out and called his father, who then he talked to a family friend that was a mandatory reporter and was told he didn't have to talk to the police and should talk to Paterno. Paterno then talked to Curley and Schultz, who in turn went to Spanier who kind of kiboshed the entire thing from going to the police. The police had been called on Sandusky a couple of times by this point as well not that it mattered much to him.
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Jan 25, 2018 18:56
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PT6A posted:This brings back to memory a story I heard. Apparently, a paediatrician administered a rectal exam to "check for abuse" without the parent in the room, using the explanation that it might be one of the parents who is involved in any abuse. I don't believe there had been any accusations of such. Was the parent informed? Legally unless the child has capacity the parents need to consent on their behalf to any examination or procedure, including something like a rectal exam. There are situations where you might examine or question a child without parents present, but that doesn't mean you wouldn't keep them informed and get someone else to chaperone. There would also need to be justified suspicions of abuse before proceeding to a physical exam, and by that point other people should definitely be involved in the process. It's definitely not something you would just do in a clinic room off your own bat having just met a child, that would certainly be abuse. jabby fucked around with this message at 19:13 on Jan 25, 2018 |
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Jan 25, 2018 19:11
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stone cold posted:a cool and good comment to make to these white women My statement had nothing to do with the victims, because they aren't the ones in power. MSU's president was a white woman. You would think that she would have taken a more active role over a man, especially given that it sounds like she knew more than enough to take action, but nope. seiferguy fucked around with this message at 22:09 on Jan 25, 2018 |
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Jan 25, 2018 22:06
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happyhippy posted:Thanks for posting this. Yeah the whole thing is really good and important viewing (all of the testimonies are but I can't watch too many of them in a row). My favorite part was ~25 minutes in when she takes a couple minutes to give a huge 'gently caress you' to Nassar's lawyer and then the lawyer gets slapped down by the judge (and everyone in the court room  ) when she objects.
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Jan 25, 2018 22:10
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PT6A posted:This brings back to memory a story I heard. Apparently, a paediatrician administered a rectal exam to "check for abuse" without the parent in the room, using the explanation that it might be one of the parents who is involved in any abuse. I don't believe there had been any accusations of such. When the Nassar case first came to light, it jogged a memory from years ago of a teammate making an off-hand comment about how weird it is that once you are in high school doctors need to do a rectal exam during your physical (that's what his doc had told him). Everyone thought it was kinda weird and told him that had not been the case for them, but we were dumb kids and I never remember anyone saying another word about it.
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Jan 26, 2018 00:09
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GobiasIndustries posted:Yeah the whole thing is really good and important viewing (all of the testimonies are but I can't watch too many of them in a row). My favorite part was ~25 minutes in when she takes a couple minutes to give a huge 'gently caress you' to Nassar's lawyer and then the lawyer gets slapped down by the judge (and everyone in the court room To be fair going after his lawyer is a bit harsh. She's legally obliged to do her best to defend him, and he's legally entitled to defence. What would our justice system be like if lawyers refused to defend people they thought were guilty? Seth Galifianakis posted:When the Nassar case first came to light, it jogged a memory from years ago of a teammate making an off-hand comment about how weird it is that once you are in high school doctors need to do a rectal exam during your physical (that's what his doc had told him). Everyone thought it was kinda weird and told him that had not been the case for them, but we were dumb kids and I never remember anyone saying another word about it. This is why there needs to be a solid middle ground between patients saying nothing and making a full blown accusation of abuse. Someone for them to go to when they aren't sure that something inappropriate happened, but they were made to feel uncomfortable and they want an explanation. Ideally an independent professional who could sit down and examine the facts, talk to the doctor and patient in a non-judgemental way and come to a decision about what happened. Too often if people have a concern the first thing they will be asked is 'are you accusing the doctor of something?', which is a horrible defensive reaction that implies dire consequences if they carry on down this path. Sometimes people genuinely need help separating proper medical treatment from abuse.
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Jan 26, 2018 00:59
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jabby posted:To be fair going after his lawyer is a bit harsh. She's legally obliged to do her best to defend him, and he's legally entitled to defence. What would our justice system be like if lawyers refused to defend people they thought were guilty? Don't disagree, but if what she said is true (and I have no reason to doubt it was) then I don't see anything out of line with it. Rachael's character was smeared all over the place and his lawyer was doing exactly what she was accusing Rachael of doing, I'm all in favor of setting the record straight.
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Jan 26, 2018 01:11
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Jan 26, 2018 01:22
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https://twitter.com/RyanSchuiling/status/956672263335628801
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Jan 26, 2018 03:51
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Burn the entire loving thing down, literally, with all the administration inside. Is there even a procedure to simply dissolve a university and use the assets to make something that isn't a toxic shithole run by people who are headed to the deepest circles of hell? We should develop one.
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Jan 26, 2018 05:16
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Good https://twitter.com/byajperez/status/956733005019729921
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Jan 26, 2018 05:19
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I'm excited to see Michigan State's expulsion from the Big Ten, to give that spot to Notre Dame, only to have Notre Dame get immediately expelled for maybe Grand Valley State?
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Jan 26, 2018 05:59
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Could always just make the Big 10 10 again. Isn’t it up to 12 now or something?
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Jan 26, 2018 06:08
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AsInHowe posted:I'm excited to see Michigan State's expulsion from the Big Ten, to give that spot to Notre Dame, only to have Notre Dame get immediately expelled for maybe Grand Valley State? gently caress it, go Lakers! Oracle posted:Could always just make the Big 10 10 again. Isn’t it up to 12 now or something? 14
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Jan 26, 2018 06:17
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Good. Just like the MSU President, they need to file charges next.
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Jan 26, 2018 06:46
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https://mobile.twitter.com/A2Jess/status/956364868659097600 gently caress YOU, LOU ANNA SIMON.
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Jan 26, 2018 07:20
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AsInHowe posted:https://mobile.twitter.com/A2Jess/status/956364868659097600 Yeah there were a billion ways she could have handled this situation and she did so in the worst possible one outside of, I dunno, getting dragged out kicking and screaming? gently caress her, glad to see she's gone, her handling of this situation has been beyond irresponsible.
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Jan 26, 2018 07:23
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https://www.freep.com/story/opinion/contributors/2018/01/25/lou-anna-simon-resignation-letter-msu/1067001001/ The Free Press had a PR professional give the Fire Joe Morgan treatment to Lou Anna's letter. Very professional throughout the whole thing, but the conclusion is a masterpiece. AsInHowe fucked around with this message at 07:34 on Jan 26, 2018 |
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Jan 26, 2018 07:30
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