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Should I not only be recruiting spear skellies as tomb kings? I just always figured the better defensive stats are more useful on a unit I expect to die. Is there some point to the sword infantry?
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Jan 26, 2018 18:32
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Trujillo posted:If you use the necrotect you get from the rites you can colonize a ruin with him and it starts at level 3. Lol where is this made plain to the player?
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Jan 26, 2018 18:44
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Arglebargle III posted:Lol where is this made plain to the player? In the Rites screen where it says that it does exactly that...?
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Jan 26, 2018 18:48
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Arglebargle III posted:Lol where is this made plain to the player? "A unique hero (Ptra's Necrotect), capable of colonizing ruins at settlement level III, will be summoned to your capital." In the screen where you cast rites
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Jan 26, 2018 18:48
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Is that guy a one-off, or does he just keep on ptra necrotecting?
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Jan 26, 2018 19:01
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Soup du Journey posted:Is that guy a one-off, or does he just keep on ptra necrotecting? He dies upon settling a ruin, and I think there's a 25 turn cooldown between summons
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Jan 26, 2018 19:02
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Soup du Journey posted:Is that guy a one-off, or does he just keep on ptra necrotecting? He dies when you use him. You can summon a new one once the ritual coolsdown, of course.
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Jan 26, 2018 19:02
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Captain Oblivious posted:In the Rites screen where it says that it does exactly that...? And this requires reading?!
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Jan 26, 2018 19:04
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DeadFatDuckFat posted:What if skeleton infantry were given/had a tech that let them have perfect vigour? That way, with heals, the longer a battle went on the more valuable they'd get as everyone else was tired and they'd still be able to heal and resurrect. They'd still have poo poo stats so they could get crushed to dust early on in a battle. Too OP? Maybe make it an end of the line lord upgrade? This would probably be ~*lore friendly*~ for skeltal kings cause they're just guys who happen to be boney and not, like, corpses reanimated by a gross old man tittering behind the lines. How does fatigue work, anyway? Are the penalties for the different levels stacking, or do they overwrite each other? Or maybe instead of perfect vigor, that one healing passive from lore of nehekhara could give -fatigue. That's a trivial thing to mod (and while I'm on this topic, can anyone tell me which data.pak subdirectory governs the size of aura radii?)
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Jan 26, 2018 19:11
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Jeremor posted:Should I not only be recruiting spear skellies as tomb kings? I just always figured the better defensive stats are more useful on a unit I expect to die. Is there some point to the sword infantry? I was thinking the same thing. The spear versions have better melee defense, combined with the lords red skill gets them up to not-horrible melee defense.
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Jan 26, 2018 19:13
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Is there any videos showing off how to succeed as Tomb Kings in the early game because I just don't get it. Skeleton Horsemen can't compete with anything and can actually be beaten by some archer units on their own. Chariots have no mass and can't disengage and will melt as soon as their charge bonus wears off if you can't get them out of combat. They also get massacred by any Cav unit, which they are also slower than. Carrion are actually worse than Harpies, which I didn't think was possible. Hell, Harpies can almost 1v2 against Carrion. The first infantry you get out of the barracks (can't remember how to spell the name properly, starts with an N) will 1v1 a lot of stuff, but you get 2 per Barracks so it's going to be a while before you can both afford to build up the unit cap and get a second army you can stock with meat shields so your killing infantry doesn't die in it's first fight. So far the only success I've had in the early game is exploiting the AI to come out of it's defenses to fight me on a favorable map and hope I can get the right combination of losses to make rebuilding in one or two turns feasible before they have a chance to recruit up and heal as well. Once you get your second army from research and fill it up with fodder it isn't so much of a problem thanks to sheer numbers, but sitting on your rear end for 20 turns is just annoying and not fun.
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Jan 26, 2018 19:14
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By the way, do vampire counts actually run the most moral realm in the setting, seeing as how they typically have no more than a handful of sentient beings in their armies, with the rest being walking piles of garbage (sorry grandma...) that someone dumped behind the village? I mean I guess a small number of maidens are gonna get sucked dry, and there's a ghost in the woods, and the land is sour, but all that seems like a small price to pay to not have to fight in eternal hellwars against an array of just the very worst things in existence (and outside of it)
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Jan 26, 2018 19:20
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Don't be afraid to raze settlements you don't think you can adequately defend for 5 or so turns. You can always come back and colonize them later, or exploit the AI colonizing it and wipe out their stack. TK are also decent with ambushes and if you proc one it allows you to charge the enemy from both the front and back to completely surround them. Always make sure all your skeletons are engaged so they all benefit from the heal.
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Jan 26, 2018 19:22
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Sylvannia is kind of a hellhole under them because it's trying to feed a bunch of vampiric aristocrats on a land blighted with warpstone and quaint eastern European peasant villages. Also, in the fluff, the Sylvannian living are still expected to fight for their lords, just giving them a bunch of human troops would be sort of breaking theme.
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Jan 26, 2018 19:22
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Night10194 posted:Sylvannia is kind of a hellhole under them because it's trying to feed a bunch of vampiric aristocrats on a land blighted with warpstone and quaint eastern European peasant villages. Vampire Longshanks: "Skeletons cost Dark Magic. Send in the conscripts, the living cost nothing."
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Jan 26, 2018 19:26
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Also the people of Sylvannia are noted for a gallows outlook on life and insane levels of fatalism. They just don't give that much of a poo poo what happens anymore; the Stirlanders who came in to rule them after Vlad were massive pieces of poo poo who hated being given such poor lands, Vlad's kids have all turned out to be whiney disappointments or lunatics, and they assume their lives are just destined to suck forever.
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Jan 26, 2018 19:29
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Yeah most moral would be like Tomb Kings (there are a tiny fraction of living humans still in their lands that they protect, most of their army is barely sapient skeletons/constructs), and High Elves (All volunteer army, kind of dicks but generally helpful to humans/dwarves) Then probably the Empire/Dwarves who practice conscription. And Lizardmen who are just sort of born in a rigid caste system and genuinely have a really alien outlook. Then you have all the factions that enslave/actively oppress their serfs like VC, Brettonia, Chaos, Beastmen, Wood Elves, Dark Elves, and Skaven.
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Jan 26, 2018 19:32
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I don't know poo poo about Offical Warhammer Lore, but all the vampire building descriptions make it sound like the absolute most awful place to be, and the pop-up description you get for taking vampire attrition makes it sound like the land itself is so cursed and awful you get sick just for being there.
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Jan 26, 2018 19:34
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Zore posted:Yeah most moral would be like Tomb Kings (there are a tiny fraction of living humans still in their lands that they protect, most of their army is barely sapient skeletons/constructs), and High Elves (All volunteer army, kind of dicks but generally helpful to humans/dwarves) Wood Elves don't oppress their people, just others Mzbundifund posted:I don't know poo poo about Offical Warhammer Lore, but all the vampire building descriptions make it sound like the absolute most awful place to be, and the pop-up description you get for taking vampire attrition makes it sound like the land itself is so cursed and awful you get sick just for being there. The older editions were more ambiguous about things. 8th Edition is more GRIM DARK and that is what TWWH is based on
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Jan 26, 2018 19:35
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Rygar201 posted:Wood Elves don't oppress their people, just others Yeah, but they do take slaves and poo poo. There's a reason Brettonia only has female magic users. Other than that they're on the more moral end of the spectrum just being wild isolationists with the majority of their army being volunteers.
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Jan 26, 2018 19:35
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Zore posted:Yeah, but they do take slaves and poo poo. There's a reason Brettonia only has female magic users. Yeah I know. That is why I said exactly what I said.
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Jan 26, 2018 19:36
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I think playing TK in the campaign requires a radically different mindset than playing most races (except for maybe Skaven). Yes - your basic skellymans are absolute garbage. But losing units as TK costs you nothing but time. If those basic skellys/units that can be recruited in one turn die instead of your Tier 2 units when you win a battle, you've come out ahead. In fact, your basic skellys are probably the game's best pincushions for enemy ranged units - you have a fuckton of them so they take time to go through, they all have silver shields which means they have better than even odds of shrugging off most ranged fire, and they're eminently replaceable. They're skavenslaves minus the speed, but with the added bonus of never cutting and running. Yes, they can't hold a line for very long. But they don't really need to - your archers will go to town on your enemy line, your chariots will flank and roll through them, and Nehekhara Warriors do very, very well when they flanking an enemy. Use them like skavenslaves - they're there to hold the enemy in place and take the hits that would otherwise go towards your better units. I know a lot of people like rushing blue line to Lightning Strike immediately, but as Settra I would rush red line to skelly buffs. Not only will it give your basic skeletons some added staying power (through actual armor, melee defense, melee attack, and adding more leadership to Settra's already giant leadership aura), but it will also buff all of your other skeleton infantry so that they're even more effective once you start phasing out the basic skele-mans. Early game as TK can be rough, but rushing Savage Orcs at the beginning of the Vortex campaign as Settra can give you two provinces (2 capitals, 3 settlements) within the first 10-20 turns, which is enough for you to buff your initial stack and create a second stack with more archers and additional support. Two stacks is more than enough to take out the other pretenders and take back more provinces/settlements from their seditious control, after which you should have enough capitals and settlements to get the bone-train rolling with zero brakes.
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Jan 26, 2018 19:38
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Plus Athel Loren is just kind of a hellscape mindfuck even if you are a Wood Elf. Its not a great place to live and it has a habit of twisting those who live there pretty bad. Just look at Orion.
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Jan 26, 2018 19:38
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Rygar201 posted:The older editions were more ambiguous about things. 8th Edition is more GRIM DARK and that is what TWWH is based on Wasn't one of the jokes of the older edition that, for an average person, living under vampire lords wasn't particularly worse and in some cases better than a living sovereign?
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Jan 26, 2018 19:46
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Tomb kings should get all the generic Skelton units without buildings or limits. Hosreman, warriors, spearman, and archers. That way, they can always have well rounded, but lovely, army.
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Jan 26, 2018 19:47
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I dont know posted:Wasn't one of the jokes of the older edition that, for an average person, living under vampire lords wasn't particularly worse and in some cases better than a living sovereign? The Stirlanders were such dicks that when Mannfred showed up the people of Sylvannia threw him and his a party, because as much as they'd have brutal uncaring lords who killed them for sport, at least the taxes were lower under vampires.
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Jan 26, 2018 19:49
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Living in one of the Wood Elf realms of wild partying is probably pretty decent, or one of the inner kingdoms of Ulthuan where life is like Children of Men (the boring book version). Being a common citizen in Marienburg, Altdorf or Nuln is probably as good as it gets for the average human or Dwarf. Possibly the more prosperous cities of Araby, Tilea and Estalia too, but there's very little fluff about to drive this argument. Oh, and being a Skink in one of the more isolated and safe temple cities is probably a pretty comfy life.
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Jan 26, 2018 19:50
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Life in the Empire is probably much like life in any other early-modern, European state, just with a bit more religious tolerance and a bit more horrifying warp monstrosities appearing and wreaking havoc at any given time and the occasional civilization-threatening hellwar.
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Jan 26, 2018 20:06
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Also you actually get plundered by wandering mercenary bands a little bit less than the real world because those people are busy fighting hellvikings and the state is actually a fair bit more stable and functional.
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Jan 26, 2018 20:07
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LuiCypher posted:But losing units as TK costs you nothing but time. This is less different from other factions than you suggest. Recruitment costs are usually about 5 turns of maintenance cost. Replacing an entire army of 20 units costs around 5 turns of maintaining that army, depending on how fast you recruit. Arglebargle III fucked around with this message at 20:10 on Jan 26, 2018 |
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Jan 26, 2018 20:08
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But oth you're not having to decide to delet half your fullstack because you're in a tight spot and need to invest in some buildings.
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Jan 26, 2018 20:09
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I dont know posted:Wasn't one of the jokes of the older edition that, for an average person, living under vampire lords wasn't particularly worse and in some cases better than a living sovereign? Yes, this was one of the jokes Also the 6th Ed Tomb Kings were a lot less "Kill the living for we hate and envy them" than the TWWH version.
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Jan 26, 2018 20:11
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Really makes you realize how valuable + replenishment heroes are when you start thinking about how much you pay to keep that army sitting around replenishing.
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Jan 26, 2018 20:13
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Do redline buffs and the like affect autoresolve? It's a bit opaque.
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Jan 26, 2018 20:30
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Arglebargle III posted:This is less different from other factions than you suggest. Recruitment costs are usually about 5 turns of maintenance cost. Replacing an entire army of 20 units costs around 5 turns of maintaining that army, depending on how fast you recruit. Most factions can choose to just have a diminished military for a few turns in order to save up for a big building. Tomb kings can't. And that's really the problem with TK: a lack of options. Nearly every single piece of advice here has been "meat shield + arrows ==> Ushtabi. Also chariots maybe." If you find that play style unappealing, you're pretty screwed. Not only that, but many of the TK units are redundant: Their only chariots are nearly identical. The're cavalry is nearly identical. They only have 1 usable ranged units (their artillery needs some serious buffs). Their infantry is blander (and worse) than VC. The only part of the entire lineup that stands out is the constructs, and those take a long time to get to.
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Jan 26, 2018 20:36
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I dont know posted:Wasn't one of the jokes of the older edition that, for an average person, living under vampire lords wasn't particularly worse and in some cases better than a living sovereign? Yeah the Count or Duke that Vlad replaced was a huge piece of poo poo, so the peasants went from “our ruler tortures us for fun like a psychopath treats small animals” to “our ruler keeps us alive and occasionally eats one of us like a farmer treats livestock” so definitely an improvement but not exactly peasant heaven
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Jan 26, 2018 20:37
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Being Lord Mazdamundi kicks serious rear end though so it's kind of like that buzzfeed comic where one person getting to be him causes more happiness than the rest of the world suffering causes unhappiness
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Jan 26, 2018 20:41
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Something that hasn't been mentioned yet is that all the provincial commandments and post battle options are really good for Tomb Kings. The growth one also gives bonus movement which stacks with bonus movement infrastructure buildings. Getting construction discounts is crucial since that's where most of your money will go. Their post battle options are also great. Money AND bonus movement? Sweet. Replenishment AND replenishment over the next several turns? Fantastic. Harvesting the organs of the enemy?  as gently caress. Since getting jars is always a flat value, I tend to use it on small enemy armies. The bonus movement can be used in conjunction with buildings and commandments to allow you to quickly dart out of your province to catch an enemy that was previously out of reach.
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Jan 26, 2018 20:46
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Mordja posted:Life in the Empire is probably much like life in any other early-modern, European state, just with a bit more religious tolerance and a bit more horrifying warp monstrosities appearing and wreaking havoc at any given time and the occasional civilization-threatening hellwar. Replace the hellbeings with the black death and it's basically the same thing
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Jan 26, 2018 20:49
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The Lore of Nehekara buffs being single target bugs me. One thing that could be done to make them way better is to somewhat Nerf some by make them  SKELETONS ONLY . But in exchange, overcasting those buffs has the buff affect every unit of that type. So overcast it on a basic skeleton sword unit and ALL of your basic skeleton swords and spears get buffed. Do it on a chariot and every unit on a chariot gets affected. Cast it on a lord or hero and all lords and embedded heroes in the battle are affected.
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Jan 26, 2018 20:54
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