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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Nobody knows about any Nabokov novel that isn't Lolita, and most of them haven't read that either. They're far more universal than any niche fetish anime lol
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Jan 27, 2018 20:33
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But mainly I bring it up because it's funny Also Satan angel form is v relatable god bless
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Jan 27, 2018 20:34
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he straight up went out of his way to say legit examples like yandare aren't the issue and that things like autistic child geniuses are, dude is a bafoon lmao
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Jan 27, 2018 20:38
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Watch Space Dandy if you haven't already, because it was criminally underrated and showcased so many different directors and animation houses/styles. The episode directed by Yuasa is one of the most chill things to watch. My favorite Watanabe thing might be Kids on the Slope, but it's been a while since I've seen that. I think prefer Champloo to Bebop, mostly because sci-fi isn't a huge interest of mine and the tone of Champloo is overall more appealing, but things like Faye finding the tape of her younger self still make me cry. anime good Expect My Mom fucked around with this message at 20:44 on Jan 27, 2018 |
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Jan 27, 2018 20:41
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DisDisDis posted:Also Satan angel form is v relatable god bless I don't remember if it's Psycho Jenny or another demon, but someone calls them "Noble, Beautiful and Benign" after their transformation and I've had that description pleasantly stuck in my head for weeks now
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Jan 27, 2018 20:41
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Bloodyshinta1 posted:he straight up went out of his way to say legit examples like yandare aren't the issue and that things like autistic child geniuses are, dude is a bafoon lmao I definitely didn’t do the first thing, and actually quoted the guy who made the a tsundere point and was like “yes I agree with him” You’d think people who spend all day watching subtitles would have better reading comprehension Bust Rodd fucked around with this message at 20:52 on Jan 27, 2018 |
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Jan 27, 2018 20:44
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Xinder posted:e: since we're talking about Champloo, here's a video to make it relevant: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZCofrW0am0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubSdfYqCgK8
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Jan 27, 2018 21:05
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Smoking Crow posted:Don't say trope it's a word that exists outside of the bad website, and doesn't really have any great synonyms ("cliche" is close but has an explicitly negative connotation whereas "trope" is more neutral) e: also, child geniuses are weirdly common in anime, I'll actually totally give him that one? Ed is pretty much the least "anime" example of the archetype I can think of but it's one that shows up a fuckin' lot. Hell, this very series just kind of casually drops that Ryo is a college professor and researcher in his teens.
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Jan 27, 2018 21:15
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Schwarzwald posted:Miki and other Miki don't tell us anything about their sexuality or their romantic feelings. They say they love one another. I know we're having this mostly offtopic argument and that's valid and I'm enjoying it a lot but I wanted to bring up this example of one of the classics of "they're not lesbians" posting because I think we kinda glossed over it. A lot of arguments are common to both men and women but this one in particular is incredibly frequent just with women, that romantic love between them is somehow less powerful than friendship/platonic and/or that their friendship is invalidated by their romantic feelings. Them being lesbians is "less radical" lol Always wonder if these people look at close hetero couples and wish they could become closer to each other by no longer being romantic-sexually involved. (I know they said they'd feel the same if Miko was a man and I don't buy it for a minute)
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Jan 27, 2018 22:00
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DisDisDis posted:I know we're having this mostly offtopic argument and that's valid and I'm enjoying it a lot but I wanted to bring up this example of one of the classics of "they're not lesbians" posting because I think we kinda glossed over it. A lot of arguments are common to both men and women but this one in particular is incredibly frequent just with women, that romantic love between them is somehow less powerful than friendship/platonic and/or that their friendship is invalidated by their romantic feelings. Them being lesbians is "less radical" lol Yeah, I read through the whole thread before I started posting and didn't want to bring this back up but holy poo poo was that ever a terrible post that infuriated me. For pretty much all the reasons you described here. Watching people try to bend over backwards to disprove the obvious lesbians was painful. e: Someone tried to push a trans reading on Miko and while I would support that usually, they were arguing it on the basis of her becoming more "masculine" when in fact she only became more confident, and I definitely don't like assigning confidence as a masculine trait. And also it was clear that making Miko a trans man would make them more comfortable with the relationship because at least they wouldn't be lesbians anymore. Xinder fucked around with this message at 22:10 on Jan 27, 2018 |
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Jan 27, 2018 22:07
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Once again would gladly sacrifice my humanity for the devil power of looking insanely hot in an open shirt with a sports bra
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Jan 27, 2018 22:24
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DisDisDis posted:I know we're having this mostly offtopic argument and that's valid and I'm enjoying it a lot but I wanted to bring up this example of one of the classics of "they're not lesbians" posting because I think we kinda glossed over it. A lot of arguments are common to both men and women but this one in particular is incredibly frequent just with women, that romantic love between them is somehow less powerful than friendship/platonic and/or that their friendship is invalidated by their romantic feelings. Them being lesbians is "less radical" lol 
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Jan 27, 2018 22:29
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platonic love is more radical and powerful than romantic love because it has to be achieved without people being horny. romance is rarely an interesting plot point by itself is probably intended to be romantic but i think there is something wrong with you if you care strongly either way
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Jan 27, 2018 23:03
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I think it's important that you portray gay characters not only as friends but also as lovers. Lots of anime pretends to be about romance, but it's actually really prudish when it comes to sex. It's really lazy because then you can always skirt around the issue of showing humans as physical beings.Inio Asano posted:It's a turn that you can easily see in popular opinions of Goodnight Punpun and A Girl on the Shore. […] There is a tendency to separate everything into genre. I mean, if a manga is about action, it's just meant to be action, and there's no space for sex scenes in there. […] What bothers me is the question of why you can't put sex scenes in a normal manga, since it's the most normal thing in the world. But that's why I think it's going to be harder and harder to put those scenes in my manga, because editors and readers don't expect or don't want to find some kinds of content in a story when they think it's going to be something different. Just imagine how much worse it is in a queer context. Crybaby is great because it is really explicitly about sex. If you ask me, it could stand to be a bit more clearly about LGBT sex, though. Has Clive Barker's Nightbreed come up, yet? I feel that's a very logical Western equivalent to Devilman: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-EYyYEu0LY
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Jan 28, 2018 00:10
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Expect My Mom posted:I watched like, almost all if not all of the first season of Space Dandy, and for the most part enjoyed it, but it was just a little....well I don't wanna say lowbrow, but the humor didn't always get me so I just wasn't hooked, but it was cool to say the least Most of the legit funny episodes in Space Dandy were written by the same woman, Kimiko Ueno.
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Jan 28, 2018 00:15
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the second season of space dandy has more cool, weird arthousey stuff and imo elevates it to one of the best anime ever. the ep oshiyama (as previously mentioned, one of the character designers for crybaby) did on it is just about dandy getting stuck on a fishing planet and befriending a little girl and an old man, it trades the crasser humor for weird visuals and goofy scenes of dandy just kinda hanging out with people and it owns. my favorite watanabe anime is champloo and i think space dandy's ending is on about the same level as champloo's and legit one of the best things i've seen in an anime, and it does a very effective job wrapping up a naturally scattered show into feeling like a cohesive whole basically if you liked any of the weirder eps of space dandy s1 i think you should totally give s2 a look because weird and character-focused eps are all it is The Colonel fucked around with this message at 02:52 on Jan 28, 2018 |
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Jan 28, 2018 02:48
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A World Without Sadness, Baby was my favorite of the bunch even if it didn't have any neat art gimmicks. The scene with the guitarist on the telephone lines was downright haunting.
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Jan 28, 2018 03:03
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Xinder posted:e: Someone tried to push a trans reading on Miko and while I would support that usually, they were arguing it on the basis of her becoming more "masculine" when in fact she only became more confident, and I definitely don't like assigning confidence as a masculine trait. And also it was clear that making Miko a trans man would make them more comfortable with the relationship because at least they wouldn't be lesbians anymore. Miko doesn't just become more confident, she becomes aggressive, physically dominant, prone to violence, and her entire wardrobe changes to become more sporty. Everything about the way she presents and conducts herself completely changes, and not picking up on the obvious gender cues is just obtuse. She even has the exact same physical dimensions as the other two devilmen.
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Jan 28, 2018 03:19
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Miko doesn't just become more confident, she becomes aggressive, physically dominant, prone to violence, and her entire wardrobe changes to become more sporty. Everything about the way she presents and conducts herself completely changes, and not picking up on the obvious gender cues is just obtuse. She even has the exact same physical dimensions as the other two devilmen. Yeah because if there's two thing trans men are known for it's being violent and having huge tits
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Jan 28, 2018 03:27
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Women are allowed to be physically fit and wear sports gear, those aren't exclusive to men.
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Jan 28, 2018 03:28
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huh, i didn't notice the huge tits on akira or koda. maybe time for a rewatch
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Jan 28, 2018 03:29
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You might think that acknowledging trans identities might require you to respect the nuances of intersectionally reading texts. But no. It's actually mainly useful for when you want to enforce both gender essentialism and heteronormativity in your violent titty animes
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Jan 28, 2018 03:34
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What's the name of the zombie episode in Space Dandy? I remember being really WTF in a good way, but never really bothered finishing the series. Good to know it stays good till the end.
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Jan 28, 2018 03:35
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Improbable Lobster posted:Women are allowed to be physically fit and wear sports gear, those aren't exclusive to men. i'm a woman *looks at own muscles and hands wearing martial arts gloves* wait... no... poo poo...
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Jan 28, 2018 03:35
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Miko doesn't just become more confident, she becomes aggressive, physically dominant, prone to violence, and her entire wardrobe changes to become more sporty. Everything about the way she presents and conducts herself completely changes, and not picking up on the obvious gender cues is just obtuse. She even has the exact same physical dimensions as the other two devilmen. Mercrom posted:is probably intended to be romantic but i think there is something wrong with you if you care strongly either way
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Jan 28, 2018 03:39
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rodney mullenkamp posted:Most of the legit funny episodes in Space Dandy were written by the same woman, Kimiko Ueno.
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Jan 28, 2018 03:41
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[whenever a woman acts assertively toward me] Ah, it's that classic identity I know and love, the transgender! I see you, brother!
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Jan 28, 2018 03:45
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DisDisDis posted:I know we're having this mostly offtopic argument and that's valid and I'm enjoying it a lot but I wanted to bring up this example of one of the classics of "they're not lesbians" posting because I think we kinda glossed over it. A lot of arguments are common to both men and women but this one in particular is incredibly frequent just with women, that romantic love between them is somehow less powerful than friendship/platonic and/or that their friendship is invalidated by their romantic feelings. Them being lesbians is "less radical" lol in conclusion, the horny lesbian stereotype is actually progressive. im gay.
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Jan 28, 2018 03:48
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I thought that episode where Miko orders testosterone online was out of place but I guess I was wrong
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Jan 28, 2018 03:51
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Improbable Lobster posted:I thought that episode where Miko orders testosterone online was out of place but I guess I was wrong
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Jan 28, 2018 03:54
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Improbable Lobster posted:Yeah because if there's two thing trans men are known for it's being violent and having huge tits Improbable Lobster posted:Women are allowed to be physically fit and wear sports gear, those aren't exclusive to men. Miko was physically fit before she became a devilman, but before she was a devilman she also had a clearly feminine body shape that radically changes when she undergoes the demonic transition. Women are certainly allowed to be physically fit and wear sports gear, but sporty women are also commonly considered to be Tom Boys and to have more masculine presentation than other women - and unlike Miki Miko is never coded feminine after her transition into being a devilman. Secondary sexual characteristics aren't even a defining element of gender identity, and focusing on her tits to dismiss every other transgender characteristic is reductive. You may as well be saying nobody with big tits could possibly be gender queer. It's weird how invested you all are in dismissing the only character with transgender overtones from a queer show. Pener Kropoopkin fucked around with this message at 04:14 on Jan 28, 2018 |
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Jan 28, 2018 04:08
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:It's weird how invested you all are in dismissing the only character with transgender overtones from a queer show. How dare you say that about Ryo
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Jan 28, 2018 04:15
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if anything, miko gets more feminine, getting longer hair (her braid is longer than her original hair) and eyeliner. even her devil form, a spider, has roots in femininity, for me the first thing that comes to mind is the Jorogumo, a spiderwoman yokai who eats men. spiders in general are just more linked to feminine than masculine, not even an Anime Trope Expect My Mom fucked around with this message at 04:18 on Jan 28, 2018 |
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Jan 28, 2018 04:15
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Jenny Angel posted:How dare you say that about Ryo lol Expect My Mom posted:if anything, miko gets more feminine, getting longer hair (her braid is longer than her original hair) and eyeliner. The reason spider-women are supposed to be terrifying is because they invert the dynamics of gender dominance, since spider species typically have females that are bigger and stronger than the males. There's even the rape scene that inverts what happened when Miko was raped by the photographer, because at the waterfront she's the one loving the would-be rapist and then crushes his skull while continuing to gently caress his corpse. She completely turns the tables on the gender dynamic, even to the point where she dominates Koda, which is the only character to not be depicted in his less masculine pre-devilman stage.
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Jan 28, 2018 04:26
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:Miko was physically fit before she became a devilman, but before she was a devilman she also had a clearly feminine body shape that radically changes when she undergoes the demonic transition. Women are certainly allowed to be physically fit and wear sports gear, but sporty women are also commonly considered to be Tom Boys and to have more masculine presentation than other women - and unlike Miki Miko is never coded feminine after her transition into being a devilman. Secondary sexual characteristics aren't even a defining element of gender identity, and focusing on her tits to dismiss every other transgender characteristic is reductive. You may as well be saying nobody with big tits could possibly be gender queer. You seem to be putting forth your transgender interpretation of Miko exclusively so that Miki and Miko aren't "really" lesbians. All of your arguments have relied on gender essentialist interpretations of behaviour and femininity. None of Miko's coding implies that she's transgender unless both Akira and Ryo are also transmen. Every Devilman becomes taller, more physically fit and confident after being possessed and you seem to think that only men are tall, physically fit and confident. I mean for gently caress's sake, look at your post. quote:but sporty women are also commonly considered to be Tom Boys and to have more masculine presentation than other women
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Jan 28, 2018 04:31
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:lol
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Jan 28, 2018 04:31
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Endorph posted:so wait, miko becomes a spider-woman because spiders have different gender dynamics than humans because female spiders are stronger, but then she's also meant to be a transman? so she exhibits a male gender identity by taking on traits of a female animal? wouldn't her taking on traits of an animal species that has a dominant female imply that the transformation is about her becoming a woman that can overpower men, as opposed to about becoming a man? Well you see female spiders are actually masculine
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Jan 28, 2018 04:33
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Pener Kropoopkin posted:lol I am all for the take that Miko is a transman, hell yeah why not, I couldn't and wouldn't invalidate that for anyone, but your arguments for it seems couched in gender norms rather than focusing in trans representation. Plus earlier comments that they aren't actually lesbians, before asserting that Miko is a transman just makes make me feel like it's not in good faith. I am not claiming you aren't in good faith, I just don't get a good vibe from it
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Jan 28, 2018 04:38
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i mean, the obvious intent of the design changes is that they go from being regular anime characters to being Go Nagai characters. it's fair to possibly read trans stuff into it or puberty stuff, but keep in mind you're most likely thinking past Yuasa on the subject.
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Jan 28, 2018 04:47
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Ignoring everything else for the moment because hoo boy,Pener Kropoopkin posted:She even has the exact same physical dimensions as the other two devilmen. Maybe because those are the three devilmen we actually focus on in any capacity in the show? Maybe those are aspects of being a devilman and not of masculinity??
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Jan 28, 2018 04:59
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